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For some reason, using the Force to directly harm someone is worse than harming someone while using the Force.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

CmdrWilkens wrote:Well there are a couple reasons. From the Annotated Screenplays pg313:
The Emperor raises his arms toward Luke. Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning. shoot from the Emperor's hands...

True. But how does htis preclude other versions of Force lightning? Does canon somehow decree it can only exist as one type, and only be used one way?

No but lacking the AOTC novelisation that's the only canon mention of it and it does lean hevily towards the lightning being a corruption of the Force. In other words gits not proof but an indication.

Also from the novelisation (sofcover trilogy edition pg 454)
"the young Jedi was at once counfounded and in agony-he'd never heard of such a power, such a corruption of the Force, let alone experienced it."

This is from Luke's POV - he's hardly an experienced Jedi at this time, and as we know from the prequels, ALOT of knowledge was lost and had to be rediscovered. Luke's perception of it as "evil" does not preclude other versions.
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Luke was trained by Yoda, rather extensively accordin to the ESB novelisation and his training, while not complete, would undoubtably have covered a great deal of ground concerning the Dark Side and its powers. Furthermore the novelisation was told third person omniscient thus the narrator is explaining what Luke is experiencing thsu it isn't Luke's perception but rather the narrator telling us what was happening to Luke.

Now the why I leave up to others to deal with but its pretty clear from the canon materials that Force Lightning is a corruption of nature and it is inherently evil.

Again, how does this preclude one version being evil, and that there cannot be any others?

When you see an event and it is described one way (and it is directly linked with evil), then you see it again (AOTC) then you see it again (Zahn trilogy), etc you start to see a pattern. Basically the pattern indicates that it is most likely evil. now you can't prove that there is nto a non-evil version, but that would be proving a negative. The weight of the evidence links Force Lightning with evil and thats good enough for me.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

CmdrWilkens wrote:

Captain Lennox wrote:Great, job EU writers*Scratches a mark on the wall for yet another EU fuck up*

I honestly think the biggest EU fuckup hasn't been how they've dealt with Force Lightning its hat they've dealt with it at all. It seem clear, at least to me, from the novelisation that this is an extremely odd Force-Power so it is not one that we shoudl see being wielded by every Tom, Dick, and Hairy Jedi/Sith out there.

We've seen exactly two people using it in canon. Hardly enough proof to know how "common" it is. Perhaps the "darkside" variant is rare, but that doesnt mean other versions (like what Jacen used) are.

And as mentioned before, Yoda appeared to have little trouble dealing with it.

1) Presuming 2 variants is, I think, a leap of logic.

2) Yoda dealing with it makes me MROE confident that it is rare. just think, Yoda has experienced it yet he apparently didn't even THINK to tell Luke that the Emperor might use it? Think about it, Yoda has to know , by TESB, that Dooku was an apprentic of the Emperor so why would he NOT tell Luke that the Emperor might use it? Remember Luke ahd never even heard of the possibility of such a thing as Force Lgihtning and his master had dealt with it before. This suggests to me that it is such a rare power that Yoda did not think it likely at all that Luke would ever see it.

Best to assume that there's an inherently evil and malevolent form of lightning powered by pure malice, hatred, and evil. And there's a toned-down, dangerous but not inherently evil not neccessarily deadly varient.

CmdrWilkens wrote: No but lacking the AOTC novelisation that's the only canon mention of it and it does lean hevily towards the lightning being a corruption of the Force. In other words gits not proof but an indication.

Fortunately we don't have to restrict ourselves to just canon. Unless the other examples of Force lightning are directly contradicted by canon (which is what I'm asking), they stand.

Luke was trained by Yoda, rather extensively accordin to the ESB novelisation and his training, while not complete, would undoubtably have covered a great deal of ground concerning the Dark Side and its powers.

We see that Jedi are trained from a young age - many years (even decades) are spent in training a Jedi (Obi Wan was what - 20-25? And still not a full Knight?) Luke had maybe at most a couple years of training prior to dealing with the Emperor. While its entirely possible he received quite an extensive amount of training, this by no means proves that his knowledge would preclude other "abilities."

Besides, we're talking about versions of Force Lightning that aren't neccesarily darkside abilities. If they are a very rare discipline as you have argued (Which I concede is entirely possible) this could very well argue in favor of Luke's ignorance of other forms.

