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This makes me wonder just *what* younglings/Padawans are taught, during their training. Beyond reading/writing/arithmetic, I would assume that they'd have to be taught practical stuff as well - piloting of course, and Obi-wan knew what recreational drugs were, (though I suppose that could just be from on-the-job-training, so to speak). Kanan seems to have a degree of street smarts, and doesn't come across as naive, so was he taught that, or was that picked up from him going out into the world as a padawan, under his master's tutelage?

I really want to see some canon portrayal of non-Jedi/non-Sith force users...

biostem wrote:This makes me wonder just *what* younglings/Padawans are taught, during their training. Beyond reading/writing/arithmetic, I would assume that they'd have to be taught practical stuff as well - piloting of course, and Obi-wan knew what recreational drugs were, (though I suppose that could just be from on-the-job-training, so to speak). Kanan seems to have a degree of street smarts, and doesn't come across as naive, so was he taught that, or was that picked up from him going out into the world as a padawan, under his master's tutelage?

I suspect that most of the training a Jedi receives is based on field training with a master, Obi-Wan seemed to have that sort of knowledge because of Qui-Gon's influence. I would be surprised if it was terribly common among Jedi masters that seemed to be more removed from the galaxy(like the majority of them).

As for Kanan, he survived the Clone Wars. That tends to encourage one to pick up street smarts, even if they initially lacked it.

I really want to see some canon portrayal of non-Jedi/non-Sith force users...

Even in the old EU there weren't very many good portrayals. The majority of them came from the largely abysmal Jedi Academy series that was written for kids. Though I did like the general idea of the one off book from the series that contrasted Obi-Wan's and Anakin's thoughts on romance as a Jedi, in which Obi-Wan fell for a fellow Jedi trainee, Siri. They jointly realized that they preferred being Jedi to being together. Ultimately she is killed in the Clone Wars and he realizes that love of the sort that he could have had was selfish. He didn't even kill the bounty hunter that killed her, instead leaving him alive as an intelligence source. This leads to Anakin believing that Obi-Wan never really loved her.

One that was somewhat interesting was Yoda: Dark Rendezvous. But that was biased by occurring during the Clone Wars in which Jedi trainees were training to fight a war rather than keep the peace. It somewhat biased the training. Most of what we saw was lightsaber training, given the focus on the war.

Does no one watch trailers any more?

The trailer for season 2 of Rebels shows the Inquisitors are kidnapping force sensitive children.

In addition to that they've made a couple of half-assed efforts to recruit Ezra Bridger.

In The Clone Wars we see that Palpatine was stealing force sensitive children identified by the Jedi.

The 10,000 jedi knights figure is now, sadly, canonical. Kanan mentioned it lately in Rebels.

Adam Reynolds wrote:

Lord Revan wrote: That said I suspect that there's only few dozen survivors of Order 66 at most and it's most likely that large chunk of those were neutralized in the 15 years between ROTS and Rebels.

Especially since padawans would likely be easier targets than knights or masters, having even less knowledge of how to possibly blend in with normal galactic civilization.

true but then Knights and Masters might be so stuck in their ways that they practically scream "jedi" no matter how much they pretend to be otherwise.

and when I said survivors I meant padawans, knight and Masters combinied.

Simon_Jester wrote:The old EU existed for about thirty-five years; EU material started being produced around 1980 and was still being produced in 2013 or 2014 (I forget when Disney lowered the chopper on it). If one new survivor Jedi is introduced every year for that span of time... it adds up.

Check back with me in 2050 and we'll see how many new Jedi survivors Disney has chosen to allow its secondary content creators to portray.

Different circumstances. LFL had pretty much assured everyone that the saga ended in 2005. This opened the flood gates for EU writers to retcon a legion of stories over the entire past decade about survivors of Order 66 without fear of contradicting the films.

If Disney ever announces that Star Wars movies will no longer be made, you might see something similar happen. Until then, I think we're going to get a lot inconsequential filler the likes of which we haven't seen since the days of the original Marvel Star Wars comics.

NecronLord wrote:Does no one watch trailers any more?

The trailer for season 2 of Rebels shows the Inquisitors are kidnapping force sensitive children.

In addition to that they've made a couple of half-assed efforts to recruit Ezra Bridger.

In The Clone Wars we see that Palpatine was stealing force sensitive children identified by the Jedi.

The 10,000 jedi knights figure is now, sadly, canonical. Kanan mentioned it lately in Rebels.

