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The E-D was able to cause damage to 20% of the Borg vessel with 3 shots. I agree that at this point the odds were still in the Borg's favour because the E-D's shields were down, but they only ended up in that position because of Picard's slow and measured response.

The Romulans are more aggressive than the Federation. In a first encounter, I doubt they would take their sweet time in responding like the E-D did. If anything they would be the ones firing first, especially if the Borg ship had invaded their territory. We don't what size the Borg ship was from "the Neutral Zone." IMO in a first encounter a fully shielded Romulan warbird that immediately went on the offensive would definitely take out a smaller ship like a sphere, and could conceivably go toe-to-toe with a cube. If the first encounter involved 2-3 warbirds I'd say the Romulans would win for sure, even against a cube. Although they wouldn't know that the Borg adapt to weapons over time, I'd doubt it'd matter because they would have destroyed the Borg cube before it had the chance to do so. They wouldn't have stopped their attack and called a meeting after only firing 3 shots!

It would be a similar scenario to what would happen if Q-Who involved both the E-D and the USS Galaxy, and both ships decided to fire everything they had right off the bat. Would be Borg be able to survive the onslaught before adapting? I doubt it.

Well keep in mind that there's a difference between what WE consider "firing everything" and what they do in ST. I've often seen "Fire all Phasers" to mean a few shots off the front strip and that's it. Had the E-D actually gone all out like they did in Best of Both Worlds (Every single phaser bank with a clear shot firing as fast as it can, and the forward torpedo launcher firing full spreads), I think that would take out a cube all by itself if they can't adapt fast enough.

I rather think that was his point. When the Federation says they're going all out, they actually don't, usually. The Romulans are a hell of a lot more likely to really go whole hog, at which point it's a bad day to be a lone Borg cube.

Ya, that was what I was aiming at. And there is a reason why I brought it up.

IMO it's more likely that the Borg attacked the Romulans after "the Neutral Zone" than simply disappearing for no reason. I mean they were kinda attacking already seeing as they were destroying outposts left and right. If the Romulans were able to stop the Borg with only a couple of warbirds at most, it could explain Picard's complacency in Q-Who. Even if he knew about the encounter, he may have assumed that the E-D would be able to do the same if necessary. And he would be right - all he was missing was the key piece of info that the Borg were able to adapt over time. The Romulans wouldn't have known if they had destroyed the ship before it could adapt, and Gunian might not have known either. And Q certainly wasn't telling. So he assumed that if the Borg started attacking again, he'd just blow more holes in the hull. The whole episode was about Picard being more concerned with proving humanity's superiority to Q than being prudent by taking precautions and listening to advice, and that bit him in the ass big time.

In order to destroy the Cube, unless they had Picard's psychic link to find the weak spot like in First Contact. The ENT-D would have to either destroy all 6 surfaces of the Cube. Or blast all the way down to the Cube's core. A full size cube has beam weapons and launchers on all 6 surfaces. And all of which would be firing at the ENT-D. The same would be the case in a Romulan battle unless the cube was just stupid enough to sit there and let itself be bombarded without returning fire.

Also the visuals in Q Who do not match the dialog that the Borg sustained damage to 20% of their vessel. In fact the visuals do not depict even 20% damage to the surface, much less the entire ship.

Another explanation for what happened to the Borg Cube in the Neutral Zone, is if you believe Dark Frontier that the Borg were sending cubes to that region of space for a least a decade prior to the events of "The Neutral Zone" that the Borg were investigating the area and examining the species of the region for years and that the attacks on the Romulan colonies were just the next step in their "information gathering" process. The cubes returned to the collective to report the information. And then the collective decided on whether to attack in force.

And since BOBW attacking in force was only a single cube. The Borg must have had some believe that based on it's encounter with the Ent-D and any other information gathered, that a single cube would be sufficient to break through the Federation defenses and assimilate Earth. A conclusion they would be unlikely to reach if a single Galaxy class ship had any chance of successfully destroying a cube. It would be a huge leap to say "that single ship could have destroyed our cube, but we adapted. Therefore we can now take down their entire fleet with only one ship!"

