StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Batman, warning, sense of silliness failure- you're dropping a sensible and reasonable comment into an MST3K moment, here. Contextually, being right is inappropriate.

On the other hand, what the hell. Personally I'd like to see the Force used more for C4ISR (all right, C3ISR then, let the droids do the other bit)- for, for want of a better word, scrying, sensing of enemy intent- a behind the lines battle of wits, with occasional espionage and special forces work. In other words keep them out of the front line.

Direct violence- if there was a sensible point to the OP, it comes close to the point made by, well, someone who isn't here any more, that Hollywood wildly underestimates real world weapons and the mess they make; and much more so for futuristic weapons which should be a damn sight worse but somehow never look that way on screen.

Say, for instance, our jedi- shifty guy in robes, yes?- gets mistaken for that kind of target and has a JDAM dropped on his head. (The newer ones have laser guidance as a backup mode- they really can see, or home in, anyway- close enough for jazz.)

Lightsaber parrying really isn't going to do him a damned bit of good, if the fusing doesn't get him waving a bar of plasma through a block of high explosive will. Bang, splat. Precog? All right, now you know, but how fast can you run? Absorb energy- not many that are that good. Telekinesis- small black dot moving at barely subsonic speed; all right, may be practical. PK still upwards of 85%, I'd reckon, from a simple routine act of modern war.

Jedi off the front lines. Special forces, intel, analysis, spywork.

Haruhi wrote:The sources are the movies: the blasters are slow enough to be visible.

In some examples yes they are ridiculously slow, but not in others. Funny thing is the 'speed' of the blaster really depends on the scene in question. In scenes where the ranges are considerably longer (Battle of Hoth and TESB, or the Battel of Geonosis in AOTC) you actually get considerably faster shots (as fast as or faster than bullets.) Heck this is also true of fighter and capital ship guns.. TLS can literally vary from metres per second (firing on stuff just skimming over the hull like in TESB and ROTJ) to thousands of km/s or more (ion cannon shot in TESB. Hilariously there the speed is different from scene to scene with that shot.)

Alot of this stuff is better analyzed by frame by frame, rather than subjective, gut-instinct shit.

also you wouldn't bother using a lightsaber to deflect a shotgun blast, you'd probably use telekinesis (either some sort of force wall as described in the AOTC novelization and seen whenever Jedi shove multiple droids through the air simultaneosuly or telekinetically shift the aim of the barrel - either of which is faster and far less effort-intensive than moving a human body.)

For the shotgun blast to the chest, a better option would be using the vaunted precog to avoid getting fired at in the first place.

Connor MacLeod wrote:In some examples yes they are ridiculously slow, but not in others.

I agree. Look here:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/ ... ter-speed/

Many of you agree that the Jedi are not designed for front line.

Because they're NOT, they're designed for the Silver Screen. They have to be visually interesting, while not being so powerful as to be borring. That's the same reason why Blasters have a visible bolt-SO YOU CAN SEE THEM. It's a ray-gun in visual science fiction, of course it's going to move slower than a bullet in most scenes! Most film is shot at 24 frames per second, and to avoid the blasters turning into a smear or otherwise being a visual mess, they need to be slower than they might otherwise be in a lot of close-quarters firefights like on the Death Star. It's the same way that Hollywood lies to you about the ability of things to explode in large red-orange fireballs, because they look prettier and are less hard on the cameras than actual bombs and high explosives.

This doesn't mean that your suggestions hold merit however. Poor formatting and wank-tastic descriptions of wonder weapons and armor for a 'Jedi in Call of Duty' game aren't actually interesting or appropriate.

We already SEEN Jedi formatted for an army role.

Either they act as generals where their former training roll over in the form of leadership, diplomatic bureaucracy with other Republican bureaucracies/officers and their intelligence helps in the planning, they act as starfighter commanders where their precog and superlative skills give them an edge or they act as commandos, as seen in virtually every Jedi novel from TPM to NJO.

The real difference is that the new Jedi uniform exhibited by Luke and Anakin Skywalker probably needs more body armour, along the lines of Clone Wars Obiwan Kenobi.


Of course, the REAL question is how Jedi training actually prepares them for a role in any military. That might be a topic worth discussing.......

On that note: Jedi training doesn't seem to prepare them for any kind of military role other than lone reconnaissance/intelligence gathering. Reasoning: they are trained to operate primarily in solo or groups of two. While this works great for the aforementioned it is detrimental for even squad size actions as they would be getting in each others way.

Even when acting as Generals they were loose cannons resorting to taking care of things themselves rather than delegating (see Obi-wan's ride on the lizard up the cliff). Contrarily, Yoda, was seen seemingly actually using aides (wookies) so that their battle lines were not a total clusterfuck.

