StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Robert Walper wrote:In reference to Worf playing the trick on the Ferengi, this may merely suggest they have similar a system in place, but it was either unguarded or poorly so. But that would be a weakness of the Ferengi, not Starfleet(which frankly, isn't surprising given the Ferengi's apparent complete lack of any significant power(other than economic))

Don't bring DS9 one-sidedness into this. In TNG the Ferengi were competent fighters.

CDiehl wrote:The choice of the Enterprise for this exercise seems reasonable to me. First, despite Picard's comments in this episode, Stafleet is the Federation military, and should a superior opponent attack the Federation, Galaxy-class ships would be the ones most likely to meet it.

Unlikely. Over a starfleet that comprises at least a few thousand ships, in TNG there were six Galaxies.

Second, the Enterprise's main job is exploration, and it's possible they will encounter a superior, and hostile, ship, so it's practical that they practice for it.

So that's why they were fighting a vastly inferior ship... I don't follow.

Third, if there is a war, and the Enterprise is destroyed, Picard and Riker, if they survive, would probably be given command of smaller ships, and they need some experience commanding small ships against large ones.

That's just grasping at straws. That's an incredibly silly thing to plan for.

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Actually it's more incompetence on Picards or the security officers part for not changing the access codes. Also, why would you think Worf is someone with a little know how? What if he is someone the knows the very intimate details of that system. Also, Ro sent an imbedded security code so the Enterprise allowed her to take the medical supplies they never actually boarded her.

Actually, those codes are changed all the time, as stated in Pre-emptive Strike when Ensign Ro did it, but Engisn Ro was able to bust the system in a short time by simply knowing how the system worked. It's not a matter of know how. An expert in computer security wouldn't be able to just get an encryption key, not matter how familiar he is with the algorithms because the keys are generated randomly, particularly if you have to factor some absurdly large number to get it or any of the other forms of encryption out there.

You make the assumption that they are actually video cameras and not some other form of advanced technology, it is sci-fi afterall.

It doesn't matter if they are camera obscuras or subspace groping extendohands, that doesn't change anything about my argument, now does it? No matter what they actually are, there is some device on the hull that collects radiation data from the surrounding environment and converts it to data. You can choose not to call it a camera, but they serve the exact same function.

I've got a question about that episode, now that I think on it.

Why did they take a section of the Enterprise crew and put it on the Hathaway? If they were doing a war game scenario, wouldn't they want all the Enterprise crew on the Enterprise, since barring transfers, that's where they'd all when the prospect is war? That way, they all train together with their crew positions intact, so they are ready to fight together when it comes time to fight for Earth. Why didn't the Federation bring in another fully crewed vessel to fight the Enterprise?

Gil Hamilton wrote:I've got a question about that episode, now that I think on it.

Why did they take a section of the Enterprise crew and put it on the Hathaway? If they were doing a war game scenario, wouldn't they want all the Enterprise crew on the Enterprise, since barring transfers, that's where they'd all when the prospect is war? That way, they all train together with their crew positions intact, so they are ready to fight together when it comes time to fight for Earth. Why didn't the Federation bring in another fully crewed vessel to fight the Enterprise?

Well if they didn't then the Hathaway Would have no crew.
Also not all of the E-D's crew will be put to use during combat therefore in a short-term situation it wouldn't matter.

Gil Hamilton wrote: Actually, those codes are changed all the time, as stated in Pre-emptive Strike when Ensign Ro did it, but Engisn Ro was able to bust the system in a short time by simply knowing how the system worked. It's not a matter of know how. An expert in computer security wouldn't be able to just get an encryption key, not matter how familiar he is with the algorithms because the keys are generated randomly, particularly if you have to factor some absurdly large number to get it or any of the other forms of encryption out there.

Hmm I'm thinking that since she was an undercover operative she had the codes and never really busted into anything.

It doesn't matter if they are camera obscuras or subspace groping extendohands, that doesn't change anything about my argument, now does it? No matter what they actually are, there is some device on the hull that collects radiation data from the surrounding environment and converts it to data. You can choose not to call it a camera, but they serve the exact same function.

Very true, I apologize.