/thread

All my questions answered and even a ruling on the 10,000 Jedi debate.

Galvatron wrote:/thread

All my questions answered and even a ruling on the 10,000 Jedi debate.

Now that I'm back home I'll even post links!

Trailers
Season 2 main trailer "Back when I was your age, but back then there were ten thousand jedi knights."
Season Two NYCC trailer (Inquisitors kidnapping force sensitive Children)

Excerpts
Rebels S2e4 - Seventh Sister offers to recruit Ezra.
Rebels S1e4 - Grand Inquisitor offers to recruit Ezra.

Clone Wars
Palpatine experimenting on kidnapped children in the clone wars (mental conditioning)

Relevant quote: "I foresee an army of Force talented spies in my service. Trained in the Dark Side to peer into every corner of the galaxy from afar. And my enemies will be helpless against such vision."

Discussion From another thread, but that seems to indicate the Sith do have some form of clairvoyance at least in theory. Even if it's not as good as the Jedi's.

When was it ever established that Sith clairvoyance is weaker than Jedi clairvoyance?

It was a contention I made based on a scene in the same Clone Wars story, I'll post more about it soon I think, in a thread devoted to the topic.

Crazedwraith is right that this is evidence that dark siders (it shouldn't be sith specific) can use farsight to find wanted enemies, compelling point.

Galvatron wrote:When was it ever established that Sith clairvoyance is weaker than Jedi clairvoyance?

There is also the corroborating evidence for his theory of Vader's inability to discover the location of the Rebel base in ANH, at a time when there was nothing that should have been weakening Vader's abilities. This was even directly pointed out by Admiral Motti. As well as the apparent inability of either he or Palpatine to discover the Rebels throughout the OT. They instead had to do things the old fashioned way using probe droids and a trap to lure them out.

I would argue that this is due to the fact that the Force was becoming lighter at the time, in something of an inverse of the shroud of the Dark Side. In ANH, Luke was discovering his newfound abilities and Obi-Wan was openly using the Force again for the first time in years. Those two events together likely had an impact in terms of weakening Vader's abilities of foresight. Though that wouldn't entirely explain why he couldn't find them earlier.

Perhaps he was only just being used in this fashion of hunting the Rebels directly after they stole the Death Star plans. He did refer to someone stopping him in the past. Given that Vader seemed to be going to a great deal of trouble to cover up the capture, I would guess that opposition was political, something like Bail Organa using his influence in the Senate as was alluded to by Vader's underling.

Okay, then what are the best examples of stronger Jedi clairvoyance?

Adam Reynolds wrote:Perhaps he was only just being used in this fashion of hunting the Rebels directly after they stole the Death Star plans. He did refer to someone stopping him in the past. Given that Vader seemed to be going to a great deal of trouble to cover up the capture, I would guess that opposition was political, something like Bail Organa using his influence in the Senate as was alluded to by Vader's underling.

ANH was replete with references to the Imperial Senate being a pain in the military's ass. Leia's indignant reaction to being taken prisoner led me to believe that senators still had a great deal of power in the Empire. Under normal circumstances, a senator could probably wreck the career of any military officer brazen enough to harass one of them.

To be fair, Leia was essentially caught in the middle of some highly suspicious circumstances. It'd be like FBI agents nicking a US Senator in the middle of a raid of a drug lord's house. She was blustering, but she knew she was fucked and so did the Imperials-- if the crew of the Corvette had nothing to hide, why did they try to run away and shoot at the boarding party, hmm?

And yet Vader's aide was quick to warn him that "holding her is dangerous!" Vader knew that too or he wouldn't have bothered ordering the cover up.

Oh, no doubt if she'd actually been able to get word to the Senate("Help! The Emperor's lap-dog has arrested me while I was lawfully *mumblemumble* travelling, that's it, kick his ass, etc") that would have been an almighty embarrassment and a public scandal, but that was why Vader hustled her off to the brig and the Death Star. It's all about spin. If said Senator arrested in a drug raid managed to get to the media before the cops did, he could make up some story about how he was unjustly arrested and brutalized, something like that. Even though they have no good excuse, they still have enough public profile and visibility that they can make a scene if they want to.

And I imagine Vader probably knew that the Emperor would dissolve the Senate shortly; he only had to hold on to Organa for a short while before that happened.

Galvatron wrote:Okay, then what are the best examples of stronger Jedi clairvoyance?

