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If you are buying strictly for home defense, you should go for a double barrel, over/under.

First, you got two shots that will fire. Sounds little, but if someone is breaking and entering, you might get so stressed that you might forget to pump, pump halfway (both means it goes click when it should go boom), or pump more than once, which wastes ammo.
Also, in a home defense situation, if the first two shots didn't help, the next 1 or 2 rounds a pump action might hold probably won't help you. Either they are upon you by then, or they have taken cover to return fire. Reloading a double barrel gun is easier than a pumpaction and done quite quickly, so you won't be much at an disadvantage.

In theory, an over/under configuration would be best, because both barrels aim at the same point, while a sidebyside will have a few inches deviation. That won't be much of an issue when someone is coming at you in a corridor or room, but if you are more than ten yards away, this might be the difference between a hit or a miss. Hitting someone a bit lower is less of a problem than missing to the side.

Also, forget the idea of using a lighter load for the first barrel. If you are not willing to kill whatever you are aiming at, a gun isn't the right tool for you. Hesitating or trying to aim low to avoid lethal hits is what will get you killed in such a situation.

Go and try some shotguns - any dealer worth buying from will let you test them. Start with the bigger calibers, and use buckshot. Forget slugs - you're not going to hunt a bear, but trying to hit something that will duck and weave. Buckshot takes down deer and coyotes, so it can take down a man, reliably, too.

I'd say, for defense purposes, if you can fire four shots without starting to close your eyes in anticipation of the bang or hurting too bad, the calibre is right for you. You don't need a gun you can shoot a hundred rounds with, comfortable. To actually hit the target, go to the range once a month...

TheFeniX wrote:My CX4 has a 16.6" barrel and is half the length of my Mossberg pump.

And you're in Texas and I'm not. Going by the advice of the knowledgable locals here I'm not sure your CX4 would be legal in this state without some additional permitting/tax stamp/cost.

And adrenaline is not your friend when firing a weapon, unlike the strength it gives you when swinging a bat (or shovel). This is why I preach practice X infinity (and why I brought up my pistol experience): when shit hits the fan, you're working off muscle memory. Even if you haven't fired the gun much, you can still practice reloading with "dummy" ammo and work the action until the entire process is one step in your mind.

Well, yes, and here's another one – just going over the proper steps in your mind will help you in an emergency, “going through the motions” with an unloaded gun will help, and so forth.

I have been in enough highly charged situations in my life to have a good idea of how I react under extreme stress. I would expect I wouldn't feel the weight of the gun at all, but that doesn't translate into a loss of control with adequate preparation.

TheFeniX wrote:They aren't cheap though, not like the Hi-Point 9mm carbine or a Mossberg pump.

If it ain't cheap I can't buy it. It's that simple. I'm on a very, very limited budget here.

TheFeniX wrote:I can hold my CX4 against my shoulder with only my dominant hand for quite a while, such as in a situation when I'd be on the phone and have the weapon leveled at my locked door. I can't do that with my 12-gauge for any considerable amount of time.

Why the fuck would I divide my attention like that?

Keep in mind that most of the time there are TWO people in this household. One can engage the enemy while the other calls for help/gathers other weapons/whatever. Teamwork, it's a great concept.

If there's only one person, well, a shotgun being fired WILL get the attention of the neighbors, who I expect will call the cops just because that's what has happened in the past. Rather than trying to dial a phone AND juggle a gun I'd rather deal with the immediate threat and worry about the phone later.

LaCroix wrote:If you are buying strictly for home defense, you should go for a double barrel, over/under.

First, you got two shots that will fire. Sounds little, but if someone is breaking and entering, you might get so stressed that you might forget to pump, pump halfway (both means it goes click when it should go boom), or pump more than once, which wastes ammo.

The gun store salesman warned about the “forget to pump” problem, too. He seemed to favor the break-action ones for home defense, but of course, being a good salesman, he did show me the full range of choices.