Furthermore the novelisation was told third person omniscient thus the narrator is explaining what Luke is experiencing thsu it isn't Luke's perception but rather the narrator telling us what was happening to Luke.

Granted regarding the perspective, but it still indicates that the statement is only true to Luke's knowledge (IE "he'd never heard of.."), which is my point.

When you see an event and it is described one way (and it is directly linked with evil), then you see it again (AOTC) then you see it again (Zahn trilogy), etc you start to see a pattern. Basically the pattern indicates that it is most likely evil. now you can't prove that there is nto a non-evil version, but that would be proving a negative. The weight of the evidence links Force Lightning with evil and thats good enough for me.

Its not required that the "non evil" versions be common. Simply that they exist.

CmdrWilkens wrote: 1) Presuming 2 variants is, I think, a leap of logic.

No, we know it exists, and to my knowledge it isn't contradicted by canon. It may be a leap of logic for me to assume it might be common though, since (if we include the EU) there are more examples of the "Evil" version than any other.

2) Yoda dealing with it makes me MROE confident that it is rare. just think, Yoda has experienced it yet he apparently didn't even THINK to tell Luke that the Emperor might use it? Think about it, Yoda has to know , by TESB, that Dooku was an apprentic of the Emperor so why would he NOT tell Luke that the Emperor might use it? Remember Luke ahd never even heard of the possibility of such a thing as Force Lgihtning and his master had dealt with it before. This suggests to me that it is such a rare power that Yoda did not think it likely at all that Luke would ever see it.

I can agree with the lightside version as being rare, I simply argue that it DOES exist. (Most light-side versions of powers that tread close to Darkside abilities, like Mace Windu's "Form VII" lightsaber style, tend to be rare.)

IG-88E wrote:(Force lighting=Dark lightning)=bullshit

Plo Koon, a member of the Jedi Council, uses Force lighting.

I forgot to ask. Source? I seem to recall seeing this before myself, but I can't find the place where.

It may have been those plastic toys with visible force power attachments that was discussed some weeks back. I'm not sure, maybe something else in the same timeframe

Connor MacLeod wrote:

CmdrWilkens wrote: 1) Presuming 2 variants is, I think, a leap of logic.

No, we know it exists, and to my knowledge it isn't contradicted by canon. It may be a leap of logic for me to assume it might be common though, since (if we include the EU) there are more examples of the "Evil" version than any other.

Given that Destiny's Way is the first time I've ever heard of Force Lightning NOT being associated with evil I'd say so. However I'm still very skeptical and I want to go read that passage for myself. I also need to go get the WOTC sourcebook for Force Powers, I'm slacking since I normally have a PDD up within a week of a new WOTC sourcebook coming out.

2) Yoda dealing with it makes me MORE confident that it is rare. just think, Yoda has experienced it yet he apparently didn't even THINK to tell Luke that the Emperor might use it? Think about it, Yoda has to know , by TESB, that Dooku was an apprentic of the Emperor so why would he NOT tell Luke that the Emperor might use it? Remember Luke ahd never even heard of the possibility of such a thing as Force Lgihtning and his master had dealt with it before. This suggests to me that it is such a rare power that Yoda did not think it likely at all that Luke would ever see it.

I can agree with the lightside version as being rare, I simply argue that it DOES exist. (Most light-side versions of powers that tread close to Darkside abilities, like Mace Windu's "Form VII" lightsaber style, tend to be rare.)

I think, in general, that its a fuckup on the part of the EU to have Force Lightning so prevelant both evil and "good" versiosn of it. Basically the Light side has rarely, if truly ever, used it and Yoda apparently didn't even contemplate telling Luke about it (since he had never even heard of it) which suggests the Dark Side variant shoudl be extemely rare as well.

This is an RPG brainbug, originated by WEG, and carried on by WOTC, that would have you believe that just about anything you did that hurt anyone or anything with the Force would give you a Darkside point. These same people had every named high ranking Imperial with at least 4-5 times the number of Darkside points necessary to completely corrupt any player character beyond the most remote possibility of redemption. 7 Darkside points and Bam, instant evil NPC.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

IG-88E wrote:(Force lighting=Dark lightning)=bullshit

Plo Koon, a member of the Jedi Council, uses Force lighting.

I forgot to ask. Source? I seem to recall seeing this before myself, but I can't find the place where.