Much of the damage could have been in the interior of the ship and not noticeable. There have been plenty of times in the series where the E-D has sustained heavy damage without the damage being visible to the viewer, so I don't see why that shouldn't apply to the Borg.

And though the Cube has weapons on all 6 surfaces, that means nothing if the E-D is able to stay on the damaged side. In FC the Borg made no attempt to rotate their ship so that the "weak point" would no longer be in the line of fire, despite that being the obvious response.

And unless I'm greatly mistaken, the Borg are able to communicate with each other in real time throughout pretty much the whole Galaxy. Seven's love interest from "Unimatrix Zero" was in the Beta Quadrant, I believe. I doubt the Borg ship (we don't know if its a cube, but it's likely bigger than a scout given that it destroyed the outposts) had to fly back to the delta quadrant to download its info.

Post TNG episodes managed to screw the continuity up quite well. Before hand it was heavily implied that the Borg were completely nomadic - they lived from birth to death inside their ships, and attacked other species for their technology/resources in order to sustain themselves. Remember that Picard's assimilation was an exception and not the rule. And it was implied Q's actions altered the timeline, at least according to Guinan:

GUINAN: Q set a series of events into motion, bringing contact with the Borg much sooner than it should have come. Now, perhaps when you're ready, it might be possible to establish a relationship with them. But for now, for right now, you're just raw material to them. Since they are aware of your existence-
PICARD: They will be coming.

Again, there isn't any canon explanation for what happened to the Borg ship (outside-universe the Borg were supposed to have been featured in the next episode but the writer's strike prevented that). So it boils down to what you think is more likely: that the Borg sent a ship powerful enough to destroy a bunch of military outposts and have it carve a path of destruction through the Neutral Zone, only to have it turn around and leave? Or that it attacked the Romulans and being more aggressive, they managed to it put it down pretty fast? Or, it could be that after Q-Who it turned around and came back, which could explain why there were assimilated Klingons/Humans in the Delta quadrant despite the cube from BOBW being destroyed.

Maybe I should put up a poll lol

Borgholio wrote:Well keep in mind that there's a difference between what WE consider "firing everything" and what they do in ST. I've often seen "Fire all Phasers" to mean a few shots off the front strip and that's it. Had the E-D actually gone all out like they did in Best of Both Worlds (Every single phaser bank with a clear shot firing as fast as it can, and the forward torpedo launcher firing full spreads), I think that would take out a cube all by itself if they can't adapt fast enough.

I think the results of Wolf 359 shows this is not the case. The only mission there was warheads on foreheads and if the Feds were going to go all out that's where it would have happened. I don't think there were any Galaxy class vessel at the battle but they were. It THAT more more powerful than the other similarsized Fed ships like the Nebulas. One would certainly be less powerful than the dozens of ships that perished.

The Feds in a First Contact were not holding back either.

No there was a clear difference between Wolf 359 and the battle of Sector 001. We clearly see in the DS9 pilot episode that the Fed ships at Wolf 359 attacked the cube in waves of 2 or 3 ships at a time, and they only shot from the main front phaser bank. So the combined firepower of each single wave was less than that of a Galaxy-class full armament. In First Contact, they "kinda" learned from their mistakes, and attacked as one big swarm instead of several small waves, and it DID have an impact. The Borg cube was suffering heavy damage, but was still functional. The same problem with only firing part of their weapons array still was visible however. You don't see a single Fed ship firing more than one weapon at a time. Even in the final assault where all the ships are to focus fire on a weak point, they only fire one phaser at a time, or a few torpedoes a time. They should be hitting it with everything they have, but they don't.

Borgholio wrote:No there was a clear difference between Wolf 359 and the battle of Sector 001. We clearly see in the DS9 pilot episode that the Fed ships at Wolf 359 attacked the cube in waves of 2 or 3 ships at a time, and they only shot from the main front phaser bank. So the combined firepower of each single wave was less than that of a Galaxy-class full armament. In First Contact, they "kinda" learned from their mistakes, and attacked as one big swarm instead of several small waves, and it DID have an impact. The Borg cube was suffering heavy damage, but was still functional. The same problem with only firing part of their weapons array still was visible however. You don't see a single Fed ship firing more than one weapon at a time. Even in the final assault where all the ships are to focus fire on a weak point, they only fire one phaser at a time, or a few torpedoes a time. They should be hitting it with everything they have, but they don't.