I understand where Fenix is coming from, a pistol caliber carbine is a great shooter, cause it will have very light recoil. But as you said, it may require more effort and money to obtain and if your on a budget that can be a deal breaker.

Now, on the topic, I own a Remington 870 for home defense. It has the shortest barrel I can have, it has a light on it for night time defense situations. That being said, a shotgun, pump or break open, isn't just pull the trigger in the general area. You will need to aim, you will need to practice. If you go with a pump, an 870 being my recommendation for pump, I would suggest once a month, getting a couple boxes of birdshot and running that through the gun. It will help overcome you tendency to flinch or startle at the shot. It will also help build muscle memory of racking the action after each shot. That being said, an over/under 20 gauge with the right load will work just as fine. Cause even with having to reload after two shots, most criminals will immediately retreat after, not wanting to face armed resistance.

Now on the topic of actual home defense employment of the weapon, like others have said, I wouldn't worry about trying to do two things at once. If you've got the shotgun out, worry about calling the police until the threat has passed, hopefully by the subject leaving, which would be your best outcome. For me, I have more options just by nature of my line of work, as I usually have a loaded duty belt in my room, including taser, pistol and other gear.

Since he brings it up, some kind of light attached to the barrel would be a good idea; not only does it save you finding the light switch but it can half-blind whoever you're pointing the gun at. A multi-LED pocket torch and some duct tape would probably do well enough.

Question about 12 vs 20 gauge shotguns, what is the limit in the 20 gauge ammo wise? Is that really a problem cost wise, like going for #1 shot vs 00 etc. Also just general consideration, recoil of a 20 gauge vs 12 gauge in standard sizes vs specialty loads, again thinking and her cost wise, do the specialty low recoil shells cost more. Basically is it more cost effective to go 12 gauge with non standard shell vs 20 gauge with standard loads.

I think that would take some research.

Broomstick wrote: Why the fuck would I divide my attention like that?

Keep in mind that most of the time there are TWO people in this household. One can engage the enemy while the other calls for help/gathers other weapons/whatever. Teamwork, it's a great concept.

If there's only one person, well, a shotgun being fired WILL get the attention of the neighbors, who I expect will call the cops just because that's what has happened in the past. Rather than trying to dial a phone AND juggle a gun I'd rather deal with the immediate threat and worry about the phone later.

If you have 911 on the phone before the guy manages to break in you have a record of events to back up your side in case anyone you wind up shooting the intruder. But that's what having a speakerphone option is for and assumes you've got enough time.

My two cents:
Shotguns are effective. They don't spread enough that you can't aim. Rule of thumb is the shot spread is 1" per yard. So 15 yards will be 15 inches. You'll still need to aim. The limiting factor on shotgun length is going to be the barrel length. Even a break action shotgun is going to be over a yard long. This is because you need the trigger to be a certain distance from the buttplate, and the barrel is going to start ahead of the trigger. Also, you're going to need to have appropriate ammo. Bird shot won't cut it. You'll need buckshot. #4 is recommended by some, due to the smaller size giving more pellets, while still having the umph to penetrate enough. The reduced umph compared to 00 buck means it'll go through less drywall when you miss, and so be less dangerous to your neighbors. The H&R Pardner Pump Protector might not be a bad idea. It's actually a Remington 870 clone, built in China and costs $200-230. Because it's an 870 clone, it can take all the accessories for an 870, so if you want to change the stock, etc, you can. It just doesn't take an 870 barrel. I'd recommend a semi-auto shotgun, but they generally don't fall into your price range. Reason being, you can't accidentaly short shuck them like a pump.

