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Ralin wrote:

Arawn Fenn wrote:The EU says outright that Force lightning can kill ( and I'm referring to novels, though video games have often demonstrated this ), but that's why you excluded the EU, isn't it?

To be fair, Havok has made it pretty clear he hates the EU and tries to ignore it as much as possible.

Thank you for noticing.

And I don't just dismiss the EU out of hand, but what you just posted is a prime example of why I do.
The movies show that FL really isn't that lethal, even when used by the most powerful Sith Lord yet.
Now the EU comes along and shows far less powerful force user crisping people with one shot.

As I have always said, it is the EU's job to conform to the movie, not the movie's job to be explained so the EU
makes sense.

Wow thanks guys. I've gone and read some more stuff and thanks to what you guys have said I understand a bit better now.

So thanks everyone

The whole question of FL lethality is a bit of a red herring in this case, I think.

It's not like there's no other ways Palpy could have killed Vader.

Hasn't there even been some implication that Vader's suit is Force-powered (by Palpy) to some extent? That would perfectly explain Vader dying shortly after Palpy did...

Darth Tedious wrote:The whole question of FL lethality is a bit of a red herring in this case, I think.

It's not like there's no other ways Palpy could have killed Vader.

Hasn't there even been some implication that Vader's suit is Force-powered (by Palpy) to some extent? That would perfectly explain Vader dying shortly after Palpy did...

while force powered technology exists in EU this is the first time I've ever heard of Vader's suit being a piece of such technology, all accounts I've heard it's simply normal medtech.

I think the question with the lethality of force lightning is whether you can dependably form a circuit(accidentally or otherwise) that can pump the rather minor amounts of current needed to kill a man through the heart or other major organ. The force lightning isn't exactly aimed, and all uses of electricity on the human body have to be carefully set up and directed for them to behave as desired, as when you get down to it, material wise, the human body is an outrageous hodgepodge of circuitry as far as directing current is concerned. If even the (relatively) massive amount of current the lightning is pumping into Luke is maintained, it's still an essentially undirected and random circuit, and will split off into lesser resistive paths through the bodies as much as it can. If the shortest circuit(so to speak) goes nowhere near an absolutely vital organ that he can't even make it to a bacta tank in time to deal with, it'll hardly be deadly. He'll want recovery time, but that's another matter altogether, and one they actually did address well, looking back, in the EU. The Alliance wouldn't let him near an X-Wing in the next battle, forget actually directly being involved in the fight.

The thing that makes Vader interesting is that you really don't even need an explanation for the (lack of) insulation on his suit. With his hand cut off and wiring exposed, as well as the cut on the arm. As he's throwing Palpatine over the edge, current's getting shoved into that system that it's not designed to handle. It still works after, but it's failing. As it fails, so does his body.

Havok wrote:The movies show that FL really isn't that lethal, even when used by the most powerful Sith Lord yet.

No, the movies do not show that. The movies only allow it to be theoretically possible if certain EU is ignored and some character dialogue is dumped. As I said, we didn't get to see what would have happened if Palpatine had just gone on frying Luke with no interference from Vader. Thus, what you need to say that your theory is proved by the film just isn't there.

Havok wrote:As I have always said, it is the EU's job to conform to the movie, not the movie's job to be explained so the EU makes sense.

That's the thing about EU: the authors, in many cases, presumably do think that their work conforms to the movies, in that it tends to represent deduction based on film evidence ( though authors sometimes make mistakes and sometimes deviate from the films in promoting their pet theories ). In this case, this is the first time I've heard this theory on the non-lethality of Force lightning. In other words, I came away from ROTJ having the same impression James Luceno apparently did: that Force lightning is potentially lethal. This idea doesn't play as "not making sense"; on the contrary, it seems entirely reasonable as a conclusion, given that there's no particular rationale for Palpatine's ROTJ dialogue on the subject to be as misguided as the non-lethality position would force it to be. Similarly, in ROTS we hear the phrases "unlimited power" and "the full power of the dark side" in lightning scenes; it seems logical that something characterized in such a fashion could be utilized to kill.

