Laughable

[SirNitram]

[Nelson]Ha-hah[/nelson]

*Fluffy escapes and eats Singuler Quartet*

[Anarchist Bunny]

*whips out his switch-claymore and asks Fluffy if he wants some*

[Kamakazie Sith]

*whips out his switch-claymore and asks Fluffy if he wants some*

*Fluffy wips out two miniguns and plasters anarchistbunny all over the cave wall......he does this all with a big shit eating grin , then proceeds to eat the remains.*

[paladin]

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... adid=32545

29th Federation with all the fixin's Vs The empire.

It has however degenerated into an argument over time travel and how it works.

I tried to follow the logic of the agrument but it gave me a headache.

[Gil Hamilton]

I tried to follow the logic of the agrument but it gave me a headache.

It's not that hard. It may seem a bit counter-intuitive at first, but this is time travel we are talking about out.
This is how the Grandfather Paradox works and this is the classic example and where it gets it's name. You are a time traveller. You go back in time to back when your grandfather was a young man, before your father was born and you inadvertantly kill him. Since he's dead, he can't have sex and produce your father, who in turn, can't produce you. But since you never existed, how could you have travelled back in time to kill your grandfather? You can't. But heres the snag. Since you don't exist, therefore you can't kill your grandfather, nothing stops your grandfather from having your father to having you and history is where it was. Except now you do exist and you go back in time and kill your grandfather. This process repeats ad nauseum.
Logically, this can't be.
If A (you going back and killing your grandfather) leads to B (your father, and therefore, you never being born), then B leads to A never happening, and therefore A doesn't lead to B because A led to B in the first place.
Confused? You should be. It's so fundementally absurd an idea that people can't truly ever wrap their brains around, like one and one equalling three.
This is what set me off in that thread. Alyeska and some others were so business wanking off about a one-shot cop out that they ignored the logical (or rather, absurdly illogical) conclusion, then pulled out the funkiest bullshit technobabble ever thought of. Not only is it BS, but it wouldn't logically work either, as I demonstrated. Yet they wanked on, and even through "canon" at me to negate it.

This bugs me no end. What happens when you encounter a canon event so fundementally stupid and demonstratably wrong that it boggles the mind? Should it be canon? Should people dismiss it from their minds as woefully bad writing that should never be refered to ever? I've never been one to dismiss logic, my livelyhood relies on it since I'm becoming a programmer. People claim things are canon for the sake of being canon, and seem to think that canon is infallible, even when it makes no sense at all. But that seems so... dogmatic.

[Shadowhawk]

It nearly spurred me to write a Moties versus StarTrek thread.

Damn, that's evil.

I think the Culture would be hard-pressed to root out serious Motie infestation, especially if their engineers had caught glimpses of Culture vessels.

[paladin]

I tried to follow the logic of the agrument but it gave me a headache.

It's not that hard. It may seem a bit counter-intuitive at first, but this is time travel we are talking about out.
This is how the Grandfather Paradox works and this is the classic example and where it gets it's name. You are a time traveller. You go back in time to back when your grandfather was a young man, before your father was born and you inadvertantly kill him. Since he's dead, he can't have sex and produce your father, who in turn, can't produce you. But since you never existed, how could you have travelled back in time to kill your grandfather? You can't. But heres the snag. Since you don't exist, therefore you can't kill your grandfather, nothing stops your grandfather from having your father to having you and history is where it was. Except now you do exist and you go back in time and kill your grandfather. This process repeats ad nauseum.
Logically, this can't be.
If A (you going back and killing your grandfather) leads to B (your father, and therefore, you never being born), then B leads to A never happening, and therefore A doesn't lead to B because A led to B in the first place.
Confused? You should be. It's so fundementally absurd an idea that people can't truly ever wrap their brains around, like one and one equalling three.
This is what set me off in that thread. Alyeska and some others were so business wanking off about a one-shot cop out that they ignored the logical (or rather, absurdly illogical) conclusion, then pulled out the funkiest bullshit technobabble ever thought of. Not only is it BS, but it wouldn't logically work either, as I demonstrated. Yet they wanked on, and even through "canon" at me to negate it.