Clone Wars S2E3 - Leading Jedi are able to discern where Cad Bane is with ease though they're shut out of Palpatine's Mustafar base.

The plot of two of the original trilogy basically relies on Vader needing mechanical aids to find his enemies. When he was Anakin, he could do that with the force.

Essentially the notion is that, as Yoda says that a Jedi uses the force for Knowledge and Defence, never for attack," and we see that there are attack powers exclusive to the dark side (Lightning) it may be that this kind of divination is exclusive to the light side.

Galvatron wrote:Okay, then what are the best examples of stronger Jedi clairvoyance?

The most explicit example comes from Clone Wars as Necronlord indicated. But Yoda in ESB also heavily references how he had watched Luke grow up. In addition to Yoda being able to see the events on Bespin. Additionally, the fact that the Sith even needed a shroud of the Dark Side indicates that Jedi would have normally been able to find them or discover their plans. TPM also arguably gives an example of this with Qui-Gon's premonitions about Maul being intended to assassinate Padme on Naboo.

Elheru Aran wrote:And I imagine Vader probably knew that the Emperor would dissolve the Senate shortly; he only had to hold on to Organa for a short while before that happened.

Whether Vader knew about the Emperor's plans for the Senate or not, the cover story was that all aboard the Tantive IV were presumably killed in some catastrophic accident so I imagine he could have disappeared Leia to space Gitmo indefinitely.

Padawan or Jedi deemed not a threat who were willing to turn on their fellows, new people discovered and trained up, that sort. Since you aren't looking for the best, the potential pool is reasonably substantial.

Joun_Lord wrote:I doubt these dark siders are really much of a threat to Palps or Vader. They are well trained but not Sith trained, the level involved between the two is probably substantial. Like the difference between a somewhat trained swordsman given a few pointers vs a master who has spent their whole life perfecting the art. Sure the somewhat trained guy is impressive against untrained but compared to the master he is no threat. Any dark sider who gets to big for his britches is probably taken out long before they can become an actual threat.

Right. They were trained how to handle a sword, and combat the common styles, and do force basics, but not how to establish a deep connection with the force like the Jedi or Sith. And having a flaw in their style is quite acceptable, since their job was to prey on the weak, so the speak.

The Inquisitor was the *lead* Inquisitor and he was taken out by a former Padawan. A former Padawan who got up to Knight level and had a major master to be sure, but still, Kanan notes an actual master like Luminara is well beyond him.

I view the Inquisition as a tripline of sorts. They do take down surviving padawan and lesser Jedi, but against stronger foes, what they're *expected* to do is demonstrate the existence of a real danger to Lord Vader. He thus only has to spend time on those who can beat an Inquisitor, at the 'cost' of having a force using organization that's really no threat to the Sith lords even if they turned against them.

Elheru Aran wrote:Oh, no doubt if she'd actually been able to get word to the Senate("Help! The Emperor's lap-dog has arrested me while I was lawfully *mumblemumble* travelling, that's it, kick his ass, etc") that would have been an almighty embarrassment and a public scandal, but that was why Vader hustled her off to the brig and the Death Star. It's all about spin. If said Senator arrested in a drug raid managed to get to the media before the cops did, he could make up some story about how he was unjustly arrested and brutalized, something like that. Even though they have no good excuse, they still have enough public profile and visibility that they can make a scene if they want to.

This is a somewhat late response, but it just occurred to me. The problem with a contemporary analogy is that the US government doesn't exactly have secret police, at least not those that don't directly report to the US Congress.

The FBI has been largely forbidden from investigating members of the US Congress since the 1970s when they rather famously attempted this. ABSCAM, as it became known, was a short term victory but a long term headache for the FBI. There were major allegations about it being revenge for Congressional inquires into the FBI in the wake of Hoover's death.

What would especially help Leia is her reputation for being involved in "mercy missions." She could easily claim that she came to be connected to the battle through that. After the Empire fired upon her, she attempted to defend herself. If she had records of having first transmitted an Imperial Senate ID, then there would have been less legal grounds to fire upon her ship.

Adam Reynolds wrote: This is a somewhat late response, but it just occurred to me. The problem with a contemporary analogy is that the US government doesn't exactly have secret police, at least not those that don't directly report to the US Congress.

The FBI has been largely forbidden from investigating members of the US Congress since the 1970s when they rather famously attempted this. ABSCAM, as it became known, was a short term victory but a long term headache for the FBI. There were major allegations about it being revenge for Congressional inquires into the FBI in the wake of Hoover's death.