This becomes a question of Lucas intent. I don't think the intent of the relevant scenes was to tell us that FL can't be lethal.

Based on the movie, I'd say that while the show of lightning is rather impressive, circuit wise it's rather wasteful. To force that much electricity to jump from Palpatine's hands to Luke would require extreme amounts of voltage, but that doesn't necessarily imply lots of current. Voltage is the potential of electrons to jump from one side of a charged circuit to the other, but that doesn't mean that there is a notable current through that spark.

When Palpatine has Luke on the floor, that's actually Luke's safest place at that point. He's lying on a metal floor with electricity being pumped through him. The electricity will be much more inclined, if his clothes are sweaty from the exertion of fighting Vader, to arc along the clothes themselves to reach the metal floor. Very little is going into Luke, but again, that voltage means each bolt will feel like agony because of the chaos it'll throw into his muscles, causing them to get conflicting signals.

I'd say that Palpatine wasn't really wanting to kill Luke with the lightning, but rather torture him and force him to beg for mercy or, worse, give in and just surrender to the Dark Side.

Lord Revan wrote:while force powered technology exists in EU this is the first time I've ever heard of Vader's suit being a piece of such technology, all accounts I've heard it's simply normal medtech.

Could you give some examples of Force-powered technology? I'm fairly up on most of the EU, or used to be anyway, but I can't think of any examples of it off the top of my head.

EDIT: Well, okay other than the Jedi Shadow Bombs.

The Star Forge in The Knights Of The Old Republic a massive, force powered manufactoring plant that was providing Malak's Sith Empire with most of its toys.

Crazedwraith wrote:The Star Forge in The Knights Of The Old Republic a massive, force powered manufactoring plant that was providing Malak's Sith Empire with most of its toys.

and it's also not the only one of its type there's another one in TOR the propper name of which escapes me atm (I think it was the Crucible but don't quote me on that one) Spoiler , there's also implications that pretty much all Rakatan tech is Force powered.

That said most of that tech is lost to the empire as it's from civilizations that pre-date the Republic.

Though Hav in your anti-EU post, I'm surprised you didn't point out that you can't declare one of very few film Sith 'improper' based on what a bunch of shitty EU sources have to say on the subject.

Does Sidious do anything that makes him an improper Sith based on what the movies say?

As to Force Lightning, I've never notcied the EU over state its lethality. But the ease of it? Definately. The movies portray it as something only the top level Sith can do. Dooku says mastering it makes him 'more power than any jedi'. It's clearly a big deal. In the EU? Any slightly peeved Solo child touching the darkside can so it straight off. So can any two bit rank amateur dark jedi minions.

Crazedwraith wrote:As to Force Lightning, I've never notcied the EU over state its lethality.

"A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning, which, unabated, has the power not only to incapacitate or kill, but to physically transform the victim." - Darth Plagueis

A burst of purple lightning arced down the steps, catching both men in the chest. They barely had time to scream before they were turned into charred and smoking husks. - Revan

Crazedwraith wrote:The Star Forge in The Knights Of The Old Republic a massive, force powered manufactoring plant that was providing Malak's Sith Empire with most of its toys.

Thanks. Video game and comic canon are the two biggest parts of the EU I've never touched.

It was briefly mentioned in the Karpyshyn books but they didn't go into much detail.

The ROTJ novel made it clear that Luke was deflecting away Force Lightning, and in Truce at Bakura, it mentions demineralisation and other electrical damage done.

Its clear that the Force Lightning wasn't....... lethal. Nor was it real electricity since Luke didn't suffer skin burns.

PainRack wrote:The ROTJ novel made it clear that Luke was deflecting away Force Lightning, and in Truce at Bakura, it mentions demineralisation and other electrical damage done.

Its clear that the Force Lightning wasn't....... lethal. Nor was it real electricity since Luke didn't suffer skin burns.

How does that prove that it wasn't potentially lethal?

The whole lethal/non-lethal argument seems to be a silly semantic one.

Is spraying a person with water lethal? Depends.