Crazedwraith wrote:Well if they didn't then the Hathaway Would have no crew.
Also not all of the E-D's crew will be put to use during combat therefore in a short-term situation it wouldn't matter.

That's why you get another ship. An active ship, not something that you dug out of mothballs. I'm sure the other ship and her crew could benefit from the war game experience too, and that way you don't have to break up a crew.

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Hmm I'm thinking that since she was an undercover operative she had the codes and never really busted into anything.

That's not what the episode said. She couldn't have had the codes, because she was gone and they were changed since then.

I also think this episode sets up the reasons why Riker rather than blasting the bird of prey in Generation with his guns blazing he has to come up with a technobable solution to the problem. The Wargame was worthless because all Rijer did was to "cheat" rather than really fight the Enterprise. So it has now been firmly astablish that Riker can't fight normally. He has to cheat somehow in order to win.

Gil Hamilton wrote:I've got a question about that episode, now that I think on it.

Why did they take a section of the Enterprise crew and put it on the Hathaway? If they were doing a war game scenario, wouldn't they want all the Enterprise crew on the Enterprise, since barring transfers, that's where they'd all when the prospect is war? That way, they all train together with their crew positions intact, so they are ready to fight together when it comes time to fight for Earth. Why didn't the Federation bring in another fully crewed vessel to fight the Enterprise?

There's plenty wrong with this script —why the needlessly complex plan of disabling the Enterprise's main armament in favour of training beams interacting with the computers instead of simply setting phasers to 1/100th power, as was done in the M5 wargammes exercises of a century earlier? Why the resort to a ridiculous and obvious technobabble plot device of the false sensor projection (depending upon hacking into the enemy's own computer system) instead of rigging a jamming wave projector to blind the Enterprise's sensors? Why not have the Enterprise matched with a starship of equal capability intead of an 80-year old wreck hauled out of ordinary, as Gil observed? Or, why not simply do the whole exercise as a holodeck training programme ala the Kobayashi Maru test instead of an actual physical scenario? And those are just the objections that are immediately bubbling off the top of my head. Nothing about "Peak Performance" really stands up to close examination.

Howedar, the test was to see how the crew deals with a mismatch. Since they have no better ships than the Galaxy, they have to take some of the officers and crew, stick them on an inferior ship and make the rest play the bad guys. I would imagine that had the exercise gone better, they would have switched some of the lower-ranking crew members for some of the scenarios. As for the idea of Picard and/or Riker having to possibly take command of a lesser ship, I don't see what's so far-fetched about it. It may not be the intention, but it would be a beneficial side effect. Besides, if they lost the Enterprise in time of war, Starfleet would want them back in the field ASAP, and a new Galaxy might not be available. In addition, Starfleet might choose to transfer them any time, whether they like it or not. However, it is most likely the whole setup is for Riker's benefit. His ability to command seems to be at issue in the episode. It seems to be what Kolrami was most interested in.

CDiehl wrote:Howedar, the test was to see how the crew deals with a mismatch. Since they have no better ships than the Galaxy, they have to take some of the officers and crew, stick them on an inferior ship and make the rest play the bad guys. I would imagine that had the exercise gone better, they would have switched some of the lower-ranking crew members for some of the scenarios. As for the idea of Picard and/or Riker having to possibly take command of a lesser ship, I don't see what's so far-fetched about it. It may not be the intention, but it would be a beneficial side effect. Besides, if they lost the Enterprise in time of war, Starfleet would want them back in the field ASAP, and a new Galaxy might not be available. In addition, Starfleet might choose to transfer them any time, whether they like it or not. However, it is most likely the whole setup is for Riker's benefit. His ability to command seems to be at issue in the episode. It seems to be what Kolrami was most interested in.

The exercise is militarily useless. There's only ever one real outcome to a mismatch —the inferior vessel is doomed. Imagine a 10-gun schooner going up against HMS Victory. Doesn't matter how good the schooner crew is or how much character the captain has. The schooner gets blown to matchwood. Period.