What would especially help Leia is her reputation for being involved in "mercy missions." She could easily claim that she came to be connected to the battle through that. After the Empire fired upon her, she attempted to defend herself. If she had records of having first transmitted an Imperial Senate ID, then there would have been less legal grounds to fire upon her ship.

I'd place credits on there being jamming involved.

Also, we know that around this point was when they were about to close down the Senate. Vader would know that, so it provides cover for what else he's doing- the media is looking elsewhere.

Q99 wrote:Padawan or Jedi deemed not a threat who were willing to turn on their fellows, new people discovered and trained up, that sort. Since you aren't looking for the best, the potential pool is reasonably substantial.

Joun_Lord wrote:I doubt these dark siders are really much of a threat to Palps or Vader. They are well trained but not Sith trained, the level involved between the two is probably substantial. Like the difference between a somewhat trained swordsman given a few pointers vs a master who has spent their whole life perfecting the art. Sure the somewhat trained guy is impressive against untrained but compared to the master he is no threat. Any dark sider who gets to big for his britches is probably taken out long before they can become an actual threat.

Right. They were trained how to handle a sword, and combat the common styles, and do force basics, but not how to establish a deep connection with the force like the Jedi or Sith. And having a flaw in their style is quite acceptable, since their job was to prey on the weak, so the speak.

The Inquisitor was the *lead* Inquisitor and he was taken out by a former Padawan. A former Padawan who got up to Knight level and had a major master to be sure, but still, Kanan notes an actual master like Luminara is well beyond him.

I view the Inquisition as a tripline of sorts. They do take down surviving padawan and lesser Jedi, but against stronger foes, what they're *expected* to do is demonstrate the existence of a real danger to Lord Vader. He thus only has to spend time on those who can beat an Inquisitor, at the 'cost' of having a force using organization that's really no threat to the Sith lords even if they turned against them.

I don't think its simply training differences. Their might be some of that (I doubt Palpatine or Vader would teach everything they knew to a potential rival), but their's also the question of who Palpatine and Vader are as individuals.

Even among Sith Lords, they're exceptional. Palpatine is not only extremely powerful, he's old. Which might hamper him physically somewhat (though less than it would an ordinary man), but also means he's extremely experienced. And while his mental stability is highly dubious at best, that means he knows things others won't. He's probably learned pretty much every trick when it comes to swordplay, the Force (or at least the Dark Side), and political maneuvering.

Vader, meanwhile, is the Chosen One with the extraordinary midichlorian count, and if Mustafar weakened him physically, I think it also in a way strengthened him mentally.

See, Vader stands out to me because he very rarely, if ever, has any kind of emotional outburst. Its hard to judge with the mask, of course, but he generally seems very cold, controlled, and methodical. He learned the price of the stupid arrogance some Sith are prone too.

Vader, in short, is probably a lot less likely to be sloppy than a lot of those who use the Dark Side.

Q99 wrote:Also, we know that around this point was when they were about to close down the Senate. Vader would know that, so it provides cover for what else he's doing- the media is looking elsewhere.

Why the assumption that Vader was privy to the Senate's impending dissolution? If he DID know, he certainly didn't let his officers in on it. Nor did he tell them that the cover story was unnecessary.

Hell, even Tarkin didn't know until after the fact.

Not that I doubt it, but do you know that Tarkin didn't know until afterwards for sure? Does it mention that in the novelization or something? I see no reason he couldn't have been informed beforehand and told to make it seem as though it was news to him.

As for Vader being privy to the Senate being closed down: He's the Emperor's right-hand man. If the Emperor tells him something and then orders him to keep schtum about it, he will. You think generals tell their officers everything?

By the same token, what makes you think that the Emperor told Vader everything? I don't recall anyone calling Vader his right-hand man in ANH. If anything, Leia believed he was Tarkin's dog and probably had a reputation for it.

I'd sooner believe that his inner circle on Coruscant knew about it. Guys like Mas Amedda and his advisers.

That's a fair enough way of looking at it. It's an interesting thought; what does it say about the Emperor and Vader's relationship pre ANH? Did the Emperor decide to distance himself from Vader in order to pursue an alternative apprentice? Was Vader in bad odour with the Emperor after his failure and near destruction on Mustafar? And so forth.

Anyway, I note you still didn't answer about your source for Tarkin being uninformed about the Senate's disbanding. Even more so if Tarkin outranks Vader, he would be more likely to know in advance about such a move.