Jedi need to use lightsabers because they can't TK blaster bolts, whereas low-mass projectiles (like modern small arms projectiles) would be trivially easy for them to deflect with TK.
Granted, they'd likely only be able to deflect them off course, and be unable to reflect bullets at the shooter, but they'd be able to protect themselves even more easily, like Obi-Wan did in the Clone Wars short against Durge's weaponry.

Also, blaster bolt velocity varies vastly. Geonosis and Kashyyk show them moving at what amounts to hypervelocity.


Anyway, stupid is as stupid does. Some idiots are incapable of learning when someone who knows better than them attempts to educate them.
Still, here's a video of a Thompson SMG firing tracer ammo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJFiVslxMm4

ZOMG BLASTER!

Don't be silly. That can't possibly be a blaster. It's totally the wrong shade of green.

The .45 ACP round (which the Thompson fires) is a much lower muzzle velocity than, say, an AR-15/M16. That isn't to say that blaster bolts can't be faster than a rifle, of course. Just that a Thompson SMG isn't an outstanding example of how fast bullets can go. Rifles propel their projectile substantially faster.

AR-15 with tracer rounds. As a comparison for a faster round. Muzzle velocities can vary between guns substantially. This isn't an argument for or against Jedi being able to deal with them, just an example of a round that's on the fast end of things.

Haruhi wrote:Many of you agree that the Jedi are not designed for front line.

How is this a surprise? AOTC made it pretty clear the Jedi do not consider themselves to be warriors of any kind, they are peacekeepers. You wouldn't send out police officers into a military situation, either.

That Jedi have any utility on a battlefield isn't becaues they have military training, its because they have magic powers.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Haruhi wrote:Many of you agree that the Jedi are not designed for front line.

How is this a surprise? AOTC made it pretty clear the Jedi do not consider themselves to be warriors of any kind, they are peacekeepers. You wouldn't send out police officers into a military situation, either.

That Jedi have any utility on a battlefield isn't becaues they have military training, its because they have magic powers.

I would even go so far as to say that they would just get people killed if they were in charge in a combat situation. They simply are not trained for a military environment.

I thought putting the Jedi in as Generals was a deliberate move by Palpatine to get many of them killed in situations they aren't good in?

Even if that's never stated it's the reason that most seems to fit to me.

Makes a fair bit of sense actually. If you use the EU, it has been ~900 or so years since the Jedi last were Generals, so they really have been magic-powered Cops for a long time.

(And even discounting the EU, you have the Republic 'having no major war for 1,000 years' too)

and again if we include the EU the Sith have been undermining the republic for about the same amount of time 1000 give or take a few decades, so it wouldn't be so implausible that people working for the sith (knowingly or unknowingly) have made it so that the jedi where the best possible military leaders for a republic army.

Best possible? I disagree. A police sergeant would make a better leader if for no other reason than he knows how to delegate. If your job is to command you do not go running in lightsaber swinging, or actually piloting a star fighter. You sit back and make the strategic command decisions. Your job is not to fight, it is to think and send others to fight.

There is a reason that Chess is called the game of kings. You have to think ahead and you must have a plan. You do not get in the dirt yourself.

Zwinmar wrote:Best possible? I disagree. A police sergeant would make a better leader if for no other reason than he knows how to delegate. If your job is to command you do not go running in lightsaber swinging, or actually piloting a star fighter. You sit back and make the strategic command decisions. Your job is not to fight, it is to think and send others to fight.

There is a reason that Chess is called the game of kings. You have to think ahead and you must have a plan. You do not get in the dirt yourself.

I meant best possible avaible to the Galactic Republic of course, if anything the prequels showed that Old Republic was deeply flawed and disfuntional, for all we know there were generals and commanders in the planetary or sectorial forces(those imperials leaders had to come from somewhere) but due to what ever reasons they weren't avaible to the republic until the very end of the Clone Wars (well obviously the true reason being that Sidious didn't want commanders that could question Order 66, but there was probably other "official" reason for it).

Connor MacLeod wrote: AOTC made it pretty clear the Jedi do not consider themselves to be warriors of any kind, they are peacekeepers. You wouldn't send out police officers into a military situation, either..

In some eras the Jedi involved in wars.

I think the Jedi would have to train two types of Jedi: Jedi peacekeepers and Jedi warriors. The Jedi warriors would have military training, would go in groups of five or more and would have a particularly strong psyche to avoid falling into the dark side, as they engage in war would be something next to the dark side. One might object that wars are already soldiers, but the soldiers are not usually Force users. Better than normal soldiers are soldiers who can use the Force.