I'd recommend a rifle. Something like a Sub-2000 is only 29.5" long, 2/3 the weight, and accurate enough. MSRP on that is $400. It also happens to fold in half, so you can fit it into a smaller lockbox (and for that matter, leave it loaded, as it can't fire until unfolded). A rifle caliber would actually be better, in that they tend to penetrate less after going through a wall, but it's difficult to find a suitable .223 for the price you want. Reason why they penetrate less is that going through the first wall tends to cause them to destabilize, so they go through the air sideways for the rest of their trajectory, which slows them down alot. That said, it's still going to go for a ways.

Not a gun person at all, but I would say go for the most reliable gun you can afford.
I get the impression the weapon could spend a long time just sitting around, untouched gathering up dust. If you're ever forced to actually use it, you want your next two words after pulling that trigger to be "Fuck yeah!", not "Oh fuck..."

Something you can do that is free? Go outside, look at your house, and pretend that you're a burglar trying to best decide how to break in. Take note of easy and quick places that can be smashed into*, what valuables can be seen from windows, and how'd you know that nobody is around.

*In general, most criminals don't care who they take from, if it's not too risky or takes too long to pay off.

On rifles and overpenetration, a softpoint 223 or other non FMJ bullet suitable for self defence is very good for these kind of situations, 9mm penetrates drywall and keeps going better than a soft point 223 will.

If you're going for a rifle, get a an AR, it's really the gun unless you're in an AWB state. Otherwise a shotgun, rem 870 or Mossberg 500/590. Kit it out with a light after if you like. From what I see it's pretty much these three guns it boils down when handguns are thrown out. Though you should check before buying an AR so aren't getting shafted and paying top dollar for the cheapest budget shit they got. Palmetto state armory is a good brand for the money when it comes to ARs.

Broomstick wrote:

TheFeniX wrote:My CX4 has a 16.6" barrel and is half the length of my Mossberg pump.

And you're in Texas and I'm not. Going by the advice of the knowledgable locals here I'm not sure your CX4 would be legal in this state without some additional permitting/tax stamp/cost.

IIRC you''re in indiana, it's practically texas when it comes to gun laws. You don't have an AWB anymore since 2004, you don't have any special barrel limits (the 16" for rifles and 18" for shotguns is a federal law), you can pretty much own anything a texan can. Anything that would require a tax-stamp is a federal thing too. I can't say for sure there aren't any extra special snowflake city ordinances where you are but I doubt it.

If knowledgeable people locally are saying different, keep in mind that gun owners are horrible people and when the talk on the gun range starts up the effect is like like someone stamping all they can on an overfilled colostomy bag. Trust me, I'm a gun owner.

LaCroix wrote:If you are buying strictly for home defense, you should go for a double barrel, over/under.

Can you get a break action for under $400 new these days?

First, you got two shots that will fire. Sounds little, but if someone is breaking and entering, you might get so stressed that you might forget to pump, pump halfway (both means it goes click when it should go boom), or pump more than once, which wastes ammo.

Or you could forget to remove the safety and the double-barrel doesn't fire. I get people want simple, but if you can't be expected to remember the basics of a firearm when under pressure, you probably shouldn't be using one for defense. You can practice the pumping-action of a shotgun without ever firing the gun. It's not difficult.

Also, in a home defense situation, if the first two shots didn't help, the next 1 or 2 rounds a pump action might hold probably won't help you. Either they are upon you by then, or they have taken cover to return fire. Reloading a double barrel gun is easier than a pumpaction and done quite quickly, so you won't be much at an disadvantage.

5 rounds vs 2 means you don't have to reload with a pump. Your playing up some kind of weird scenario where the break-action comes out ahead for reasons I can't begin to comprehend. Re-read your post, seriously.

Pumps also have the advantage of (even though I generally don't recommend it) having the gun loaded, but not chambered. Making accidental discharges with the weapon impossible, even if the safety is off.

Broomstick wrote:And you're in Texas and I'm not. Going by the advice of the knowledgable locals here I'm not sure your CX4 would be legal in this state without some additional permitting/tax stamp/cost.

