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IIRC the was a lot of prejudice in the EU SW universe towards clones. Even Han Solo, friend to many aliens and wookie slaves, had a natural revulsion towards a clone of Baron Fell.

My guess had always been that the Clone Troopers eventually became Imperial Storm Troopers. As mentioned in the books Shatter Point the Clone Army was reduced to holding actions in it's own sectors and the Grand Army of the Republic was recruiting.

A clone army must cost a fortune to produce and conscripts and recruits are cheaper. My educated guess is that atrition will eventually wipe of the original clones and new clones will either be bought from multiple sources or the Republic/Empire will rely on the patriotism of the citizens.

Okay. Now these recruits, will they be like indoctrinated dudes or what? Will they be like real people?

They'll probably be brainwashed over a priod of weeks for loyalty, and then sent to training camps (ie Carida). After a few months of basic training and conditioning, they'll be sent out into reserve forces for some mroe specialised training (field medic, mechanic, depending on what there isn't enough of), and then after that be deployed through the Empire.

I assume the clones are based of a thousand or so different templates, so the odds of getting two identical chaps standing right beside the other is unlikely. They would likely be Emporer's guards and elite stormtroopers, for maximum effect.

IIRC, the stormies are indocrinated for their whole training program. And beyond.

If GL continues his current trend, the EU will be rendered irrelevent on the issue. GL's intent seems to be to make the clone army become the Stormtroopers. Movies>Books. Sorry but it looks like its going that way.

But we have no proof that they continued to use clone troops and EU proof that they didn't.

Bullshit. We know that cloning is officially banned, but so is a lot of shit that Palpatine did.


What, did they just send the clones back to their non-existant homes after the war, then recruit a whole new army? George Lucas says no.

This is partly George Lucas fault, for not even considering what the Clone Wars were and who was doing the cloning until 2002. As such, all previous EU material seemed to just take the idea that cloning was repulsive/banned, based on the various writers preconceived notions- and all making no fucking sense when put up against Attack of the Clones. You think George Lucas will do an about face in Episode III and have "clones are bad, mmmkay" all of a sudden? Not likely.

In the 1st Zahn books Mara Jade actually drops major hints that the Clones where the bad guys in the Clone War. When she showed up at the Katana Fleet battle IIRC she said something like "I'm not gonna sit around while another group of cold faced clones try and take over the universe". Admitidly this was only EU, but Zahn's work deserves a bit more credit because it was his books that brought SW back to mainstream sci-fi.

Lord Pounder wrote:In the 1st Zahn books Mara Jade actually drops major hints that the Clones where the bad guys in the Clone War. When she showed up at the Katana Fleet battle IIRC she said something like "I'm not gonna sit around while another group of cold faced clones try and take over the universe". Admitidly this was only EU, but Zahn's work deserves a bit more credit because it was his books that brought SW back to mainstream sci-fi.

He can't really be blamed for leaping to a conclusion, but unfortunately Mara's comment is, like all others on the Clone Wars pre-2002, complete bunk- buggered if I know to think of an in-universe explanation to explain away this wierd comment. Makes my brain hurt ...

Well, the clones did murder the Jedi and help Palpy take control of the galaxy.....

Vympel wrote:

Lord Pounder wrote:In the 1st Zahn books Mara Jade actually drops major hints that the Clones where the bad guys in the Clone War. When she showed up at the Katana Fleet battle IIRC she said something like "I'm not gonna sit around while another group of cold faced clones try and take over the universe". Admitidly this was only EU, but Zahn's work deserves a bit more credit because it was his books that brought SW back to mainstream sci-fi.

He can't really be blamed for leaping to a conclusion, but unfortunately Mara's comment is, like all others on the Clone Wars pre-2002, complete bunk- buggered if I know to think of an in-universe explanation to explain away this wierd comment. Makes my brain hurt ...

I'll take a stab at it...

