StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Well, I'm thinking that the KE shield as more of a cushion than a brick wall. I don't envision a barrier like you commonly see in StarTrek, but more like something that slows and stops slugs over a short period of time, so that the force of the impact is spread over a longer period of time. If it's stopped like a brick wall, it's going to transfer all that momentum very quickly and slap the breastplate back with alot of force. Extending the time of effect and angle of incident acute will decrease how much deflecting the shot accelerates the emitter into the breastplate and cushioning, hopefully making it so that the momentum isn't lethal. Even if it fails to stop the round, it may take the edge off the hit to change it's angle enough to strike the breastplate with less of a hit, decreasing the likelihood that a bullet will penetrate or hit the Borg with the full effects of the shots momentum. Plus, it would be good against shrapnel and weapon attempting to whack them with things.

Well, they have shields capable of stopping those. We're trying to stop a bullet here. Whether a flak jacket could stop an energy weapon strike is irrelevant. But, if it makes you feel better, we could make them of a material that can survive a hand phaser shot. Also, give the drones a mix of phasers, disruptors and any other energy weapons there are, and order them never to engage in close combat, especially against opponents who have melee weapons.

Gil Hamilton wrote:First of all, Robert, do me a huge favor? Quote entire paragraphes, rather than picking out individual sentences. If you want to point out a particular phrase, bold it. It makes it much easier for us to correspond if you aren't setting up a seperate quote for every damn sentence in my post, especially since these posts tend to get geometrically longer as the discussion continues.

Will do. I hope that didn't come across as selectively ignoring your entire paragraphs...?

Now, let me explain what I am talking about. I even have little cartoons.

*snip*

Even without the images I knew exactly what system you were proposing. With them is virtually how I visualitzed what you were talking about. When I get back from work(and hopefully remember), I'll create a few diagrams myself, and e-mail to you if you don't mind, plus use yours to illustrate what I meant by the momentum having a focal point.

In one TNG episode, didn't Worf cobble together some sort of shield that protected him from holographic revolver bullets, using bits of his phaser (or communicator, I forget which)? If you can find him, and if no one else can help...

ClaysGhost wrote:In one TNG episode, didn't Worf cobble together some sort of shield that protected him from holographic revolver bullets, using bits of his phaser (or communicator, I forget which)? If you can find him, and if no one else can help...

The episode you're referring to is STTNG "A Fistful of Datas". Worf used his communicator and other holodeck simulated parts(from a western setting) to cobble together a practical KE shield that prevented the simulated Data "badguy" from shooting him.

Robert Walper wrote:I'll try and look up the episode name if you insist, but the example in question was in STTNG. A prisoner in the E-D's brig ran his hand across the forcefield for an extended amount of time. He didn't seem to be bothered by it in the least.

Robert, that doesn't prove KE shields can be handled "for an extended period of time". I can run my hand through a candleflame, and not be harmed appreciably. If I held it still IN the flame, I'd be injured. Your one example vs. virtually every other one doesn't even stand up to comparison. BTW, that episode wouldn't be "The Hunted", would it?

evilcat4000 wrote: Yes it can be but the drone will feel like being hit by a sledgehammer. A similar thing happens with modern day bullet proof vests. Even if bullets dont pierce the vest they can break bones and cause massive internal injuries due to the high speed impact.

Not usually. The impact is usually sufficiently spread out to prevent injuries, part of the design feature of vests. There are several tests showing individuals wearing body armor being shot with high-power weapons including an FN FAL in .308, with no ill results.

Lord Poe wrote:

Robert Walper wrote:I'll try and look up the episode name if you insist, but the example in question was in STTNG. A prisoner in the E-D's brig ran his hand across the forcefield for an extended amount of time. He didn't seem to be bothered by it in the least.

Robert, that doesn't prove KE shields can be handled "for an extended period of time". I can run my hand through a candleflame, and not be harmed appreciably. If I held it still IN the flame, I'd be injured.

True enough. However, my theory is not dependent upon the KE shield being in physical contact with the drone at all times. Merely the distance the KE shield needs to move to make contact and brace against the drone's body is minimal(to the point where the implant can safely move that distance within the body as well). All then that would be required is a mechanism that shifts the KE shield implant back into place when it no longer has outside forces acting on it.

Your one example vs. virtually every other one doesn't even stand up to comparison. BTW, that episode wouldn't be "The Hunted", would it?

Yes. I suspect I know why you're asking as well. He was a person enhanced by artificial means. But then, so are the Borg. Special notice should be given to their existing armor, which would in fact be the major surface area interacting with the KE shield, not open skin(like the example I mentioned).

Just so it's clear again, I'm in no way asserting the Borg Collective has this ability; it's nothing more than an attempt to propose a practical method of employing KE shielding utilizing Borg technology and characteristics we know of.

