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Superman wrote:And just for the record, I don't think this episode fit in with Star Trek continuity at all. The only way we can reconcile this notion is to consider that Enterprise takes place on a different timeline. Since the Borg sphere wreckage was recovered, we have to assume that history has/is changing from the normal Trek timeline.

There is no continuity at all with the Borg. Consider when we first saw them in "Q Who." They might as well be a totally different race. Thanks to the idea of a Queen, Voyager's pussification of them, and now Borg in the 22nd century, we might as well just have Archer go to the Delta quandrant and kill all of them.

Well you are flat out wrong. This fit with the continuity perfectly and answered questions raised in both VGR and TNG. Might want to try watching the episode first rather then deciding to hate it before trying to understand it.

Yes, I DID watch the episode. Thanks...

Alyeska wrote:

YT300000 wrote: B&B didn't write this episode. Furthermore this episode explains why the Hansons had UFP authorization to search for the Borg and the E-D didn't know of the Borg. The information on the subject was highly classified.

Doesn't jive. If they had any inkling of knowledge as to how powerful the Borg were, they should have been pushing for more weapons development from the beginning, and the Defiant should have shown up much earlier in some form or another.

And besides, they kept the "omega particle" shit secret while managing to maintain an alert system for starships, why couldn't they do the same thing with the Borg? To deny Starfleet the ability to identify a potentially deadly threat to the Federation is utter stupidity; what if the Borg had come poking around without the Enterprise having been thrown across the galaxy?

And, it's been a long time, but I was under the impression the Hansens were on their own when they were studying the Borg.

Finally, how was Archer able to say they adapted? I mean, if you're shooting a 9mm at some people and suddenly the bullets don't have any effect on them, are you really going to think "Huh. Must have adapted to the bullets."? No, you're going to be "WTF?"

Superman wrote:Yes, I DID watch the episode. Thanks...

No, you saw the visuals and heard the audio, but you didn't actualy watch the episode.

Uraniun235 wrote:Doesn't jive. If they had any inkling of knowledge as to how powerful the Borg were, they should have been pushing for more weapons development from the beginning, and the Defiant should have shown up much earlier in some form or another.

And besides, they kept the "omega particle" shit secret while managing to maintain an alert system for starships, why couldn't they do the same thing with the Borg? To deny Starfleet the ability to identify a potentially deadly threat to the Federation is utter stupidity; what if the Borg had come poking around without the Enterprise having been thrown across the galaxy?

And, it's been a long time, but I was under the impression the Hansens were on their own when they were studying the Borg.

Finally, how was Archer able to say they adapted? I mean, if you're shooting a 9mm at some people and suddenly the bullets don't have any effect on them, are you really going to think "Huh. Must have adapted to the bullets."? No, you're going to be "WTF?"

The Borg didn't show themselves as powerful as they could have been. All that Starfleet knew is that the Enterprise kicked the shit out of them and that was supposedly with their modern technology. They knew to little and tried to learn more, hence the Hansons were sent.

Alyeska wrote:

Superman wrote:Yes, I DID watch the episode. Thanks...

No, you saw the visuals and heard the audio, but you didn't actualy watch the episode.

So, taking in audio and video input, processing it, thinking about it, and reaching a different conclusion of you, means you didn't watch it. What was done then, Alyeska?

Doesn't jive. If they had any inkling of knowledge as to how powerful the Borg were, they should have been pushing for more weapons development from the beginning, and the Defiant should have shown up much earlier in some form or another.

They don't need a Defiant type ship because after this timeframe Starships are actually warships as we see with the Ent-Nil, only later when the top of the line GCS isn't being all it could be (so to speak) do they need to reinvent the wheel.

Also why do you think the Borg so uber? all they need was manage to stalemate an explorer ship (and finally lose out to) that a few months later gets a huge weapons upgrade (i.e. they are now thinking they could walk all over the Borg), while the Borg are powerful when looked at in context of what happened in Ent (when viewed by SF analysts) it ain't that huge compared with saw someone cutting a huge trench through Florida or a war against the Romulans or a cold war with the aggressive Klingons - see my point?

The Borg probably just gathered dust because it was put down to the low tech level of the Ent and the inexperience of SF ("little did they know what was out there those noobs") after all at this point in time most of the other races out there would also stomp the Ent so when a few years down he line SF thinks to itself "we once feared these guys?" they will probably have similar thoughts about most seemingly uber races they met ( of course that is their mistake since the Borg really are uber).

if you're shooting a 9mm at some people and suddenly the bullets don't have any effect on them, are you really going to think "Huh. Must have adapted to the bullets."? No, you're going to be "WTF?"

Hahaha Exactly... Bad writing, bad writing and more freggin' bad writing.

So, taking in audio and video input, processing it, thinking about it, and reaching a different conclusion of you, means you didn't watch it. What was done then, Alyeska?

Apparently, you DO have to agree with him in order to have "watched" the episode. Yeah, whatever... Throwing the Borg into Enterprise is nothing more than an act of desperation. It's how they kept Voyager alive and now it looks like they are taking "Enterprise" down the same beaten trail.