This bugs me no end. What happens when you encounter a canon event so fundementally stupid and demonstratably wrong that it boggles the mind? Should it be canon? Should people dismiss it from their minds as woefully bad writing that should never be refered to ever? I've never been one to dismiss logic, my livelyhood relies on it since I'm becoming a programmer. People claim things are canon for the sake of being canon, and seem to think that canon is infallible, even when it makes no sense at all. But that seems so... dogmatic.

Ok, grandfather paradox. Got it. I guess if the agrument was presented more clearly it would be understandable.

I guess when you have people that agrue like 5 year old kids, their agruments don't make much sense.

[Master of Ossus]

In some thread, I tink the poster was an Alastya or something, i was far too busy laughing, by the way thrawn, do you have the same avatar there?

Alyeska? He's one of the biggest idiots of the bunch! Virtually all of their attack on Mike Wong (the "Wong is Wrong" campaign) were written by that moron!

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Alyeska? I saw a few of his classic examples of Trekkiness on the SB forum. In one, he tried to use the "MGLT" unit to give low sublight speeds for SW ships. In another, he used the "A-wing in the Executor window" example as "proof" of weak SW hulls. You have to spew a lot of Trekkie nonsense to get 14,000+ posts. Are there any others?

[Master of Ossus]

Alyeska? I saw a few of his classic examples of Trekkiness on the SB forum. In one, he tried to use the "MGLT" unit to give low sublight speeds for SW ships. In another, he used the "A-wing in the Executor window" example as "proof" of weak SW hulls. You have to spew a lot of Trekkie nonsense to get 14,000+ posts. Are there any others?

No, he was just one of the biggest idiots. I can't even believe that he would say something like that. He really is stupid. Some other funny ones were E1701 and IXJac. Read about them in Darth Wong's Hate Mail. They're worth the price of admission!

[Gil Hamilton]

To be perfectly fair, IXJac isn't that bad. He made a mistake, agreed. On the other hand, I've witnessed him agrue against the SB Trekfolk, and he isn't as far as I know, a Trekkie at all.

[Master of Ossus]

To be perfectly fair, IXJac isn't that bad. He made a mistake, agreed. On the other hand, I've witnessed him agrue against the SB Trekfolk, and he isn't as far as I know, a Trekkie at all.

Really? He mended his ways? Do you have a link? I would love to read it. If you don't that's okay, too. I'll take your word for it.

[Alyeska]

Alyeska? I saw a few of his classic examples of Trekkiness on the SB forum. In one, he tried to use the "MGLT" unit to give low sublight speeds for SW ships. In another, he used the "A-wing in the Executor window" example as "proof" of weak SW hulls. You have to spew a lot of Trekkie nonsense to get 14,000+ posts. Are there any others?

Actually I used neither example. I used the asteroid example (ESB), but due to recent issues brought up with that example, I have left it alone untill things can be further clarified. And as to the speed issue, ANH and the time it takes to travel from Yavin to the DS rather solidifies the speed of SW fighters, or rather the acceleration capabilities.

[Master of Ossus]

Actually I used neither example. I used the asteroid example (ESB), but due to recent issues brought up with that example, I have left it alone untill things can be further clarified. And as to the speed issue, ANH and the time it takes to travel from Yavin to the DS rather solidifies the speed of SW fighters, or rather the acceleration capabilities.

NTM ICS, TPM (when the Queen's ship moved from the ground to orbit in seconds), and almost any of the books.

[Alyeska]

Actually I used neither example. I used the asteroid example (ESB), but due to recent issues brought up with that example, I have left it alone untill things can be further clarified. And as to the speed issue, ANH and the time it takes to travel from Yavin to the DS rather solidifies the speed of SW fighters, or rather the acceleration capabilities.

NTM ICS, TPM (when the Queen's ship moved from the ground to orbit in seconds), and almost any of the books.

And of course ANH when the X-Wings launch and then litterally take off like a shot through the atmosphere. I never questioned the speed of SW fighter or small strike craft. I am in somewhat of a dispute about their capital ships, but even then its a matter of acceleration, not speed.

