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DaveJB wrote:Generations took a lot of flack over the Duras Sisters appearing without their backstory being adequately explained...

i guess that's a double edged sword, in that what sort of person goes to a star trek movie other than star trek fans, and yet they want to make it open to new fans and non-trek people.

IIRC, there was also a line of dialogue cut involvingWorf contacting the High Council about the Duras sisters and receiving intel in turn.

aussiemuscle308 wrote:i guess that's a double edged sword, in that what sort of person goes to a star trek movie other than star trek fans, and yet they want to make it open to new fans and non-trek people.

I think the actual problem with the Duras Sisters was just that they weren't especially good villains to begin with. Khan and the Borg both had backstories that managed to be concise while still making them credible threats - Khan was a genetically engineered superman from the 20th Century who nearly killed Kirk and took control of the Enterprise, while the Borg are a bunch of monstrous cyborgs who transformed Picard and nearly destroyed the Federation - but the Durases were just two chicks who Worf once killed the brother of, after which they tried to overthrow the Klingon Empire and failed miserably, before making two further appearances (one on TNG and one on DS9) where they did nothing of any real importance. Not only is it a fairly convoluted backstory, it doesn't even make them seem particularly dangerous.

DaveJB wrote: I think the actual problem with the Duras Sisters was just that they weren't especially good villains to begin with.

Which is probably why they weren't the main villains. They essentially served as Soran's goons. It's a double edged sword. If he is going to have goons, do you want established characters or new ones? I thought the audience got enough information about them to keep moving (when Soran mentions they are out to "re-conquer" the Klingon Empire).

Was the decision to use some Klingons as villains a decision of Moore and Braga or executive? I would not be surprised either way because for one thing, Moore liked writing Klingons but they were also a recognizable alien for a Star Trek film.

It also probably helped that they got to reuse all the footage of the bird of prey from Star Trek III to VI.

My gawd... this movie is fucking horrible.

Nemesis was always destined to fail. It sought to emulate TWOK, but instead ripped it off without understanding the fundamentals.

TWOK was about taking a well known and good villian from the original series and creating a conflict on the big screen. In actuality, First Contact emulated TWOK. FC took the same concept with the Borg and brought them to the big screen. A proper mix of action for one hell of a conflict.

Another interesting piece of trivia, TWOK and FC were both the second films in their respective series movie era.

Nemesis tried to copy TWOK when they should have been emulating its core ideas.

And what villians are we left with that would be credible for TNG? Sela is known to the fans for sure, but less well known to everyone else. But she would be a perfect candidate for the Romulan Empire. Then the B4 plot. They could have just outright made it Lore. Say Lore was activated for research and he escapes. Lore is Data's Nemesis. It could have been perfect. Data is recognizeable. An android clone that has absolutely no morality could have made for an interesting movie.

Alyeska wrote: Lore is Data's Nemesis.

Ah, i see where you're going...

aussiemuscle308 wrote:

Alyeska wrote: Lore is Data's Nemesis.

Ah, i see where you're going...

And what is better from what we've seen on the TNG Series Sela obviously looked at Picard as her nemesis.....it just fits so well it makes you sigh that they couldn't have made use of that!

The other thing about Nemesis that always bugged me is that we were promised a focus on the Romulans and they ended up being overshadowing by the Remans.

The problem is one I've kvetched about before: The Romulans predate the Klingons by several episodes and are thus the franchise's oldest antagonist. But they've always gotten the short end of the stick and their culture remains the least explored of the major powers.

Granted, Remus had been established back in TOS. But it would have been better if the Remans had been established earlier, especially given their role as shock troops in the Dominion War (which I always thought was a nice tie to DS9).

I said all of the last four posts in my first one. But yeah, Sela, Lore with the Romulans at the forefront should have been the movie.

Yeah, I did a writeup of a version with Sela as the villain with Spock and the reunification movement and shit. I thought it was pretty rad.

I recommend viewing these if you haven't already:
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Worth a few laughs if nothing else Though I wouldn't watch them at work if I were you