If you read her comment above (emphasis mine), it implies that the clones tried and failed to take over the universe. However, it doesn't actually *state* that. It is also established in the Thrawn trilogy that records from the Clone Wars are sketchy, at best. It could be that Mara (and others in the EU) is simply speaking out of ignorance, having been brought up to look on the Clones as bad news. Therefore, her comment could be formed based on rumours and legends of the Clone Wars, rather than any historical understanding of the conflict.

And don't forget, the Clones in AOTC are the bad guys - they were created by Palpatine, and the Republic was maneuvred into using them in action. The Jedi were the leaders, yes, but they've been duped all along anyway. And since Palpy is trying to take over the Galaxy and declare himself Emperor, the Clones could feasibly be used for that purpose. As for reconciling the differences between Clonetroopers and Stormies, let's hope Episode 3 explains it.

Well, that's my attempt at a rationalisation. I hope it makes sense.

Their results where evil but the intentions wheren't.

Vympel wrote:

Lord Pounder wrote:In the 1st Zahn books Mara Jade actually drops major hints that the Clones where the bad guys in the Clone War. When she showed up at the Katana Fleet battle IIRC she said something like "I'm not gonna sit around while another group of cold faced clones try and take over the universe". Admitidly this was only EU, but Zahn's work deserves a bit more credit because it was his books that brought SW back to mainstream sci-fi.

He can't really be blamed for leaping to a conclusion, but unfortunately Mara's comment is, like all others on the Clone Wars pre-2002, complete bunk- buggered if I know to think of an in-universe explanation to explain away this wierd comment. Makes my brain hurt ...

Tis possible that Palpy sacrificed the clone army in that he set them up to look like they were in league with an attempted Jedi coup. This gave him the chance to outlaw the jedi and bring in the Stormtroopers.

I'm going to ask Vympel to add this to the stickys for ALREADY DEALT WITH subjects.

Pax Empirica -- The Wookiee Annihilation quotes...

Pax Emperica says explicitly that 40% of all stormtroopers had Strander's face.

4 out of 10 Stormies were clones of a single line--this is pre-OT, but keeping in mind GL's statements and Decipher cards--the Empire didn't suddenly stop mass-use of clone stormtroopers.

If most stormies are clones, why is Thrawn so pleased with he finds a few cloning cylinders?

Possibly Thrawn's clones only felt different to normal clones becuase of their quick growth and the fact they were created in force-less conditions to prevent clone madness.

Crazedwraith wrote:If most stormies are clones, why is Thrawn so pleased with he finds a few cloning cylinders?

Possibly Thrawn's clones only felt different to normal clones becuase of their quick growth and the fact they were created in force-less conditions to prevent clone madness.

Because his supply of Stormtroopers is running out. It says this in TTT, but no one ever seems to take heed.

The Thrawn Spaarti clones "felt" weird because of the "resonance" in the Force that Leia talks about from so many nigh-identical carbon-copy minds.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I'm going to ask Vympel to add this to the stickys for ALREADY DEALT WITH subjects.

Pax Empirica -- The Wookiee Annihilation quotes...

Pax Emperica says explicitly that 40% of all stormtroopers had Strander's face.

4 out of 10 Stormies were clones of a single line--this is pre-OT, but keeping in mind GL's statements and Decipher cards--the Empire didn't suddenly stop mass-use of clone stormtroopers.

There it is. I was going to bring this up, but I couldn't find it (and I actually completely forgot about the archive board )
I figured you'd be back soon enough to put things in order, though.

I think that it is a combination of clones and normal guys. The clone army may well have become Stormtroopers, but there is also room for people who perform exceptionally well in the Imperial army to become Stormtroopers as well. There is an eighteen year period between E:III and ANH so it's logical to assume that there were some normal guys in the Stormtrooper ranks along with the clones as well.

I suppose I should ask this...

Where in the continuity does a story published in a game's startegy guide fit? If I'm reading it right, that's where Pax Empirica came from.

It is an LFL-sanctioned short story.

Its Official like everything else.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:It is an LFL-sanctioned short story.

Its Official like everything else.

Okie dokie. Never saw it, so figured I'd ask.

Do the ones in the X-Wing and TIE Fighter guides count as well (and I think there's one in XWA), or did GB get something special?