CDiehl wrote:Howedar, the test was to see how the crew deals with a mismatch. Since they have no better ships than the Galaxy, they have to take some of the officers and crew, stick them on an inferior ship and make the rest play the bad guys. I would imagine that had the exercise gone better, they would have switched some of the lower-ranking crew members for some of the scenarios. As for the idea of Picard and/or Riker having to possibly take command of a lesser ship, I don't see what's so far-fetched about it. It may not be the intention, but it would be a beneficial side effect. Besides, if they lost the Enterprise in time of war, Starfleet would want them back in the field ASAP, and a new Galaxy might not be available. In addition, Starfleet might choose to transfer them any time, whether they like it or not. However, it is most likely the whole setup is for Riker's benefit. His ability to command seems to be at issue in the episode. It seems to be what Kolrami was most interested in.

It would have been a mismatch even if they used most of their active ships, like all the Mirandas or Excelsiors they've still got running around by that time. That way, they could exercise more than one ship crew at a time. It makes more sense than saving some rusty ship from the scrapyard and breaking up the Enterprises crew to man it.

Isolder74 wrote:I also think this episode sets up the reasons why Riker rather than blasting the bird of prey in Generation with his guns blazing he has to come up with a technobable solution to the problem. The Wargame was worthless because all Rijer did was to "cheat" rather than really fight the Enterprise. So it has now been firmly astablish that Riker can't fight normally. He has to cheat somehow in order to win.

There is no such thing as cheating in battle.

Kamakazie Sith wrote:

Isolder74 wrote:I also think this episode sets up the reasons why Riker rather than blasting the bird of prey in Generation with his guns blazing he has to come up with a technobable solution to the problem. The Wargame was worthless because all Rijer did was to "cheat" rather than really fight the Enterprise. So it has now been firmly astablish that Riker can't fight normally. He has to cheat somehow in order to win.

There is no such thing as cheating in battle.

Using some trick to defeat a weaker enemy rather than the huge amount of firepower he had available in Generation wasn't stupid?

The trick he pulled in Peak Performance is definatally cheating to win a war game!

A war game is about who is the best commander not about who can pull the cheapest trick is it not.

That is why both side should be equal!

Kamakazie Sith wrote:

Isolder74 wrote:I also think this episode sets up the reasons why Riker rather than blasting the bird of prey in Generation with his guns blazing he has to come up with a technobable solution to the problem. The Wargame was worthless because all Rijer did was to "cheat" rather than really fight the Enterprise. So it has now been firmly astablish that Riker can't fight normally. He has to cheat somehow in order to win.

There is no such thing as cheating in battle.

For some current day countries, they use rules of engaement. These might not apply neccessarily to cheating but sometimes you have to stay inside certain boundries.

But if you are in battle then you do whatever the heck you need to do to win, even if it is to waste time trying to cloak your enemy then fire instead of firing all weapons then do your trick.

Kamakazie Sith wrote:There is no such thing as cheating in battle.

It's not just the "cheating", but he "cheated" in a way that he never could of if the Enterprise was an enemy ship. After all, his plan relied on the dilithium that Wesley got from a coincidental science project on the ship. He wouldn't have been able to get the stuff in a normal combat situation.

Isolder74 wrote:

Kamakazie Sith wrote:

Isolder74 wrote:I also think this episode sets up the reasons why Riker rather than blasting the bird of prey in Generation with his guns blazing he has to come up with a technobable solution to the problem. The Wargame was worthless because all Rijer did was to "cheat" rather than really fight the Enterprise. So it has now been firmly astablish that Riker can't fight normally. He has to cheat somehow in order to win.

There is no such thing as cheating in battle.

Using some trick to defeat a weaker enemy rather than the huge amount of firepower he had available in Generation wasn't stupid?

The trick he pulled in Peak Performance is definatally cheating to win a war game!

No, it wasn't cheating. He took advantage of the enemies incompetence.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Kamakazie Sith wrote:There is no such thing as cheating in battle.

It's not just the "cheating", but he "cheated" in a way that he never could of if the Enterprise was an enemy ship. After all, his plan relied on the dilithium that Wesley got from a coincidental science project on the ship. He wouldn't have been able to get the stuff in a normal combat situation.