SirNitram wrote:

Alyeska wrote:

Superman wrote:Yes, I DID watch the episode. Thanks...

No, you saw the visuals and heard the audio, but you didn't actualy watch the episode.

So, taking in audio and video input, processing it, thinking about it, and reaching a different conclusion of you, means you didn't watch it. What was done then, Alyeska?

When you watch an episode already having decided your going to hate it, ignore all the examples from that episode that prove continuity was preserved, and then preach the episode was written by B&B (which it was not) and was the worst ENT episode yet slaughtering continuity the whole way through, then you obviously didn't watch the episode. You observed it and decided to hate it for false reasons.

Regeneration fit into Trek continuity perfectly and the way they did it also means the Borg are never seen again. Unlike Voyager, ENT is not going to rely on the Borg to further the series. I think they did a brilliant job and pulled off a good ep.

Here is an interesting idea... 5 TJ phase pistols weren't enough to kill drones, they had to increase to 10 TJ. How powerful is 5 TJ compared to say a 9mm?

Alyeska wrote:Here is an interesting idea... 5 TJ phase pistols weren't enough to kill drones, they had to increase to 10 TJ. How powerful is 5 TJ compared to say a 9mm?

Modern rifles only throw out a few kilojoules of kinetic energy, so a terajoule-range weapon would obviously be orders of magnitude more powerful (in terms of pure energy output) than any modern handgun.

Need I mention the technical absurdity of terajoule-range "phase pistols" in Enterprise? Federation hand weapons are only about 80% efficient in the 24th century, so how can anyone possibly survive firing a 22nd century weapon that throws terajoules of energy at the target? The weapon would release at least a couple of terajoules of waste energy, which would easily kill the wielder.

When will Trek writers learn to keep their stupid yaps shut about specific energy units if they can't use them correctly? A 5 TJ weapon pulse carries the equivalent energy of over a million kilograms of TNT! Why don't we see a catastrophic explosion with every shot?

Ted C wrote:When will Trek writers learn to keep their stupid yaps shut about specific energy units if they can't use them correctly? A 5 TJ weapon pulse carries the equivalent energy of over a million kilograms of TNT! Why don't we see a catastrophic explosion with every shot?

perhaps the vs community has finally drawn the half-assed attention of trek writers

Paramount Executive: "We simply must make our franchise the most powerful in all of sci-fi!! Ideas people?"

trek writer:" umm i how about we remodulate the phase inducers and generate a low level subspace fissure in the tertiary defector backup system. that should increase phaser output to a bajillion terrajoules!"

Rick Berman and Brannon Bragga: [looking at each other confused]"What's a pha-ser?"

Ted C wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Here is an interesting idea... 5 TJ phase pistols weren't enough to kill drones, they had to increase to 10 TJ. How powerful is 5 TJ compared to say a 9mm?

Modern rifles only throw out a few kilojoules of kinetic energy, so a terajoule-range weapon would obviously be orders of magnitude more powerful (in terms of pure energy output) than any modern handgun.

Need I mention the technical absurdity of terajoule-range "phase pistols" in Enterprise. Federation hand weapons are only about 80% efficient in the 24th century, so how can anyone possibly survive firing a 22nd century weapon that throws terajoules of energy at the target? The weapon would release at least a couple of terajoules of waste energy, which would easily kill the wielder.

When will Trek writers learn to keep their stupid yaps shut about specific energy units if they can't use them correctly? A 5 TJ weapon pulse carries the equivalent energy of over a million kilograms of TNT! Why don't we see a catastrophic explosion with every shot?

I thought as much. That means punny little 9mms aren't going to stop the Borg and Worf is REALLY strong with those bladed weapons.

Alyeska wrote:Here is an interesting idea... 5 TJ phase pistols weren't enough to kill drones, they had to increase to 10 TJ. How powerful is 5 TJ compared to say a 9mm?

Since they had previously quantified the Enterprise's main guns at 500 GJ, 5 TJ seems a wee bit high for a handgun, doesn't it? Since when does a handgun carry 10 times more firepower than a capship gun?

Darth Wong wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Here is an interesting idea... 5 TJ phase pistols weren't enough to kill drones, they had to increase to 10 TJ. How powerful is 5 TJ compared to say a 9mm?

Since they had previously quantified the Enterprise's main guns at 500 GJ, 5 TJ seems a wee bit high for a handgun, doesn't it? Since when does a handgun carry 10 times more firepower than a capship gun?

Oh god this is a funny topic right now. I really need to download the episode and find out exactly what they said. I know it was 5 and 10 something, and I *think* it was TJ but I am not sure.

Alyeska wrote:I thought as much. That means punny little 9mms aren't going to stop the Borg and Worf is REALLY strong with those bladed weapons.

You realize, of course, that if you hadn't included the smiley, I would be forced to hunt you down and extract your pancreas with a soup spoon, right?

Alyeska wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Here is an interesting idea... 5 TJ phase pistols weren't enough to kill drones, they had to increase to 10 TJ. How powerful is 5 TJ compared to say a 9mm?