Jedi Power Battles. Plo Koon has an attack called Electric Judgement, which is an orange bolt of lightning. It should be noted, however, that the Jedi Power Battles guide describes the power as "inherently dark."

I think that Force Lightning's nature makes it difficult for a person who isn't a Dark adept to use. Since the attack hits you with electricity, stunning, wounding, or even killing, only a Light adept who understands the fine distinction between light and dark can use the attack effectively while remaining Light.

Just watched AotC with commentary. Lucas states that the Force lightning used by Dooku is a Sith power.

Using a lightsaber isn't dark becasue it's YOU using it. Force Zap is completely using the Force to harm someone, which is a Very Bad Thing (ref. Yoda)

Lightsiders use the Force to enhance their own powers. Sith use the Force to do their job for them. There's a difference.

Sardaukar wrote:Just watched AotC with commentary. Lucas states that the Force lightning used by Dooku is a Sith power.

Well to make Connor's point for him that doesn;'t mean that ALL Force Lightning is evil there does seem to be at least one competing example in the EU to suggest a Light Side variant though I personaly remain skeptical.

Yoda said to never use the Force for attack, only for defense and knowledge.

Uraniun235 wrote:Yoda said to never use the Force for attack, only for defense and knowledge.

But we see the force being used in an attack by means of a force push. If a Jedi needs to attack something in order to defend him/her self then force lightning would become an option?

There is a line between taking the advantage in a fight and being the aggressor. If the bad guy had you down and was about to chop your head off with his sabre, then wouldn't it be defense to fry the guy with the force?

Wave of energy to push someone away is a decideably defensive action. Picking someone up and crushing them into a wall is a decidably offensive action. These is the RPG analysis: even "neutral" powers can be sufficiently used aggressively and viciously to be dark. Some powers, like slowly choking someone, or frying them with life-stealing energy are hard to view other then vicious and done with the desire to cause pain and anguish, especially when alternatives are open to the Jedi, like Force push and Force lance.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Wave of energy to push someone away is a decideably defensive action. Picking someone up and crushing them into a wall is a decidably offensive action. These is the RPG analysis: even "neutral" powers can be sufficiently used aggressively and viciously to be dark. Some powers, like slowly choking someone, or frying them with life-stealing energy are hard to view other then vicious and done with the desire to cause pain and anguish, especially when alternatives are open to the Jedi, like Force push and Force lance.

Ok, but my thinking is that it is the intent of the user that determins the light/dark of the force use. Luke choked the guards at Jabba's, various Jedi use the force to guide their sabre's for slice and dice manuvers and this did not appear to make them any darker.

And I don't think you can say that guiding the sabre with the force is a defensive thing. If you use the force to deflect blaster, then sure, but to use it to directly guide the sabre enabling it to cut somebody up is the same as using the force to throw an object at someone.

As to the rarity of the lightning, Obi knew to deflect Dooku's attack with his sabre. Did he know that it would block it? Or was it just a reflexive action? If he knew it could be blocked then that would imply that the Jedi are well aware of this attack and know at least one method to repel it.

Knife wrote:

Uraniun235 wrote:Yoda said to never use the Force for attack, only for defense and knowledge.

But we see the force being used in an attack by means of a force push. If a Jedi needs to attack something in order to defend him/her self then force lightning would become an option?

There is a line between taking the advantage in a fight and being the aggressor. If the bad guy had you down and was about to chop your head off with his sabre, then wouldn't it be defense to fry the guy with the force?

That in itself could be the argument for Force Lightning being "evil". If somebody were attacking you, is it more benign to restrain him using the Force (or maybe even push him away) or zap him with Force Lightning, which we know causes pain and can kill. Jedi are not supposed to use the Force to attack. What it does not say, however, is that you can't use the Force to aid your OWN attack. Basically the Force is a passive "aid" so to speak, rather than taking an active role in the pain/death/dismemberment/whathaveyou.

Knife wrote:As to the rarity of the lightning, Obi knew to deflect Dooku's attack with his sabre. Did he know that it would block it? Or was it just a reflexive action? If he knew it could be blocked then that would imply that the Jedi are well aware of this attack and know at least one method to repel it.

Well, according to Dark Force Rising, you can treat the lightning as a blaster bolt and use the Force to guide the blade into the path of the lightning. That's how I always thought of it.