Possibly a question of reactor output. Perhaps they physically can't fire every weapon facing a target at once.

On the other hand, I clearly remember from DS9: "Sacrifice of Angels" a shot of a GCS crossing the T on a Galor-class and firing two beams at once from the same dorsal saucer phaser strip.

Possibly a question of reactor output. Perhaps they physically can't fire every weapon facing a target at once.

We see the E-D do it several times. You'd think the Sovereign (designed as a warship) could do it.

On the other hand, I clearly remember from DS9: "Sacrifice of Angels" a shot of a GCS crossing the T on a Galor-class and firing two beams at once from the same dorsal saucer phaser strip.

Yeah I noticed that too. First time I saw that I thought, "Huh...didn't know they could do that. Neat."

Well, from what we saw in both Wolf 359 and in the Battle of Sector 001 was some point long after the battle, where they were expending many of their ships, and logically many of their photon and quantum torpedoes in the initial battle. The Enterprise freshly arrived at Earth seemed to give a bigger salvo than the rest of the fleet, which was also rather disorganized due to the death of the admiral.

I'm actually kind of surprised that Picard's tactic worked. In BOBW the Borg Cube was shown to be able to rotate on it's axis very quickly. One would think that the moment the Borg saw the fleet concentrating their attack on a particular point they would simply rotate that side out of the line of fire. Perhaps the Borg Cube's propulsion system had been damaged?

And now that I think about it, why do the Borg usually keep the same side facing their opponents? If anything, Borg ships should be capable of being very difficult targets to hit, despite their size. Imagine if in addition to their adaptation and regenerative capabilities the Borg Cubes attacked while randomly tumbling around like dice. It shouldn't be a problem for the Cube due to its Omni-directional design, but it would make it very difficult, if not impossible, for fleets to line up and focus their weapons on one point like they did in First Contact.

It's because for all their technological superiority, the Borg are fucking clueless when it comes to actual combat tactics. Seriously, their idea of ground tactics is to walk slowly towards the enemy as a skirmish line of friggin' zombies that, if Starfleet wasn't also fucking clueless, they could tear to pieces in seconds with something as readily available as an overloaded phaser.

StarSword wrote:It's because for all their technological superiority, the Borg are fucking clueless when it comes to actual combat tactics. Seriously, their idea of ground tactics is to walk slowly towards the enemy as a skirmish line of friggin' zombies that, if Starfleet wasn't also fucking clueless, they could tear to pieces in seconds with something as readily available as an overloaded phaser.

*cough* Machine gun *cough*

Tribble wrote:And now that I think about it, why do the Borg usually keep the same side facing their opponents? If anything, Borg ships should be capable of being very difficult targets to hit, despite their size. Imagine if in addition to their adaptation and regenerative capabilities the Borg Cubes attacked while randomly tumbling around like dice. It shouldn't be a problem for the Cube due to its Omni-directional design, but it would make it very difficult, if not impossible, for fleets to line up and focus their weapons on one point like they did in First Contact.

You'll notice, after the events of First Contact, during the Borg-Species 8472 war, that the Borg did exactly that.

Borgholio wrote:

StarSword wrote:It's because for all their technological superiority, the Borg are fucking clueless when it comes to actual combat tactics. Seriously, their idea of ground tactics is to walk slowly towards the enemy as a skirmish line of friggin' zombies that, if Starfleet wasn't also fucking clueless, they could tear to pieces in seconds with something as readily available as an overloaded phaser.

*cough* Machine gun *cough*

I'm just talking about stuff they've got lying around and wouldn't need to program a replicator pattern for.

FaxModem1 wrote:

Tribble wrote:And now that I think about it, why do the Borg usually keep the same side facing their opponents? If anything, Borg ships should be capable of being very difficult targets to hit, despite their size. Imagine if in addition to their adaptation and regenerative capabilities the Borg Cubes attacked while randomly tumbling around like dice. It shouldn't be a problem for the Cube due to its Omni-directional design, but it would make it very difficult, if not impossible, for fleets to line up and focus their weapons on one point like they did in First Contact.