[The Yosemite Bear]

The same Space Battles Idiots stating that cannon is greater then the fact that an object traveling at speed displaces gas, and liquids and thus can be detected.

they told me to suspend my disbelief that the law of matter no longer existed in ST or in Sea Quest.

[Alyeska]

The same Space Battles Idiots stating that cannon is greater then the fact that an object traveling at speed displaces gas, and liquids and thus can be detected.

they told me to suspend my disbelief that the law of matter no longer existed in ST or in Sea Quest.

What particular incidents are you referring to in relation to Star Trek?

[SPOOFE]

What happens when you encounter a canon event so fundementally stupid and demonstratably wrong that it boggles the mind? Should it be canon?

Then you explain it. The Grandfather Paradox in Star Trek is easily solved by remembering that there are multiple timelines, each as real as the "main" timeline (which really isn't the "main" one, it's just the one that B&B want to show us). We saw these multiple timelines in the episode where Worf was phasing between multiple timestreams, and all the different versions of the Enterprise appeared at the end.

More evidence of the multiple timelines in Trek is seen in the episode where Harry Kim tries to save Voyager from crashing, due to a Slipstream accident (was it Timeless?). He sends the data back in time to 7-of-9, which, as we saw, averted the accident. After he presses the button, he screams "Yes!" just as the Delta Flyer blows up.... but if the Trekkie argument of "Time travel fixes all" was true, that timeline would have ceased to exist the femtosecond he pressed that button. Obviously, it didn't.

This rule seems to be contradicted in Yesterday's Enterprise, where we watch a rupture in time (or something like that) actually CHANGE the timeline before our very eyes, indicating that any change in the past will change the one, dominating future. 'Course, this ignores the fact that Guinan remembered the original timeline, which would have been impossible if there were only one timestream...

First Contact also seems to act contrarily to this point of view. Perhaps the Borg had found a way to make one temporal incursion that affects all (or a significant number) of the existing timestreams? That could possibly explain why they had to travel all the way to Earth to do it (perhaps this method of "super time travel" or what-have-you doesn't allow significant physical travel from the point of incursion in order to succeed?) and why they simply didn't try again (perhaps the ability to do it was lost with that one sphere?). That explanation would explain numerous discrepancies about the FC attack... anyway, not that I put any significant weight on this theory... just tossing ideas around.

In any case, First Contact aside (the only discrepancy as far as I can tell), it's plain that the Trek argument of "Time Travel rules all" wouldn't succeed. It'd only create yet another timeline where the Empire DIDN'T win. Given the laws of probability (y'know, with infinite timelines and all), there's probably already several timelines where the Empire wouldn't win, anyway.

In any case... the argument of "ST travels back in time and kills the Empire!" would only

[SPOOFE]

Uh... ignore that last sentence. I had gone back in my post to add a new thought, and just continued on from there, and had forgotten I had begun a new paragraph...

[Vympel]

Alyeska, I thought ST and SW ships were the same speed- its absolutely certain however that Star Trek ships have much more maneuverability than any Imperial capital ship- you'll never see a Star Destroyer perform the kind of banking and turning Trek ships do; but of course this is why SW ships use turrets. If only TNG hadn't done away with the warp strafing we see in TOS; ST ships would have more of a chance. As it stands, I don't think hitting a 600m long starship with light and medium turbolasers would be any mean feat for Imp gunners- especially the light ones seeing as they're for killing starfighters.

[Alyeska]

Alyeska, I thought ST and SW ships were the same speed- its absolutely certain however that Star Trek ships have much more maneuverability than any Imperial capital ship- you'll never see a Star Destroyer perform the kind of banking and turning Trek ships do; but of course this is why SW ships use turrets. If only TNG hadn't done away with the warp strafing we see in TOS; ST ships would have more of a chance. As it stands, I don't think hitting a 600m long starship with light and medium turbolasers would be any mean feat for Imp gunners- especially the light ones seeing as they're for killing starfighters.

It is *generally* accepted that ST ships are more manueverably then SW ships. The speed issue is however currently contested. The accuracy issue is another can of worms entirely.

[NecronLord]

AHH, THE KRAKEN WAKES!!!