The Hi-Point is much more in line with your budget. I would look into it's legality in your state if you have any inkling towards a lighter and shorter weapon. It's in $300 range, probably even less if you shop around. But I don't think you will find a more reliable and cheaper weapon than something like the Mossberg Pump. It's in the Sub-$200 range and it is an excellent weapon.

TheFeniX wrote:

LaCroix wrote:If you are buying strictly for home defense, you should go for a double barrel, over/under.

Can you get a break action for under $400 new these days?

Yes.

As mentioned earlier, the Mossberg 500 is a great no frills, but very reliable pump action shotgun

You can get the 500 12/18.5 SYN SHORT STOCK for under $300. Put some ghost rings sights on it and you're ready to go.

Mossberg also has their 500 Bantam series designed for younger and or smaller folks. They're a little smaller and lighter then the full sized 500s, but work just the same.

His Divine Shadow wrote:On rifles and overpenetration, a softpoint 223 or other non FMJ bullet suitable for self defence is very good for these kind of situations, 9mm penetrates drywall and keeps going better than a soft point 223 will.

If you're going for a rifle, get a an AR, it's really the gun unless you're in an AWB state. Otherwise a shotgun, rem 870 or Mossberg 500/590. Kit it out with a light after if you like. From what I see it's pretty much these three guns it boils down when handguns are thrown out. Though you should check before buying an AR so aren't getting shafted and paying top dollar for the cheapest budget shit they got. Palmetto state armory is a good brand for the money when it comes to ARs.

I've heard good stuff about PSA rifles... but they're still $550 and up, while she has a limit of $500.

Broomstick, I recall something about your husband having a disability. I might be mixing you with another member, but isn't he in a wheelchair?

At the risk of saying the obvious and I'm not completely mistaken, have you considered whether he can use it too?

I'm just saying in case you forgot to consider that.

TheFeniX wrote:Or you could forget to remove the safety and the double-barrel doesn't fire. I get people want simple, but if you can't be expected to remember the basics of a firearm when under pressure, you probably shouldn't be using one for defense. You can practice the pumping-action of a shotgun without ever firing the gun. It's not difficult.

Pumpaction also has a safety. so Pumping ads one necessary step which is needed for each shot. Which is quite often done wrong when it counts. As you can look up, Broomstick mentioned that her dealer warned her of exactly the same thing. Also, a pump action can get jammed when left rotting in a cupboard for long time without maintenance. A double barrel won't bother that much.

5 rounds vs 2 means you don't have to reload with a pump. Your playing up some kind of weird scenario where the break-action comes out ahead for reasons I can't begin to comprehend. Re-read your post, seriously.

Most defense situation only need one shot fired to incapacitate or send the perp running, and maybe a second if he's persistent and keeps coming. I've never heard about a long-winded shootout happening between a home-owner and a burglar.

My weapons dealer told me the same, back then - a pumpaction is to have fun at the range, but for home defense, nothing beats a good old reliable double barrel.

Zixinus wrote:Broomstick, I recall something about your husband having a disability. I might be mixing you with another member, but isn't he in a wheelchair?

Nope, not since the age of 9. He is disabled, but able to walk.

At the risk of saying the obvious and I'm not completely mistaken, have you considered whether he can use it too?

He actually has more practical experience with guns than I do, and yeah, I'm reasonable sure we can find a gun we can both handle.

LaCroix wrote:Pumpaction also has a safety. so Pumping ads one necessary step which is needed for each shot. Which is quite often done wrong when it counts. As you can look up, Broomstick mentioned that her dealer warned her of exactly the same thing. Also, a pump action can get jammed when left rotting in a cupboard for long time without maintenance. A double barrel won't bother that much.

I haven't cleaned my Mossberg in 5 years, probably longer. I might bother oiling it if I was shooting when it was really dry outside, but it's been at least 2 years since I'd even last fired it. Action cycles with no issue. Still fires without misfires or jams. If you decide to leave it loaded, but not chambered, there's zero reason to have the safety on unless you have kids around and the safety isn't going to stop them anyways.