You'll notice, after the events of First Contact, during the Borg-Species 8472 war, that the Borg did exactly that.

If I remember correctly, after the E-D's unsuccessful attack, the Borg Cube rotates around very quickly given its size and flies off. Far faster than in any later appearance at any rate. The ships in Voyager do rotate a bit from time to time, but nearly as much nor as quickly. If the Borg used that speed of rotation and randomised it during battle the results would be quite nasty, especially if they could also rotate in other directions as well. I'm trying to find a link to the opening scene in BOBW part 2...

Out of universe explanation is that a Borg cube randomly rolling around would probably be pretty difficult to pull off on-screen without it coming across as silly.

Tribble wrote:I'm actually kind of surprised that Picard's tactic worked. In BOBW the Borg Cube was shown to be able to rotate on it's axis very quickly. One would think that the moment the Borg saw the fleet concentrating their attack on a particular point they would simply rotate that side out of the line of fire. Perhaps the Borg Cube's propulsion system had been damaged?

they do it even faster in Voyager:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPDs0dq0LOo

27 seconds in (you may need to adjust quality to 360p, 480 didn't work for me)


The only times I recall them doing it in TBOBW was here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJAEWuS6bHw
6 minutes 15 seconds in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2xa0BLtvWw
12 minutes 5 seconds in



Voyager's one seems to me a lot faster, and it was done at warp.

Actually, maybe that's why? At warp, they have less mass (at least federation ships do) - maybe that made it easier to turn ?

Ah, I forgot about the first half of that scene from Voyager, I just remembered the Cube sacrificing itself. It's moving at about the same speed (perhaps a bit faster) as the cube in the scene from BOBW part 2 right after the E-D tries and fails with the deflector dish attack. Alas, the clips you have don't include that brief scene but it appears that the Cube can do it whether or not it's at warp.

What do you think the effectiveness of that tactic would be against the Federation? Especially if it kept the rotation random? Do you think it could it rotate up and down as well as side to side? Would it be able to do that and fire from more than one side at a time?

There is no scene with it turning after the Enterprise fires and fails.

The ship stands absolutely still whilst being fired at The ship turns really, really slowly whilst it's being hit. There are no further external shots in the teaser.

The teaser of the episode then ends with Locutus saying "Resistance is hopeless... Number One.". Then the intro starts. Once the main body of the episode starts, The Enterprise is by itself in space, with Riker doing a captains log saying the borg have resumed course to earth.

The only two points you see the Borg ship turning around are the ones I've linked. It may turn very slightly as it's coming out of the Nebula but nothing of consequence.

Voyager's one is the fastest by (I'd guess) at least two-three times the speed shown in TBOBW.



As a tactic, if they could fire at the speed they did in the clip I gave, both Wolf 359 and Sector 001 should have been over in under 5 minutes.

Here's every single frame from The Best of Both Worlds that contains the Borg Ship in whole or in part, including computer readouts.

Unless I'm missing something, only the two i originally highlighted could be described as "turning" and they're not as fast as the one in Voyager.

I concede the point. I haven't seen BOBW or Scorpion in awhile, my memory's getting rusty. Thanks for the clips!

At the very least we know from Scorpion that the Borg Cube can rotate at a high rate of speed and fire while at warp. From 1:54 - 1:55 in your last clip, the Borg cube appears to execute around a 25-45 degree turn in around a second. Not the same rate as Voyager, but IMO it's still fast enough to pose a challenge.

Mind you, this is the same group of idiots who couldn't figure out that by just sending one more cube they'd win, so I suppose I can't expect much.

On a related note, what exactly were the Borg planning to do if the had successfully reached Earth? There's what, maybe 100,000 drones up against billions of people? Would they be launching a ground invasion? Would they be trying to beam people up one by one? Or would they be ripping cities out of the ground like what happened in the Neutral Zone and J-25? I mean, sure, a Cube is pretty large by spaceship standards, but its manpower and resources are much more limited compared to the capital world of the federation. Or maybe their goal was to lay that transwarp conduit seen in the final episode of Voyager, in the expectation that more ships would come later? I don't think they we're planning on time-travel the whole time, as Darth Wong points out the Queen was probably just trying to avoid getting fried by the Enterprise.