Kinda like Kirk with the Reliant, right?

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Kamakazie Sith wrote:There is no such thing as cheating in battle.

It's not just the "cheating", but he "cheated" in a way that he never could of if the Enterprise was an enemy ship. After all, his plan relied on the dilithium that Wesley got from a coincidental science project on the ship. He wouldn't have been able to get the stuff in a normal combat situation.

And that's where the whole thing gets flushed down the garbage chute. The success of Riker's crew in the wargamme depends upon two cheats: Worf hacking the Enterprise's security monitors to enable the projection of the false sensor image, and Wesley connivning his way back aboard the Enterprise to pick up a convenient supply of antimatter to power the Hathaway's warp engines. It goes without saying that there is zero guarantee of being able to hack into an alien computer system you have no advanced knowledge of especially in the middle of battle when ECM is likely to be up and running, and zero possibility of tricking the enemy into letting you borrow a cup of antimatter, and therefore neither of these cheats applies to any real-world situation even remotely. The exercise is militarily useless.

Kamakazie Sith wrote:

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Kamakazie Sith wrote:There is no such thing as cheating in battle.

It's not just the "cheating", but he "cheated" in a way that he never could of if the Enterprise was an enemy ship. After all, his plan relied on the dilithium that Wesley got from a coincidental science project on the ship. He wouldn't have been able to get the stuff in a normal combat situation.

Kinda like Kirk with the Reliant, right?

&Yes by someone who had trhe rank to have the access for such things incase a captain goes rouge! Yes Kirk Cheated but he did it in a way that should have worked. A second officer is not one who would have such access.

Patrick Degan wrote:

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Kamakazie Sith wrote:There is no such thing as cheating in battle.

It's not just the "cheating", but he "cheated" in a way that he never could of if the Enterprise was an enemy ship. After all, his plan relied on the dilithium that Wesley got from a coincidental science project on the ship. He wouldn't have been able to get the stuff in a normal combat situation.

And that's where the whole thing gets flushed down the garbage chute. The success of Riker's crew in the wargamme depends upon two cheats: Worf hacking the Enterprise's security monitors to enable the projection of the false sensor image, and Wesley connivning his way back aboard the Enterprise to pick up a convenient supply of antimatter to power the Hathaway's warp engines. It goes without saying that there is zero guarantee of being able to hack into an alien computer system you have no advanced knowledge of especially in the middle of battle when ECM is likely to be up and running, and zero possibility of tricking the enemy into letting you borrow a cup of antimatter, and therefore neither of these cheats applies to any real-world situation even remotely. The exercise is militarily useless.

I agree, except that it is still not cheating. Taking advantage of an enemies weakness, whatever it might be is not cheating.

Isolder74 wrote:

Kamakazie Sith wrote:

Gil Hamilton wrote: It's not just the "cheating", but he "cheated" in a way that he never could of if the Enterprise was an enemy ship. After all, his plan relied on the dilithium that Wesley got from a coincidental science project on the ship. He wouldn't have been able to get the stuff in a normal combat situation.

Kinda like Kirk with the Reliant, right?

&Yes by someone who had trhe rank to have the access for such things incase a captain goes rouge! Yes Kirk Cheated but he did it in a way that should have worked. A second officer is not one who would have such access.

Kirk told Savik to pull up the codes, but she didn't understand why. Kirks rank had nothing to do with it those codes but you are right about the purpose.

Once again, and I stress this. Both Kirk and Riker did NOT cheat.

Kamakazie Sith wrote:I agree, except that it is still not cheating. Taking advantage of an enemies weakness, whatever it might be is not cheating.

I'm not sure you are following, mate. The purpose of a wargame is to train for the times when you really are going to have to see the elephant in war. What Riker did relied entirely on the fact that it was the Enterprise, which made the exercise useless. How many Romulan Warbirds are going to allow Wesley the Wonder Kid to walk around their ship and smuggle something from his science experiment that he was doing on the ship out?

Truefully they both cheated what is your point. If Kahn had stolden a ship from a foreign power Kirk would have been in real trouble. But since Kirk would not have been caught of guard in that case.... you get the idea