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Purple wrote:

Batman wrote:Am I allowed to ammend my post to say'no modern manportable anti-tank missile can do so on its on without involving secondary explosions?'

That depends on if you consider the Davy Crockett man portable.

If by man portable you mean horendasuly impractical but still movable by a team of two then yes it is man portable

Jedi Commisar wrote:If by man portable you mean horendasuly impractical but still movable by a team of two then yes it is man portable

well consider the stuff militaries consider manportable yes that would be more or less the military defination.

Borgholio wrote:Good analogy...but the only time we see it actually function as a U-boat is in ST-6 and even then after at least a dozen hits, the Enterprise is still combat capable.

while it's not a 100% fit in most episodes of TNG (I watched quite bit of those when my PC was broken) BoP either warped in or more often decloaked and started firing before the opponents can react to their presence (most of the time even we the viewers won't know of it until we see the shield flashes from the disruptors), where as the D7/K'tinga line almost always decloaks well in advance if they bother to cloak at all, same with the Vor'cha-class, Negh'var-class is seen in only one episode of TNG so I can't say much about that (and IIRC most of DS9 it's only the namesake ship of the class that we see).

Lord Revan wrote:

Borgholio wrote:In TOS we see the Enterprise often going up against Klingon Battlecruisers and beating the snot out of them. You would think that a battlecruiser would be a much more dangerous foe than a bird of prey...

I used the U-boat analogy on purpose, like U-boats Birds of Prey have not chance against a cruiser on even ground, but when using their stealth to get the first blow they can easily cause signifigant enough damage to a cruiser to for it to retreat or even destroy it.

True but in ST3, it was the Enterprise that got the jump on the cloaked BoP - they fired as it was decloaking, before its shields were up, and still "lost".

In ST:Gen, whilst using a sneaky tactic, the Enterprise could see the BoP just fine.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:

Borgholio wrote:In TOS we see the Enterprise often going up against Klingon Battlecruisers and beating the snot out of them. You would think that a battlecruiser would be a much more dangerous foe than a bird of prey...

I used the U-boat analogy on purpose, like U-boats Birds of Prey have not chance against a cruiser on even ground, but when using their stealth to get the first blow they can easily cause signifigant enough damage to a cruiser to for it to retreat or even destroy it.

True but in ST3, it was the Enterprise that got the jump on the cloaked BoP - they fired as it was decloaking, before its shields were up, and still "lost".

In ST:Gen, whilst using a sneaky tactic, the Enterprise could see the BoP just fine.

you do realize that those 2 examples only enforce my point in ST3 it was considered wierd that Entersprise didn't just blow the BoP out of the proverbial water and indeed it was assume that should happen (the fact Enterprise had about 1/100th of the crew it normally had being reason for the loss as the automation system wasn't built for combat) and in generations the Duras sisters didn't decloak until after they were sure they could shoot thru Enterprise-D's shields, actually I can't remember an single instance of Enterprise (any version) getting the first shot on a Bird of Prey or at the very least not being ambushed by said BoP and getting out fought by that BoP in 1 on 1 fight.

In TSFS the fucking Klingons thought they were toast when faced with a Constitution that got the drop on them (and likely would have been if Scotty's jury-riggged automation hadn't gone tits-up) and in GEN Riker fired one phaser blast and then apparently concluded that 'well, that single shot apparently didn't break down their shields, so they're obviously immune to phasers' and went down technobabble road instead of simply I dunno, going to rapid fire on all phasers and torpedo launchers.

Riker fired one phaser blast and then apparently concluded that 'well, that single shot apparently didn't break down their shields, so they're obviously immune to phasers' and went down technobabble road instead of simply I dunno, going to rapid fire on all phasers and torpedo launchers.

Don't get me started on that.

I argue it away as all just an hallucination Data had when his personality chip malfunctioned.