On Cloning and the Imperial Stormtroopers...

The Stormtroopers originate with the Grand Army of the Republic. The Grand Army, was initially composed of 200,000 combat troops developed at the Kaminoan capital of Tipoca City. The Kaminoan clone forces were nationalised into the Grand Army as part of the provisions of the Military Creation Act, authorized by Supreme Chancellor Palpatine after granting of emergency powers by the Galactic Senate.

192,000 of those combat-ready infantry were deployed in combat against the nascent Confederacy of Independent Systems at the factory world of Geonosis. Shortly thereafter, another 1,000,000 clones were readied for battle and were quickly deployed in fire brigade/spec-ops style against several Confederate threats. Presumably, the other many millions of clones in production at Kamino became ready at varying times within the next three years of war.

Meanwhile, Republican engineers, scientists, and technicians, working from the base of the Kaminoan cloning vats, developed a new clone vat capable of growing a clone from zygote to full adult. It is also probable that the Republican designers also created the "flash-memory imprinting" system that custom-wired the growing brain to contain a given set of memories and skills. The Spaarti Creations company and the Cranscoc Twillers developed the Clone Cylinders which were buried under the mostly empty world of Wayland.

It is possible that this technology was leaked to the Seperatists, and some Confederate ships were crewed by clones that were grown too rapidly. These clones went insane. These frenzied and mad encounters with the Republican Navy would leave an impression on later-Imperial Remnant Grand Admiral Pelleaon before the clones were put down. Continued use may have eventually created stable crewers if grown for at least a year.

Presumably, when the war ended and the Galactic Empire was founded, the Grand Army was encorperated into the Imperial Marines, or the Stormtroopers, despite the fact that the Galactic Empire officially banned all full-body sentient cloning (ref: DESB). However, hidden enclaves, possibly in the Deep Core, were constructed for the continued production of cloned soldiers. *Initially, these facilities produced clones similarly to Kamino, where infant or toddler clones were raised at normal or accerated growth rate to young adulthood. This chronologically, logistically, and financially costly process became cost-prohibitive.

Using a refined varient of the Spaarti-brand cloning cylinder technology buried at Wayland, Emperor Palpatine established cloning facilities on Byss and Coruscant, for the production of clone bodies for his quest to immortality.

It is possible the "GeNode" facilities were derived from the Spaarti-brand cylinder technology as well. Regardless, the GeNode facilities produced adult clones which were fully matured and ready for deployment immediately upon leaving the vat. Clones were specialized for squad roles--lighter, slighter-build clones became biker scouts, for example. The clones were designed such that they invented personalities and memories once they "hatched." Each GeNode believed he was a recruit, with a life and past and family. Slight randomity in the clones' intrinsic appearance and hygenic/cosmetic habits, as well as the shuffling of multiple clone lines maintained the appearance of a more normal army. GeNodes are brainwashed, either physically or psychologically, to be nigh-incapable of betraying or deserting the Empire, or realizing that they are clones, even though, amazingly, they'll notice other GeNodes, even GeNodes of their line, are clones. They're programmed to be "too polite" to discuss cloning with GeNodes of their line.

However, the Marines always kept an eye out for exceptional volunteers from the Navy and Army to be trained at Carida and placed in the Marines. Even a few political prisioners as punishment were brainwashed and placed in a useless role such as garrison on Carida or some desolate customs checkpoint in Wild Space.




*Note: The Bantha Tracks article from the '70's depicts Kaminoan style-cloning as a source from the Stormtroopers, but oddly claims normal growth-cycles. I assume this predates the GeNodes.

RogueIce wrote:Do the ones in the X-Wing and TIE Fighter guides count as well (and I think there's one in XWA), or did GB get something special?

The Farlander Papers and The Steele Chronicles are Official.

Shit, my topic is not a sticky! I feel so honored. Oh thank you..... everyone..... *starts sobbing*.... this is the happiest day of my life.... I'm so happy!

Okay, so Stormies are klawns yet they don't know that they're klawns. Alrighty then. That's kinda weird, but okay. I can dig it.