Since they had previously quantified the Enterprise's main guns at 500 GJ, 5 TJ seems a wee bit high for a handgun, doesn't it? Since when does a handgun carry 10 times more firepower than a capship gun?

Oh god this is a funny topic right now. I really need to download the episode and find out exactly what they said. I know it was 5 and 10 something, and I *think* it was TJ but I am not sure.

He says

"Increase power by another 5 MJ"
"Fire"
"keep it going"
"increase to 7 MJ" (which seems odd considering the previous order to increase by another 5 MJ but now he is increasing to 7 MJ but then again MJ isn't a unit of power in any event so the entire thing is odd).
"try 8"
"9"
"the densities holding bring it up to 10"
The target explodes
"that should do it"

Then they decide to modify the rifles (when they were just working on a pistol).

So for the dialogue to make sense, a Phase Pistol's normal output must be no more than 1MJ or thereabouts.

Amusingly, this puts the final nail in any arguments that the Borg can handle sheer power.

SirNitram wrote:So for the dialogue to make sense, a Phase Pistol's normal output must be no more than 1MJ or thereabouts.

Amusingly, this puts the final nail in any arguments that the Borg can handle sheer power.

Wasn't the power output of a TNG phaser rifle in "The Mind's Eye" about one megawatt?

Ted C wrote:

SirNitram wrote:So for the dialogue to make sense, a Phase Pistol's normal output must be no more than 1MJ or thereabouts.

Amusingly, this puts the final nail in any arguments that the Borg can handle sheer power.

Wasn't the power output of a TNG phaser rifle in "The Mind's Eye" about one megawatt?

Yea, in a situation likely to be max-power.

Of course, given that the sheer inefficiency of that gun should bake the user's arms, I'm taking the phase pistol dialogue with a grain of salt.

SirNitram wrote:So for the dialogue to make sense, a Phase Pistol's normal output must be no more than 1MJ or thereabouts.

Amusingly, this puts the final nail in any arguments that the Borg can handle sheer power.

I would say even lower (increase another 5 MJ implying they have already brought it up by a MJ (or 5).

Yet later Reed says he has doubled the particle yield which would put them at 5MJ (since they are now at 10MJ).

Yea, in a situation likely to be max-power.

I see no need for those test to have been carried out at max power, unless there is something I'm not remembering.

TheDarkling wrote:

Yea, in a situation likely to be max-power.

I see no need for those test to have been carried out at max power, unless there is something I'm not remembering.

If you're looking for performance discrepancies, running tests at maximum output will make them more obvious.

Furthermore, such a weapon typically operates at 86.5% efficiency. With an "energy cell usage" of 1.05 MW, such a gun would generate 141 kW of waste energy... more than enough to injure or kill anyone holding it. It seems bizarre to think that the weapon typically fires at that level of power.

Ted C wrote:

TheDarkling wrote:

Yea, in a situation likely to be max-power.

I see no need for those test to have been carried out at max power, unless there is something I'm not remembering.

If you're looking for performance discrepancies, running tests at maximum output will make them more obvious.

Furthermore, such a weapon typically operates at 86.5% efficiency. With an "energy cell usage" of 1.05 MW, such a gun would generate 141 kW of waste energy... more than enough to injure or kill anyone holding it. It seems bizarre to think that the weapon typically fires at that level of power.

And yet we have seen Phasers been used at full power and people didn't tend to die (well except the person being fired at), prehaps the excess energy goes into the nadions that disapear (as they tend to do).

TheDarkling wrote:...we have seen Phasers been used at full power and people didn't tend to die (well except the person being fired at), prehaps the excess energy goes into the nadions that disapear (as they tend to do).

Possibly. It's also possible that the "setting 16" that can be achieved using the controls on the weapon itself is considerably less powerful than what it can be made to do when connected to a starship's diagnostic control system. The latter at least has the virtue of being easier to explain.

Alyeska wrote:Here is an interesting idea... 5 TJ phase pistols weren't enough to kill drones, they had to increase to 10 TJ. How powerful is 5 TJ compared to say a 9mm?

As Ted said, many orders of magnitude (5-10 MJ is ro ughly 5e6-1e7 joules, and a kilojoule is roughly 1e3.

A 9mm (as well as most medium-range handguns) are a few hundred joules at most (e2) while a few of the more powerful ones might make a few kj (e3). Submachine guns would be a bit more powerful than pistols, but less than a rifle.

The most powerful rifles I know of, Antimaterial rifles (such as the Barret light fifty), would be around a few tens of kj, or e4 at best. Most rifles would be, as Ted said, worth a few KJ worth of kinetic energy (per bullet).

A MJ range phase pistol would be hundreds or even thousands (or more) times powerful than a conventional handgun. But only in terms of kinetic energy. Again, as Ted said. A projectile weapon will also carry substantial momentum which will affect the target in addition to any kinetic energy (Mike's talked about this many times - the IXJac discussion and in terms of the TESB asteroid/bridge tower scene.) Its quite conceivable that the Borg shields are quite effective against low-momentum weapons (beam weapons) but ineffecitve against high-momentum ones (bullets, knives, fists, etc.)

I believe Mike has discussed this before too.