Borgholio wrote:

Riker fired one phaser blast and then apparently concluded that 'well, that single shot apparently didn't break down their shields, so they're obviously immune to phasers' and went down technobabble road instead of simply I dunno, going to rapid fire on all phasers and torpedo launchers.

Don't get me started on that.

http://youtu.be/azSh47-oRPI?t=2m39s

Batman wrote:In TSFS the fucking Klingons thought they were toast when faced with a Constitution that got the drop on them (and likely would have been if Scotty's jury-riggged automation hadn't gone tits-up) and in GEN Riker fired one phaser blast and then apparently concluded that 'well, that single shot apparently didn't break down their shields, so they're obviously immune to phasers' and went down technobabble road instead of simply I dunno, going to rapid fire on all phasers and torpedo launchers.

I always figured Riker was making the command decision of him not being able to do enough damage fast enough since they were punching through the shields and he wasn't. You know, since, once he had gotten their shields down and wrecked them utterly, they did have to crash land immediately. All things being equal, it makes sense when in context of what happens.

Nephtys wrote:This thread actually goes onto something else entirely... which is, 'Has a Bird of Prey ever LOST a straight-up fight?'

A little bird of prey with what, like 30 crew members? Pretty much aces a Constitution, an Excelsior, a Galaxy, and messes up the Defiant on several occasions. Not bad for a shipclass that's had a service life of what? 90 years?

In addition to what others have said (the cruiser versus U-boat analogy), there have been plenty of examples in DS9 of BoPs taking on superficially similar Jem'Hadar ships (small, fast, light defences, heavy armament) and coming off much worse-for-wear. Though these have mostly been in pitched large-scale battles where the Klingon cloak advantage isn't factored in.

Gaidin wrote:

Batman wrote:In TSFS the fucking Klingons thought they were toast when faced with a Constitution that got the drop on them (and likely would have been if Scotty's jury-riggged automation hadn't gone tits-up) and in GEN Riker fired one phaser blast and then apparently concluded that 'well, that single shot apparently didn't break down their shields, so they're obviously immune to phasers' and went down technobabble road instead of simply I dunno, going to rapid fire on all phasers and torpedo launchers.

I always figured Riker was making the command decision of him not being able to do enough damage fast enough since they were punching through the shields and he wasn't. You know, since, once he had gotten their shields down and wrecked them utterly, they did have to crash land immediately. All things being equal, it makes sense when in context of what happens.

This would make sense if there wasn't prior precedent of the E-D being able to slag a Bird of Prey in one salvo. I know the crew is contractually obligated to forget their solutions from one week to the next, but they could at least have fired another phaser burst and a torpedo salvo as they turned heel to flee.

Venator wrote: This would make sense if there wasn't prior precedent of the E-D being able to slag a Bird of Prey in one salvo. I know the crew is contractually obligated to forget their solutions from one week to the next, but they could at least have fired another phaser burst and a torpedo salvo as they turned heel to flee.

Do all those other precedents have the same context of one ship punching through shields where the other can't? Out of curiosity. I've watched the show, but I don't remember nearly that much detail. That is a fairly unique fight. I mean, most times you're having a torpedo hit the shields you're still doing damage to the ship as far as I remember, but you're not doing the torpedo's full damage capabilities if I remember correctly.

Gaidin wrote:

Venator wrote: This would make sense if there wasn't prior precedent of the E-D being able to slag a Bird of Prey in one salvo. I know the crew is contractually obligated to forget their solutions from one week to the next, but they could at least have fired another phaser burst and a torpedo salvo as they turned heel to flee.

Do all those other precedents have the same context of one ship punching through shields where the other can't? Out of curiosity. I've watched the show, but I don't remember nearly that much detail. That is a fairly unique fight. I mean, most times you're having a torpedo hit the shields you're still doing damage to the ship as far as I remember, but you're not doing the torpedo's full damage capabilities if I remember correctly.

