Buffy Canon

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2004-09-30 11:49am

Majin Gojira wrote:Those that have are major players, usually: Darla (400), Drusilla (150+), The Master (Officially 500 years, but I lean more towards 900 myself), Dracula (500), Kakistose (Unknown), Pen (200), etc....

According to Monster Smackdown, Kakistos "could remember a time when Constantinople was Byzantium". Now, as Emperor Constantine founded Constantinople (or renamed it, however one counts these things) in 324 AD, that would make Kakistos more than 670 years old.

I really tend to view Joseph Heinrich Nest / The Master as a younger, more intellectual vampire, who nevertheless managed to amass considerable power. It's a pity Kakistos was so (relatively) stupid and brutish - his powers appeared mainly to have developed along the lines of resilience and strength. Had he developed in the direction of the Master or Dracula, I submit he would have become far more dangerous.

Is there any way to ascertain if Monster Smackdown is on the level, here? I'm pretty sure it's not part of established canonicity... right?

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-09-30 01:32pm

It probably is, unless something in the series contradicts it. Joss and Eden Studios have a good relationship, they're even coming up with Kendra and Faith's last names for the Watchers Council suplement (when that will come out is anyones guess at this point).

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2004-09-30 03:41pm

Majin Gojira wrote:It probably is, unless something in the series contradicts it. Joss and Eden Studios have a good relationship, they're even coming up with Kendra and Faith's last names for the Watchers Council suplement (when that will come out is anyones guess at this point).

True, Carella and the gang certainly seem to respect the source material. The games and their supplements have been uniformly excellent - I find myself hard pressed at finding any Buffy/Angel module I didn't like unreservedly, and that kind of quality is vanishingly rare nowadays.

I especially like the distinction between Sorcery and Occultism - it prevents competent Occultists like Ethan, Angel or Giles from throwing fireballs all over the place. But other stuff is cool, too. For writers of Buffy fanfic, there's very little that can beat the Guide to Buffyspeak section, for example.

Anyway, to get back to the topic at hand, the whole Buffy cosmology seemed to start out fairly Cthuluoid. Giles' line about "waiting for the Old Ones to return" is a pretty good indication. Of course, crosses and holy water have always been effective against BuffyVamps, and while there's only one Angel (heh), there does seem to be a hell (or two, or three...)

(BTW, Eden's gonna launch another Unisystem RPG soon. Groovy.)

Demiurge · Post by **Demiurge** » 2004-09-30 04:33pm

Majin Gojira wrote: Those that have are major players, usually: Darla (400), Drusilla (150+), The Master (Officially 500 years, but I lean more towards 900 myself), Dracula (500), Kakistose (Unknown), Pen (200), etc....

James (from Angel's 3rd season premiere) was also pretty strong. He was, IIRC, around 200.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-09-30 05:22pm

At this point I want to mention that White Wolf wanted to do the Buffy RPG, and I shudder to think what would happen if they had gotten the job...

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2004-09-30 10:05pm

Majin Gojira wrote:They didn't turn themselves into bats--they were Anthropamorphized Bat Monsters...that were GREEN

Here's one shot of them

Here's another

Plus, these Bat-Monsters were bestial creatures of low inteligence.

They look like vampires from Melchia's clan, mixed with a little bit of Dumah.

Eleas wrote:I especially like the distinction between Sorcery and Occultism - it prevents competent Occultists like Ethan, Angel or Giles from throwing fireballs all over the place. But other stuff is cool, too. For writers of Buffy fanfic, there's very little that can beat the Guide to Buffyspeak section, for example.

Then what's the explanation for Wesley's fireball in the Angel finale?

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2004-09-30 11:45pm

Iguana wrote:
Eleas wrote:I especially like the distinction between Sorcery and Occultism - it prevents competent Occultists like Ethan, Angel or Giles from throwing fireballs all over the place. But other stuff is cool, too. For writers of Buffy fanfic, there's very little that can beat the Guide to Buffyspeak section, for example.
Then what's the explanation for Wesley's fireball in the Angel finale?