In this case, only one modification is necessary. Shrink the body conforming shielding to the point where physical impacts brace the shield on the Borg drones outer surface area, which is mostly composed of armor anyhow.

buzz_knox wrote:

evilcat4000 wrote: Yes it can be but the drone will feel like being hit by a sledgehammer. A similar thing happens with modern day bullet proof vests. Even if bullets dont pierce the vest they can break bones and cause massive internal injuries due to the high speed impact.

Not usually. The impact is usually sufficiently spread out to prevent injuries, part of the design feature of vests. There are several tests showing individuals wearing body armor being shot with high-power weapons including an FN FAL in .308, with no ill results.

Now imagine if the vest were composed of an energy shield that doesn't lose shape and is resistant so long as sufficient power is avialable. Not to mention the impact would theoritically be spread over a much greater surface area since Borg personal shielding surrounds the entire body.

Robert Walper wrote:Yes. I suspect I know why you're asking as well. He was a person enhanced by artificial means. But then, so are the Borg. Special notice should be given to their existing armor, which would in fact be the major surface area interacting with the KE shield, not open skin(like the example I mentioned).

Just so it's clear again, I'm in no way asserting the Borg Collective has this ability; it's nothing more than an attempt to propose a practical method of employing KE shielding utilizing Borg technology and characteristics we know of.

In this case, only one modification is necessary. Shrink the body conforming shielding to the point where physical impacts brace the shield on the Borg drones outer surface area, which is mostly composed of armor anyhow.

The problem is that you are still thinking that a force field is a physical object. It is not a real object, outside of mathematics. Really, the forcefield is not a solid thing that can be pressed back, but rather the interaction between the emitter and the object. From your description, you make it sound like the field has a back surface which presses down on whatever is behind it, so that when the "field" gets hit with a physical object, the field itself and not the emitter is jumping back. This is not the case. The field does not jump back, because the "field" is just the place where the emitter managed to stop the object at. Something like that cannot be "braced" on the Borgs outer surface. Thus is can't be caught on anything and the emitter itself is jumping back. I know this is really conceptual stuff, Robert, but try to understand this.

Now imagine if the vest were composed of an energy shield that doesn't lose shape and is resistant so long as sufficient power is avialable. Not to mention the impact would theoritically be spread over a much greater surface area since Borg personal shielding surrounds the entire body.

The field isn't spread out around the Borg's entire body. You are still thinking of it as a physical barrier and not as an interaction between the emitter and the object. I suppose you think that your gravity is an actual physical object and not just an interaction between your mass and the mass of the planet?

Fortunately, Poe gets what I'm talking about, while Walper is continuing to be rather dense.

Rob, what I'm getting at is that a protective force field designed to keep someone inside a brig would have to fuction differently than an energy shield that protects against KE attacks. Last time I checked, brig barriers don't desintigrate or damage what comes into contact with them. A "skin-tight" KE shield that you suggest would have to deliver its destructive properties to the drone that it's supposed to protect as well as the projectiles. Simple, ne?

Unless the Borg are employing magical forcefields, I'm not buying it.

Gil, Wanky..er...Spanky. I see where our conflict in reasoning originates. I'll get back to this when I'm back from work sometime.

Gil Hamilton wrote:The problem is that you are still thinking that a force field is a physical object. It is not a real object, outside of mathematics. Really, the forcefield is not a solid thing that can be pressed back, but rather the interaction between the emitter and the object. From your description, you make it sound like the field has a back surface which presses down on whatever is behind it, so that when the "field" gets hit with a physical object, the field itself and not the emitter is jumping back. This is not the case. The field does not jump back, because the "field" is just the place where the emitter managed to stop the object at. Something like that cannot be "braced" on the Borgs outer surface. Thus is can't be caught on anything and the emitter itself is jumping back. I know this is really conceptual stuff, Robert, but try to understand this.

I do understand, but your explaination, if I may submit, seems to be based upon a questionable assumption.

First off, we both understand the distance between the emitter and the edge of the shield is static, not dynamic. If the emitter moves (D) distance on any (X) axis, edge of said force field also moves (D) distance on (X) axis.

My theory depends upon this actually, since even a geometrically variable shield isn't going to magically handle imparted momentum. Any object impacting the shield's "edge" is going to impart momentum to the emitter...at first. This is understood. What is not understood is your assertion that said shield's ability to interact with solid objects is only a one way process. Other observed forcefields capable of blocking solid impactors do so from either side, as like observed brig forcefields.

Secondly, you're asserting the forcefield is not a solid object. This is also known...however, observed KE shields act like solid "walls" when dealing with solid impactors. Again, your explaination seems dependent upon the characteristics of the shield only working one way, and not the other. I do not understand why this is a acceptable assertion given observed forcefields, like a brig's, block objects from both sides, not just one.