Jedi soldiers are not necessarily better than a 'normal' soldier for the simple aspect that they if they rely on their force power they will have a hard time improvising, adapting, and overcoming. Potentially, sure, but the from what I've seen their way is the only way which means they have a major flaw. If one 'knows' they are superior to others they will underestimate their opponent and end up dead.

Ultimately, using the Jedi as soldiers fails because they are suped-up infantry, and force powers and a lightsaber will not help you against blanket artillery fire or carpet bombing (never mind blasting the place from orbit with a gigaton-range turbolaser).

Lord Revan wrote:and again if we include the EU the Sith have been undermining the republic for about the same amount of time 1000 give or take a few decades, so it wouldn't be so implausible that people working for the sith (knowingly or unknowingly) have made it so that the jedi where the best possible military leaders for a republic army.

I think this is better explained by the events of AotC; Sidious and Dooku set up the Jedi Order by making out the check to the Kaminoan cloners in the name of the Jedi. The clones were thus obliged to obey the Jedi no matter how unsuited the Jedi were to military matters. The Jedi fell for it because masters such as Mace Windu still had a certain level of arrogance that, because they defeated the Sith in the past, they were still competent in the present-- and in fact, did that job decently enough against the CIS. But at the same time, this kept them distracted from Palpatine's political schemes until they were too late to stop him.

Now, this doesn't mean Jedi from all time periods are as unsuited to war as the Clone Wars era order. The Jedi from the classical period of the Sith Civilization were far more militarized by necessity. These are the people who nuked the shit out of Yavin 4 just to be absolutely certain Exar Kun couldn't leave the surface alive. Likewise the New Jedi Order was founded by a former Rebel, Luke Skywalker, and had several others as his initial students such as Corran Horn and Kyle Katarn; and they were a lot better prepared for war when the Yuhzaan Vong came onto the scene, although to my understanding they got themselves into more of a special forces role than pretending to be generals (the New Republic had plenty of trained professionals already in charge of those positions).

Though the OP is still hilarious in how ignorant s/he is about actual warfare compared to video games. Weapons weapons weapons armor weapons!

Ghetto Edit: whoops, just checked Wookiepedia and I realized I got that wrong about Exar Kun (was wondering why there were still temples there). Turns out the old Jedi had a special force technique just for these situations. Still, the sentiment is the same: why bother fighting him in a lightsaber duel when they could fuck his shit from the safety of orbit?

Agreed there, what I never understood comes down to this: If a magic user is at the bottom of a gravity well and your at the top why the fuck go down there and give him a chance? Just turn an asteroid into a mass driver projectile.

I'm talking about those situations were you don't need to keep whatever is at bottom of said gravity well.

Someone said it best: The infantry is the queen of battle and artillery the king, and we all know what the king does to the queen.

Of course, from what I remember they(clones/droids/imps) used Napoleonic/idiotic tactics, namely get on line and move. Fuck that! In that situation I want a machine gun and arty dropping air bursts. Fire and Maneuver all the way.

Zwinmar wrote:Jedi soldiers are not necessarily better than a 'normal' soldier for the simple aspect that they if they rely on their force power they will have a hard time improvising, adapting, and overcoming. Potentially, sure, but the from what I've seen their way is the only way which means they have a major flaw. If one 'knows' they are superior to others they will underestimate their opponent and end up dead.

So the Jedi have to be trained to avoid being arrogant.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Ultimately, using the Jedi as soldiers fails because they are suped-up infantry, and force powers and a lightsaber will not help you against blanket artillery fire or carpet bombing (never mind blasting the place from orbit with a gigaton-range turbolaser).

The Force does help against blanket artillery fire or carpet bombing. There are improvements of the original post, psychokinesis, etc.

Formless wrote:Though the OP is still hilarious in how ignorant s/he is about actual warfare compared to video games. Weapons weapons weapons armor weapons!

So what you propose?

Haruhi wrote:

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Ultimately, using the Jedi as soldiers fails because they are suped-up infantry, and force powers and a lightsaber will not help you against blanket artillery fire or carpet bombing (never mind blasting the place from orbit with a gigaton-range turbolaser).

The Force does help against blanket artillery fire or carpet bombing. There are improvements of the original post, psychokinesis, etc.

Oh come on, a Jedi is going to be able to psychokinetically protect himself from the dozens or hundreds or thousands of incoming shells or rockets, and then protect himself from all the fragments. Bullshit. And that assumes they are using equivalents to modern weapons rather than the direct-fire energy weapons seen in AOTC, which you can't stop with the Force, for the same reason they can't use the Force to stop blaster bolts.

And you didn't address the "blast the place from orbit" plan. Hell, please tell me how a Jedi will use the Force to protect himself if the other side start using nuclear rounds?