Well, first of all, the Angel RPG was made before the finale, IIRC. I haven't seen the finale, but there are two possibilities. Either the fireball is a comparatively weak one that can be instantanously cast by anyone, or Wesley's done bought himself a level or two in Sorcery in time for the finale.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-10-01 12:19am

From the episode it takes a bit of time to form it, but then he just sends it out pretty quick.

He also says something along the lines of "the first thing a watcher learns is to separate truth from illusion. In the world of magicks it's one of the hardest things to do."

It would seem he was trained in some type of magic. Or at least the ability to recognize it and deal with it.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2004-10-01 01:43am

neoolong wrote:From the episode it takes a bit of time to form it, but then he just sends it out pretty quick.

He also says something along the lines of "the first thing a watcher learns is to separate truth from illusion. In the world of magicks it's one of the hardest things to do."

It would seem he was trained in some type of magic. Or at least the ability to recognize it and deal with it.

Mmm. I guess what I meant to say was that in the Buffy game, any competent occultist can do the time-consuming magic shit. Additionally, a certain very few spells can be cast by anyone in a short period of time. But if you are a true witch or warlock, in possession of the Sorcery levels, you can "quick-cast" most spells with a word. Certain stuff, like summoning rituals, can't be quick-cast even if you're a true witch.

All in all, it fits the series very closely, to my mind.

Demiurge · Post by **Demiurge** » 2004-10-01 01:03pm

By the time of the finale Wesley has access to a shitload of powerful magic in W&H's library. It's like the time Giles used borrowed magic to fight Willow. He was throwing around fireballs, too.

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2004-10-02 04:35pm

Eleas wrote:According to Monster Smackdown, Kakistos "could remember a time when Constantinople was Byzantium". Now, as Emperor Constantine founded Constantinople (or renamed it, however one counts these things) in 324 AD, that would make Kakistos more than 670 years old.

He was the oldest vampire known to be alive (Giles, Pilot), if that's any help. I assume Kakistos was supposed to be dead, but based on his extreme vampiric features (cloven hooves etc) I would date him back much further than 324AD.

As a vampire in School Hard *claims* to be over 2000 years old, (he proabbly wand't, but the others seemed to believe him, except Spike) I would probably date Kakitos before that. Possibly much before that.

Demiurge · Post by **Demiurge** » 2004-10-02 05:46pm

InnerBrat wrote:
Eleas wrote:According to Monster Smackdown, Kakistos "could remember a time when Constantinople was Byzantium". Now, as Emperor Constantine founded Constantinople (or renamed it, however one counts these things) in 324 AD, that would make Kakistos more than 670 years old.
He was the oldest vampire known to be alive (Giles, Pilot), if that's any help. I assume Kakistos was supposed to be dead, but based on his extreme vampiric features (cloven hooves etc) I would date him back much further than 324AD.

As a vampire in School Hard *claims* to be over 2000 years old, (he proabbly wand't, but the others seemed to believe him, except Spike) I would probably date Kakitos before that. Possibly much before that.

Kakistos was much younger than the Master. His only inhuman features were his hooves. He otherwise looked like a normal vampire. The Master, however, looked entirely like a demon.

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2004-10-02 06:29pm

Demiurge wrote: Kakistos was much younger than the Master. His only inhuman features were his hooves. He otherwise looked like a normal vampire. The Master, however, looked entirely like a demon.

Kakistos' cloven hooves were a direct result of his age ("a vampire so old his hands and feet are cloven" - Giles). There's any number of reasons why the Master looked like he did (although it was age-related).

Demiurge · Post by **Demiurge** » 2004-10-02 07:41pm

InnerBrat wrote:
Demiurge wrote: Kakistos was much younger than the Master. His only inhuman features were his hooves. He otherwise looked like a normal vampire. The Master, however, looked entirely like a demon.
Kakistos' cloven hooves were a direct result of his age ("a vampire so old his hands and feet are cloven" - Giles). There's any number of reasons why the Master looked like he did (although it was age-related).