Besides, what's to stop you from pulling the same trigger on the break-action after the first round and nothing happening? What's to stop you from pulling both triggers at once by mistake? Practice.

Most defense situation only need one shot fired to incapacitate or send the perp running, and maybe a second if he's persistent and keeps coming. I've never heard about a long-winded shootout happening between a home-owner and a burglar.

Yet you're talking about burglars taking cover and returning fire. You're talking about how, in a longer engagement, a pump will have less effective ammo capacity than a 2-shot. This isn't a good argument. Yes, it's valid that one shot with one for backup is probably all you need. But what if you do need more? What if you have a bad shell? And what if the ability to carry more ammo means the gun is likely cheaper (I'd have to hunt for a new break-action anywhere near the low price tag of a pump, if Broomstick found one, kudos: they are great shotguns I've avoided due to the premium price-tag many come with) and minimal practice is required to learn to operate it?

Break-actions have their own nuances you're ignoring. The wife's 22-gauge Springfield has such tight tolerances and so little weight in the barrel, the action will not break on it's own: you have to push the release, then push the barrel down manually. She also can't reliably push the release to even open the thing. This is after I've broken it down and spent 30 minutes cleaning every part. It also won't reliably eject spent shells forcing me to manually pull them out, unlike my dad's 10-gauge goose gun which is a stellar shotgun on all fronts, if not brutally punishing on your shoulder.

It's been used and abused just like my Mossberg, yet the Mossberg is easier to work than it is.

My weapons dealer told me the same, back then - a pumpaction is to have fun at the range, but for home defense, nothing beats a good old reliable double barrel.

Since when are salesmen the go to for valuable information about gun defense? Hell, I can and have found salesmen willing to tell me handguns are the best option or rifles. And in some situations, they likely are, but it doesn't make their point valid just because they happen to work with guns.

If price is the biggest deciding factor: I still recommend the 12/20-gauge pump because I've never seen a side-by-side (or god forbid an over-under) as cheap as a Remington or Mossberg pump. If I'm wrong in this, I apologize. Even Academy won't sell their cheapest one for less than $380 and they've always had some of the best prices on long-guns. I can walk in right now and get a Maverick 12-gauge for $180. There's 20-gauge pumps in the same price area. They are ridiculously good quality shotguns for that price.

I have to agree that the pump is a better choice. As much as I like my Baikal coach gun, it's relevant to point out that I like the way it is AFTER the modifications, and those mods are something a new gun owner probably shouldn't attempt on their own.

LaCroix wrote:Most defense situation only need one shot fired to incapacitate or send the perp running, and maybe a second if he's persistent and keeps coming. I've never heard about a long-winded shootout happening between a home-owner and a burglar.

This sounds more reasonable, if you have multiple burglars you are probably in the same situation, first shot they run or you're facing an experienced armed gang and you're screwed pump action or not. It's a confused situation, they have no idea what you're handling (just that this person has a firearm and their life is in danger), most people don't count shots or even see the person shooting at them. Once an alarm or shot is fired majority of criminals know it's over and bail out, most don't even attempt a home that's occupied, unless like her initial encounter they are strung out or drunk idiots.

I like to recommend Saiga 12 or 20 gauge shotguns for home defense.

Basically an AK-47 chambered for shotgun rounds.

They have the same capacity as other semi-autos (unless you pay out the nose for a drum magazine) but can reload much faster thanks to their detachable magazines.

You can also get AR style rifles chambered for shotgun rounds.

I'd like to recommend you ignore Jaepheth and his suggestions. His suggestions would take your budget, and obliterate it. For a Saiga or an AR style semi-auto shotgun, you could buy three pump action shotguns.

Yeah, I suspected that. By this time I'm sort of used to people who either ignore the statement "I'm fucking poor" or are clueless as to what, exactly, that means.