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Mange the Swede wrote:
About the replicator, there is one advantage. A star ship (such as the Enterprise or whatever) don't need to carry tons of supplies. Even though the food, according to some, is tasteless it seems to provide the necessary nutrients. One thing that hasn't been completely established is what the replicator uses to, hrmmm, replicate food (and other stuff). According to the non-canon Star Trek TNG TM, the replicators uses *technobabble*, lets see if I can narrow it down... organic particulate suspension as well as refuse to replicate food, whereas Janeway mentions in a Voyager episode (can't remember what it's called) that "There is coffee in that nebula", thus indicating the use of the Bussard collectors. What's the word on this?

Um, surely it would have to carry tonnes of matter to create everything with, which would equate to the same amount of mass anyway. As for collecting through the bussard, when have we ever seen this done on screen (for the purpose of replicator restocking...)

Jon wrote:

Mange the Swede wrote:
About the replicator, there is one advantage. A star ship (such as the Enterprise or whatever) don't need to carry tons of supplies. Even though the food, according to some, is tasteless it seems to provide the necessary nutrients. One thing that hasn't been completely established is what the replicator uses to, hrmmm, replicate food (and other stuff). According to the non-canon Star Trek TNG TM, the replicators uses *technobabble*, lets see if I can narrow it down... organic particulate suspension as well as refuse to replicate food, whereas Janeway mentions in a Voyager episode (can't remember what it's called) that "There is coffee in that nebula", thus indicating the use of the Bussard collectors. What's the word on this?

Um, surely it would have to carry tonnes of matter to create everything with, which would equate to the same amount of mass anyway. As for collecting through the bussard, when have we ever seen this done on screen (for the purpose of replicator restocking...)

Yes, this was the point that I wanted to make, but the Bussard collectors seems to have been used for this purpose. Does anyone have more info on this?

EDIT: I found the following on the Net and thought it was suitable to include as it has a direct connection to the topic:

Economy:
Overview: The Federation has a massive socialist economy built around large scale, inexpensive production of almost all consumer goods. No money is used for all basic expenses (food, clothing, shelter). A large scale heavy industrial base can build almost anything. The economy is in a wartime production mode because of the recent war with the Klingons, the Borg threat, and the Dominion threat.
Unemployment Rate: 1%
Budget: 2.98 Trillion Credits (FY 2372)
Industrial Production: growth rate +1.9% (2372)
Industries & Agriculture: large-scale replication, starship/space station construction, Pharmaceutical agriculture, computer programming, asteroid mining, antimatter production
Illicit Drugs: illicit producer of cannabis for domestic consumption; significant production of Romulan Ale, and Brekkian Felicium
Fisical Year: Calendar Year
Source: http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a9825447/startrek/ufp.htm

Unfortunately the main site this material belongs to was down (the site is hosted over at the University of Vienna). Does anyone recognize this material? It's impossible to judge the contents without knowing the source (it's obviously far from canon), but it does have some interesting contents, especially in regards to the the unemployment rate which is something I brought up in the first post.

Mange the Swede wrote:aneway mentions in a Voyager episode (can't remember what it's called) that "There is coffee in that nebula", thus indicating the use of the Bussard collectors. What's the word on this?

IIRC, the replicators were off/rationed not because of lack of replicator mass, but because they use lots of energy, and Voyager was short on fuel.
As finding hydrogen in a nebula isn't exactly uncommon, that would at least have provided them with fuel for their impulse engines, giving them power for utilities if not warp capacity.
As finding antimatter in the most unlikely places, leave alone amounts, isn't exactly uncommon in Voyager, that may have even given them fuel for the Warp drive...

Incidentally, 'There is cofee in that nebula' is one of Voyagers very few noteworthy quotes, imho.

Mange the Swede wrote:Because of the replicators, the vast majority of the Federation citizens must be unemployed, then what are they doing

I always thought they invented the holodeck. We don't see that, but what else could they do? Makes sense to me.

A basic problem with ST is that we are seeing society from a pretty uniform point of view, i.e. the military. Furthermore, in most places we see the military while 'on duty' i.e. they are away from their supply base and consequently it's more important to ration things out to the crew than to just let the dollar dictate supply. This is very achievable in a closed loop like this.

The truth is, we can speculate a lot about the Federation, but there really is very little to back up this speculation, and most of it contradicts itself. Consider replicators, transporters and the like. The idea that replicators can't replicate complex objects is ludicrous, yet it's necessary to the plotline. After all, the transporter works on the same principle, and it can create a warp core, or antimatter or dsilithoum crystals. Essentially, you have a source of perpetual energy - you can create the fuel to keep the machine running (and I won't hear any argument that the memory buffer isn't big enough. It was big enough to keep Kira and everyone alive in that DS9 episode - all you need to do is duplicate what you're beaming over. Beam it onto 2 pads, not one.