"The Master has grown past the curse of human features." -Darla

I think it's safe to assume that their conditions are both caused by simple age. The Master's being greater.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2004-10-02 08:09pm

Demiurge wrote:
InnerBrat wrote:
Demiurge wrote: Kakistos was much younger than the Master. His only inhuman features were his hooves. He otherwise looked like a normal vampire. The Master, however, looked entirely like a demon.
Kakistos' cloven hooves were a direct result of his age ("a vampire so old his hands and feet are cloven" - Giles). There's any number of reasons why the Master looked like he did (although it was age-related).
"The Master has grown past the curse of human features." -Darla

I think it's safe to assume that their conditions are both caused by simple age. The Master's being greater.

I'm sorry, but I hear an unspoken "because I say so", here.

...I just don't get where your proof comes from, really. We have one definite statement from an official (or semi-official) source that Kakistos is the oldest, and none to oppose it. So I guess I just question your absolute conviction on this matter.

Demiurge · Post by **Demiurge** » 2004-10-02 10:40pm

Eleas wrote:
Demiurge wrote:
InnerBrat wrote:Kakistos' cloven hooves were a direct result of his age ("a vampire so old his hands and feet are cloven" - Giles). There's any number of reasons why the Master looked like he did (although it was age-related).
"The Master has grown past the curse of human features." -Darla

I think it's safe to assume that their conditions are both caused by simple age. The Master's being greater.
I'm sorry, but I hear an unspoken "because I say so", here.

...I just don't get where your proof comes from, really. We have one definite statement from an official (or semi-official) source that Kakistos is the oldest, and none to oppose it. So I guess I just question your absolute conviction on this matter.

What source is that? I'm going by Giles' statement that the Master is the oldest vampire on record. He didn't seem at all surprised that Kakistos was alive in "Faith..." Plus, he looks older than Kakistos and has looked that way for at least 400 years.

But now I'm curious about the nature of this source.

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2004-10-03 04:43am

Demiurge wrote:
Eleas wrote:
Demiurge wrote: I think it's safe to assume that their conditions are both caused by simple age. The Master's being greater.
I'm sorry, but I hear an unspoken "because I say so", here.

...I just don't get where your proof comes from, really. We have one definite statement from an official (or semi-official) source that Kakistos is the oldest, and none to oppose it. So I guess I just question your absolute conviction on this matter.
What source is that? I'm going by Giles' statement that the Master is the oldest vampire on record. He didn't seem at all surprised that Kakistos was alive in "Faith..." Plus, he looks older than Kakistos and has looked that way for at least 400 years.

But now I'm curious about the nature of this source.

Monster Smackdown gives Master age:7 and Kakistos Ancient "(like, way older than Age)". Eleas has shown that Kakistos is older than 670 years. Heinrich Joseph Nest (The Master) is 600 years old. (same book)

Anyway, he doesn't look odler than Kakistos to me.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-10-03 09:55am

The relevant quote you're looking for is in Act 3 of Prophecy Girl:

Giles wrote:Giles: The Master is as old as any vampire on record. There's no telling how powerful he'll be if he reaches the surface.

And, just for the record, Dracula is about as old as those two are, and he's pretty damn powerful as well...
[/quote]

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2004-10-03 10:11am

Demiurge wrote: What source is that? I'm going by Giles' statement that the Master is the oldest vampire on record. He didn't seem at all surprised that Kakistos was alive in "Faith..." Plus, he looks older than Kakistos and has looked that way for at least 400 years.

But now I'm curious about the nature of this source.

It's Monster Smackdown (I'd suggest buying it and its other games, cause they're that good.

). With the quote provided from Prophecy Girl, I think it sort of meshes. I mean, if Kakistos is about 100 years or so older, it would still fit with Giles' blanket statement somewhat. There would still be a contradiction, but not only could Kakistos be a myth, Giles could be speaking generally, including Dracula (slightly younger) and Kakistos (slightly older) as peers of the Master.

It's not as if Kakistos got the good end of the deal, anyway... if you look at their stats, the Master is infinitely more scary, as he should be.

God I need a life.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2004-10-03 10:29am

Yes, Buy the Buffy RPG, for it truely ROCKS!