That's a good point, and I don't think there have been other examples of an enemy simply ignoring shields (nitpick though, I believe the guns the BoP was doing damage with were disruptor cannons rather than full-blown torpedoes).

My complaint about how they acted though was more that in the time it takes a big whale like the Enterprise to turn around, break orbit, and... (get to warp? Not sure what exactly they were planning at that point), they would have spent a lot more exposed to shield-skipping bombardment than they would have if they had just unloaded with everything on the BoP and killed or crippled it.

Even if it would not have been an instant kill, the E-D should have unloaded everything it had at the BoP *WHILE* they were trying to figure out why it was going through their shields, align for warp, or figuring out some technobabble solution. Instead they literally fire one shot and that's it.

The enemy being able to ignore your shields is exactly the situation where you want to pour it on as much as you can to take out the enemy as quickly as possible. Pounding away at them until the shield gives is something that reliably works. It may not work in time to save them, but what do they gain from NOT firing back? Rerouting power to shields is moderately pointless until they figure out why those're not doing their job, they had apparently no intention of getting out of there in a hurry so neither would rerouting power to engines (and the crew do usually mention it when they do stuff like that), so what did they have to lose? They either manage to take out the BoP so automatic win or they don't and still have to try the technobabble solution but have lost nothing by trying the traditional way.

Venator wrote:That's a good point, and I don't think there have been other examples of an enemy simply ignoring shields (nitpick though, I believe the guns the BoP was doing damage with were disruptor cannons rather than full-blown torpedoes).

the attack of Enterprise-D was a mix of Torpedos from the front launcher and disruptor fire from the wingtip cannons, probably the only time in the entire franchice that Klingons have fired all weapons in tandem (normally it's either just torps or just disruptors)

Lord Revan wrote:

Venator wrote:That's a good point, and I don't think there have been other examples of an enemy simply ignoring shields (nitpick though, I believe the guns the BoP was doing damage with were disruptor cannons rather than full-blown torpedoes).

the attack of Enterprise-D was a mix of Torpedos from the front launcher and disruptor fire from the wingtip cannons, probably the only time in the entire franchice that Klingons have fired all weapons in tandem (normally it's either just torps or just disruptors)

Ah, it's been so long I'd forgotten - I only remembered the wingtip guns.

Venator wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:

Venator wrote:That's a good point, and I don't think there have been other examples of an enemy simply ignoring shields (nitpick though, I believe the guns the BoP was doing damage with were disruptor cannons rather than full-blown torpedoes).

the attack of Enterprise-D was a mix of Torpedos from the front launcher and disruptor fire from the wingtip cannons, probably the only time in the entire franchice that Klingons have fired all weapons in tandem (normally it's either just torps or just disruptors)

Ah, it's been so long I'd forgotten - I only remembered the wingtip guns.

It's not that hard to miss the torps tbh since IIRC we never see the BoP fire them only see them hit the Enterprise (and thus couldn't be fire by it) and it's very rare for non-UFP to use their weapons like that it's normally almost always exclusively energy weapons or torps but never both in the same fight.

Batman wrote:The enemy being able to ignore your shields is exactly the situation where you want to pour it on as much as you can to take out the enemy as quickly as possible. Pounding away at them until the shield gives is something that reliably works. It may not work in time to save them, but what do they gain from NOT firing back? Rerouting power to shields is moderately pointless until they figure out why those're not doing their job, they had apparently no intention of getting out of there in a hurry so neither would rerouting power to engines (and the crew do usually mention it when they do stuff like that), so what did they have to lose? They either manage to take out the BoP so automatic win or they don't and still have to try the technobabble solution but have lost nothing by trying the traditional way.

Ironic since DS9 demonstrates this:
DS9 The Jem Hadar shows the USS Odyssey getting hammered by three Attack Ships which are able to penetrate the shields. The captain's response is to divert power from shields to weapons so they can do more damage. The Odyssey was destroyed in 2370 while the E-D went down in 2371.
Even then, the Odyssey is able to put up a much better fight than the poor old E-D and may have held out longer without the kamikaze.

