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Stofsk wrote: They lured the Enterprise to their planet under false pretences, across interstellar distances. Ditto to "The Menagerie" when - from several light years away - they could make Kirk believe he had the real Commodore Mendez on his shuttle. That displays incredible power in itself, but the former event shows the type of character they possess: manipulative.

But then they captured a commanding officer of a Starfleet heavy cruiser. That in itself is a hostile act. They subject Pike to intrusive mind probes and torturous scenarios. It didn't matter that they happened to be illusions, they caused pain and were 'real' in that sense. Pike was pretty self-disciplined and could break through one of the illusions (where the Talosian morphed into that hairy monster), but even that was a fluke. He still couldn't tell if the phaser had worked, nor if a hole had been blasted. Ditto for Number One, who commented that their earlier attempts to blast through the armoured door was successful, but they didn't know it because a thousand Talosians were tricking them. And Vina made the awfully important line: "You can't keep fighting them." It's true, Pike would have eventually broken.

All true, but that only applied prior to their deciding that humans were unsuitable to use for rebuiliding Talos IV. The Talosians let the Enterprise go and there was no reason to think that they would want to harm humans again. Indeed, the entire events of "The Menagerie" suggest that they were willing to take in Captain Pike as a token gesture which benefited them in no way at all.

All up, this planet would be rightfully quarantined. You reason that the Talosians are quarantined for the Federation's benefit, an idea I have no problem with. In addition to this they represent an incredibly dangerous threat, and there's no reason to trust them, because deception is an art they're master of. Both of our reasons are compatitible with each other. Humans should not become slaves to the narcotic effects of mental illusions, but in addition to this we know nothing of the society these aliens have, and there is every reason to keep the fuck away from them because of their power to manipulate on a huge scale.

Maybe, but they were through with mankind and there was no reason to think otherwise. I can think of a dozen planets with more potential for immediate harm to the Federation in TOS alone(remember the aliens from The Savage Curtain and The Empath?) over the Talosians, but only the Talosians possesed the power for the humans to destroy themselves.

The Kernel wrote:All true, but that only applied prior to their deciding that humans were unsuitable to use for rebuiliding Talos IV. The Talosians let the Enterprise go and there was no reason to think that they would want to harm humans again. Indeed, the entire events of "The Menagerie" suggest that they were willing to take in Captain Pike as a token gesture which benefited them in no way at all.

This one is a hard one to call... on one hand they seemed to do the right thing, by giving Pike the illusion of a 'normal' life the same way they gave Vina. But on the other hand... he is effectively their slave.

Perhaps this act placated them and thus they went off the 'radar screen' so to speak.

HOWEVER, what if the Magistrate was deposed and replaced with someone more adversarial? In such a scenario, having an interstellar quarantine would act as a stop-gap measure.

Maybe, but they were through with mankind and there was no reason to think otherwise.

I wouldn't take that chance, personally - not without some sort of insurance or counter. Having telepaths of my own for instance. Maybe give zampolit Consellor Troi something to do beside state the bleeding obvious.

I can think of a dozen planets with more potential for immediate harm to the Federation in TOS alone(remember the aliens from The Savage Curtain and The Empath?) over the Talosians, but only the Talosians possesed the power for the humans to destroy themselves.

Why do I get the feeling we're essentially arguing the same thing, but from different angles?

The Savage Curtain aliens were funny. Hell that entire episode was funny. Abraham Lincoln and Surak of Vulcan teaming up with Kirk and Spock against the Forces of Darkness, which comprise of a mean spirited Colonel, Kahless the Forgettable, and a female Menegele, if Mengele wore skimpy clothing... and was a woman.

The Kernel wrote:

Lord Poe wrote: No, that doesn't wash. When Kirk did his patented, "talk the computer to death" sequence, he asked the computer what the penalty for murder was. Clearly, Kirk also knew that penalty was death.

Zod's interpretation is the only one that makes sense unless you want to completely throw out what Commodore Stocker said about General Order 7 being the last death penalty on the books.

Then both cancel each other out. Kirk was bargaining for the M5 to commit suicide. Would this make sense to you: KIRK: "And what's the penalty for murder? Probation without the possibility of parole?"

Lord Poe wrote:

The Kernel wrote:

Lord Poe wrote: No, that doesn't wash. When Kirk did his patented, "talk the computer to death" sequence, he asked the computer what the penalty for murder was. Clearly, Kirk also knew that penalty was death.

Zod's interpretation is the only one that makes sense unless you want to completely throw out what Commodore Stocker said about General Order 7 being the last death penalty on the books.

Then both cancel each other out. Kirk was bargaining for the M5 to commit suicide. Would this make sense to you: KIRK: "And what's the penalty for murder? Probation without the possibility of parole?"

how do they both cancel each other out if the machine wound up killing itself? it makes more sense that it was using daystrom's morality code, which appears to be based on very traditional morality rather than the actual laws at the time. especially since personal morality can vary greatly from the laws that happen to exist at the time.

Darth_Zod wrote:how do they both cancel each other out if the machine wound up killing itself? it makes more sense that it was using daystrom's morality code, which appears to be based on very traditional morality rather than the actual laws at the time. especially since personal morality can vary greatly from the laws that happen to exist at the time.

How did Kirk know daystrom's morality code? He didn't know him personally, and McCoy didn't say anything about it. It makes more sense that Kirk was gambling on an established penalty.

Lord Poe wrote:

Darth_Zod wrote:how do they both cancel each other out if the machine wound up killing itself? it makes more sense that it was using daystrom's morality code, which appears to be based on very traditional morality rather than the actual laws at the time. especially since personal morality can vary greatly from the laws that happen to exist at the time.

How did Kirk know daystrom's morality code? He didn't know him personally, and McCoy didn't say anything about it. It makes more sense that Kirk was gambling on an established penalty.

it's been a long held tradition that the penalty for murder is death. i find it hard to believe that every human in the federation would have been able to do away with that morality ethic even during kirk's time. look at how many people today still find premarital sex extremely taboo, despite the fact that there's no longer a punishment for it.

Stofsk wrote:

Praxis wrote:Nah, they get sent to a resort- er, rehabilitation center.

Anyway, what's on Talos IV that's so important?

Hideously powerful telepaths who can control large numbers of people through illusions, who were determined to make human explorers into a slave race - whether or not they even survive to Picard's day and beyond is unknown. It was implied they were dying out and that a human slave population was essential to restore themselves to former greatness.

If this were ever the case, the galaxy would be in some serious shit. Pike was pretty disciplined and fought the Talosians mind war, but he's just one man. And he only got out of that situation by earnestly preparing to commit suicide, with Number One following suit. If the Talosians could capture another ship of hapless explorers they could conceivably have a disproportionate effect on galactic affairs.

oooohhhh fanfic idea.....