It's not semantics at all. As I pointed out, the SOURCE MATERIAL has never shown it kill without a secondary factor being added in.
It is not lethal as it has never killed anyone... that is pretty much beyond silly semantics.

Havok wrote:It's not semantics at all. As I pointed out, the SOURCE MATERIAL has never shown it kill without a secondary factor being added in.
It is not lethal as it has never killed anyone... that is pretty much beyond silly semantics.

But Hav, I was counting the EU stuff that directly states it as being potentially lethal on it's own , this stuff

Arawn Fenn wrote: "A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning, which, unabated, has the power not only to incapacitate or kill, but to physically transform the victim." - Darth Plagueis

A burst of purple lightning arced down the steps, catching both men in the chest. They barely had time to scream before they were turned into charred and smoking husks. - Revan

That statement does nothing to disprove my argument as I stated outright that all examples are against Jedi, who are no doubt abating the lightning. Not to mention the fact that I was making my point from a movie only example.

Havok wrote:all examples are against Jedi, who are no doubt abating the lightning.

But if you hurt them enough that they can't abate it any longer, lethality follows.

DARTH PLAGUEIS SPOILERS

Darth Sciguy wrote: First, The Rule of Two was set to make sure that each apprentice is stronger then the master by having the apprentice defeat the master in a one on one battle and this is how the apprentice becomes a Master, however Darth Sidious doesn't do this he kills his master in his sleep so that means he never defeated his master and never became a true master.

Well, firstly, Plagueis did have an opportunity to defend himself, but was so confident in his immortality he just sat there and dared Sidious to kill him. I don't imagine how Palpatine could just...force him to fight?

Secondly, Palpatine outsmarted Plagueis. That's a certain kind of superiority.

Second, Masters are supposed to train their apprentices to one day take over by killing them however Darth Sidious used his apprentices and during the movies it seemed he never really cared. The fact that him and Vader lived side by side for many years with out a challenge is proof.

Sidious could never have foreseen Vader getting disfigured. Had Vader not been injured, he surely would have surpassed Palpatine, and the dark lord knew it. He even says it to Yoda in RotS.

Crazedwraith wrote: As to Force Lightning, I've never notcied the EU over state its lethality.

It overstates its lethality by at least several orders of magnitude. I don't have quotes with me at the moment, but there are instances where Sidious simultaneously kills fifty armored clones through force lightening, and another where he turns several dark side practitioners into charred ash. Revan also does the same by redirecting lightning from a powerful sith lord.

Darth Tedious wrote:The whole question of FL lethality is a bit of a red herring in this case, I think.

It's not like there's no other ways Palpy could have killed Vader.

Hasn't there even been some implication that Vader's suit is Force-powered (by Palpy) to some extent? That would perfectly explain Vader dying shortly after Palpy did...

Why would Vader's suit be powered by Sidious? Wouldn't it have been counterproductive to want him and Luke to overthrow Sidious and take over the Empire only to die shortly after killing Palpy?

Saying that Sidious isn't a True Sith is like saying that Darth Bane wasn't a true sith for not following the rules of his order. It's a meaningless discussion. Sidious, like Bane, survived so he decides what a Sith is.

Arawn Fenn wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:As to Force Lightning, I've never notcied the EU over state its lethality.

"A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning, which, unabated, has the power not only to incapacitate or kill, but to physically transform the victim." - Darth Plagueis

A burst of purple lightning arced down the steps, catching both men in the chest. They barely had time to scream before they were turned into charred and smoking husks. - Revan

The transform part we see and I assume is a direct nod to Palpatine getting his face melted by his reflected Force Lightning. As for the Jedi not being able to copy Force Lightning, that really does not matter. Luke had a superior version in his Emerald Spark ability that seemed to kill instantly.

Havok wrote:It's not semantics at all. As I pointed out, the SOURCE MATERIAL has never shown it kill without a secondary factor being added in.
It is not lethal as it has never killed anyone... that is pretty much beyond silly semantics.

IIRC in Return of the Jedi Palaptine says something like "And now young Skywalker, you will die." Then starts blasting him again with lightning. Clearly Palpatine thought the lightning would kill Luke.