That said, a single BOP was able to delay 10 Dominion Attack Ships off-screen in DS9: Once More Unto the Breach
This episode also shows a bit more creative use of the cloak with Martok raiding Dominion facilities behind enemy lines under cloak.
I think DS9 Rules of Engagement also shows a BOP and Cruiser being able to effectively tag team the Defiant to a stand-still. The cruiser you might get away with but a BOP should have no chance against the Defiant.

Overall, Picard openly mocks the idea of the BOP in Generations being able to take on the E-D. However, it would appear the BOPs are considerably more formidable than they appear.
The E-D really should have struck out harder than it did but it is possible the BOP would be able to withstand even the E-D going all out.

PREDATOR490 wrote: Overall, Picard openly mocks the idea of the BOP in Generations being able to take on the E-D. However, it would appear the BOPs are considerably more formidable than they appear.
The E-D really should have struck out harder than it did but it is possible the BOP would be able to withstand even the E-D going all out.

Well all things being equal, the BOP openly mocks the idea of the BOP being able to take on the E-D without some special case helping them in Generations. Probably fair for Picard to do so if they're doing it themselves as far as (possibly) misconstrued ship capabilities are concerned.

PREDATOR490 wrote:I think DS9 Rules of Engagement also shows a BOP and Cruiser being able to effectively tag team the Defiant to a stand-still. The cruiser you might get away with but a BOP should have no chance against the Defiant.

Those two were running a figure-of-eight track to hit the Defiant and the convoy it was meant to be escorting in sequence. Since they'd decoyed Defiant away from the convoy they were able to launch their attacks from a flank and force her to choose between turning to engage and continuing back towards the convoy. While a BoP certainly isn't tough enough to survive long against Defiant, they are tough enough that a battlecruiser could do a lot of damage to merchant ships in the time it took to engage, destroy, and resume course.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:TMP: The Ent survived a direct hit from V'Ger, the same thing that 1 shot three klingon cruisers and an entire space station.

The Klingon ships, nor Epsilon IX were not "1-shoted". At 2:22 the Klingons realize their torpedoes did jack shit and take evasive action. At 3:26 Epsilon IX intercepts the Klingon's message and with the ship rocking it looks like they are taking multiple hits. When they get taken out they are down to two cruisers, and facing away from V'Ger (I would assume in retreat) - that's when the final two cruisers get taken out by single shots.

During Epsilon IX's destruction you see multiple V'ger weapons raining down on the station (not in the video I know).

Skylon wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:TMP: The Ent survived a direct hit from V'Ger, the same thing that 1 shot three klingon cruisers and an entire space station.

The Klingon ships, nor Epsilon IX were not "1-shoted".

eh?

We see exactly one shot hit the Klingon ships and it is destroyed (or "Patterned"). Same for Epsilon 9. I only brought it up as I'd just watched the film. It fires once at each thing, with the Enterprise being the only thing able to withstand a hit.

Why were the klingons shaking? I dunno, over-running their engines trying to get away? It's a split screen, you can see the sensor-readout next to it - it's not firing anything.

IMO the Excelsior didn't perform poorly in ST6. I haven't read the novelisation, but if I remember the film correctly the Excelsior only took one photon torpedo by the BOP before Chang switched his attention back to the E-A. When the flash from the torpedo strike clears, you can see that the Excelsior's hull was completely undamaged. Contrast this to the E-A, where the torpedoes were able to cause damage to the hull even through the shielding.

Also, if I remember correctly Scotty commented at one point that the BOP was "packing quite a wallop," hinting that it may have been using more powerful weapons than usual.

Um-the very scene where the torpedo hits NCC-2000 shows the very first hit she took caused internal damage sufficient to require them to close pressure doors when the Big E shook off the first two torpedo hits with nothing more than the ship shaking a bit.