If I had to speculate on the Federation's societal role, i would guess some kind of socialism. It's definitely not marxism (or communism - most people mean marxism when they say communism and are thinking of Stalinist Russia at the same time - in essence most people are DEAD WRONG about Marxism.) I would guess there is some kind of compulsory education/work on the main Federation planets - at least Earth and possibly Vulcan. But I'm also led to believe that there is some distance between the ideal and some of the newer Federation planets. Capitalism may run rampant there, and poverty along with it. I'm closer to believing that poverty and most of the social ills are gone from earth than not believing that by TNG, which is not that bad. Marxism isn't a bad idea, per se, just difficult to implament.

hewhocaves wrote:A basic problem with ST is that we are seeing society from a pretty uniform point of view, i.e. the military. Furthermore, in most places we see the military while 'on duty' i.e. they are away from their supply base and consequently it's more important to ration things out to the crew than to just let the dollar dictate supply. This is very achievable in a closed loop like this.

This is a common Trekkie claim, even though every glimpse we see of civilian life in the Federation is consistent with a communist economy throughout the Federation, as are character statements regarding the entire Federation (such as the non-existence of money and investment).

hewhocaves wrote:The truth is, we can speculate a lot about the Federation, but there really is very little to back up this speculation, and most of it contradicts itself. Consider replicators, transporters and the like. The idea that replicators can't replicate complex objects is ludicrous, yet it's necessary to the plotline.

There's nothing ludicrous about it. Replicators are known to leave microscopic errors in objects that they create. The more complex the item being created, the greater the chance that one of such errors will make the replicated item unusable.

hewhocaves wrote: After all, the transporter works on the same principle, and it can create a warp core, or antimatter or dsilithoum crystals.

Please cite incidents in which a transporter has created any of these things.

hewhocaves wrote: Essentially, you have a source of perpetual energy - you can create the fuel to keep the machine running (and I won't hear any argument that the memory buffer isn't big enough.

Do the laws of thermodynamics mean nothing to you? Replicators and transporters consume energy to do their work; they can't create something that contains more chemical energy than the system used to put it together.

hewhocaves wrote:It was big enough to keep Kira and everyone alive in that DS9 episode

Actually, it wasn't. Their patterns were decaying and they would have died if O'Brien had managed to transfer them to the holodeck, where their physical patterns were essentially kept alive as mindless bodies animated by the holodeck program. Their computer was able to store their memories, but that took every bit of storage capacity on the station.

hewhocaves wrote: - all you need to do is duplicate what you're beaming over. Beam it onto 2 pads, not one.

This worked once and it might be possible to duplicate the event, but the mass and energy for the duplicate still have to come from somewhere, which means you at least have to have the raw materials available.

hewhocaves wrote:If I had to speculate on the Federation's societal role, i would guess some kind of socialism. It's definitely not marxism (or communism - most people mean marxism when they say communism and are thinking of Stalinist Russia at the same time - in essence most people are DEAD WRONG about Marxism.)

Federation economic policy is consistent with the goals of Marx's Communist Manifesto.

hewhocaves wrote: I would guess there is some kind of compulsory education/work on the main Federation planets - at least Earth and possibly Vulcan. But I'm also led to believe that there is some distance between the ideal and some of the newer Federation planets. Capitalism may run rampant there, and poverty along with it. I'm closer to believing that poverty and most of the social ills are gone from earth than not believing that by TNG, which is not that bad. Marxism isn't a bad idea, per se, just difficult to implament.

Marxism is based on several baseless assumptions that make the entire idea unworkable. You might try reading the relevant essay on the main site.

Alferd Packer wrote:I noticed on DS9 the other day that in the Sisko restaurant, there were no brand labels on anything. He probably gets everything from a Federation outlet place that grows fresh food, and replicates the processed stuff, like the brandless hot sauce.

Why would replicated anything have a brand label?

Because somebody must have programmed the sauce, who in turn might have been working for someone else, ie. a corporation which has a deal with another corporation that's constructing the replicators...

Wired_Grenadier wrote:Because somebody must have programmed the sauce, who in turn might have been working for someone else, ie. a corporation which has a deal with another corporation that's constructing the replicators...

Or some guy in a kitchen somewhere came up with a sauce, put it in his replicator to get the patern so he could distribute it. There is copy righting in the Federation it seems, there was the episode with the Doctor's book Photons be Free and how he didn't have a say in its distribution as a non-person. And I think the guy who made the Vic Fontain holoprogram was suposed to be a profesional.