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SancheztheWhaler wrote:

The Vortex Empire wrote:I hate George Lucas for not stopping this bitch.

How much money do you suppose she makes for George Lucas in a given year? Tally that up and you'll understand why she's not going anywhere.

I question the benefit that Traviss brings to the franchise. Let any hack write an official SW novel and you'll get a spot on the NYT Bestseller list. That much is apparent after her Jedi-hating diatribe Revelation. I do believe that SW helps Traviss, not the other way around.

Base Delta Zero wrote:Well... you can, sorta, depending on your definition of 'many'. Or even none, if your army consists of say, Space Marines, and the enemy are, for instance, retarded toddlers with sticks (not even pointy sticks), and you get lucky.

Yeah, but like your example shows the qualitative gap has to be ridiculous. Way more than even the US Military has over uneducated and dirt poor insurgents. Way more than the practically nonexistent gap between the Republic and the Confederacy. In anything other than the most one-sided, bullshit fantasy story, troop quality just doesn't take you that far.

I dunno, recent history suggests that casualty rates between opposing forces can be QUITE vast. Desert Storm provides a pretty obvious example, with Iraqi battlefield deaths probably being somewhere in the vicinity of 25,000 and 100,000 against the 358 KIA for the Coalition forces, putting the Iraqi/Coalition battle death rate at somewhere between about 70:1 and 279:1, which is at least in the same ballpark as the numbers we're talking about here.

When you consider that only about 14-15% of most modern military forces are actually combat troops, and that only a very small proportion of the Coalition forces saw meaningful combat (keep in mind that the largest single engagement of the whole operation - 73 Easting - saw an American company annihilate an entire brigade with no losses of its own), wildly disproportionate kill totals don't seem that far fetched, at least in battles that ended in routes.

That's being extremely charitable. It's abundantly obvious that she intends to compare the martial prowess of individual infantry soldiers, which is exactly 1337 Spartans in every glass of cold, refreshing Mando'ade. Or something. And if the disparity between the Republic and the Confederacy was as wide the one between the USA and Iraq, then why is this a ZOMG GALACTIC CIVIL WAR?

Way more than the practically nonexistent gap between the Republic and the Confederacy. In anything other than the most one-sided, bullshit fantasy story, troop quality just doesn't take you that far.

The qualitative gap between battledroids and clone troopers does seem, in all fairness, to be a little more than 'practically nonexistent.' There are other factors at work here, too. In most cases, we see the Republic taking an essentially defensive stance, which is traditionally assumed to multiply the combat power of the defending force by a factor of at least three. Combat command has to be factored in as well: the higher echelons of the CIS command structure often seemed to have only a tenuous grasp of basic military practice. Even some of the supposedly 'better' CIS commanders (*cough*Grievous*cough*) seem to rely pretty much exclusively on massed frontal assaults when push comes to shove, precisely the sort of tactics that produce vastly disproportionate casualty rates even when they succeed.

Darth Raptor wrote:That's being extremely charitable. It's abundantly obvious that she intends to compare the martial prowess of individual infantry soldiers, which is exactly 1337 Spartans in every glass of cold, refreshing Mando'ade. Or something. And if the disparity between the Republic and the Confederacy was as wide the one between the USA and Iraq, then why is this a ZOMG GALACTIC CIVIL WAR?

I believe Comrade Dzugashvili might have said it best...

Given the way the Republic forces were annihilating the Separatists on Geonosis, I can actually believe in a 200-1 kill ratio for the Republic, but this was likely the result of the Republic having air and naval superiority during major battles, and likely had nothing whatsoever to do with Traviss' uber-mando wank clone infantry. Most droid casualties were probably the result of the republic forces hanging back while air, naval, and artillery assets proceeded to blast droid mass-infantry formations into oblivion.

I wonder which sorry suck up fucker is protecting this bitch. This is why I quit the EU 2 years ago. I have never understood how and why a small subset of Star Wars fans is worth sucking up to when you are alienating lots of people.

The point is they AREN'T alienating a lot of people. They're certainly alienating a lot of US (but then they did that when they started the NJO or refused to take back KJA's stuff) but we represent a rather small fraction of the people who buy Star Wars books.
MOST people who read the Star Wars novels couldn't possibly care less wether the numbers in them make sense as they want nothing more than a way to pass the time, and a lot of them would likely not understand the numbers involved anyway.

Ba'al's Thunderbolt wrote:I dunno, recent history suggests that casualty rates between opposing forces can be QUITE vast. Desert Storm provides a pretty obvious example, with Iraqi battlefield deaths probably being somewhere in the vicinity of 25,000 and 100,000 against the 358 KIA for the Coalition forces, putting the Iraqi/Coalition battle death rate at somewhere between about 70:1 and 279:1, which is at least in the same ballpark as the numbers we're talking about here.

When you consider that only about 14-15% of most modern military forces are actually combat troops, and that only a very small proportion of the Coalition forces saw meaningful combat (keep in mind that the largest single engagement of the whole operation - 73 Easting - saw an American company annihilate an entire brigade with no losses of its own), wildly disproportionate kill totals don't seem that far fetched, at least in battles that ended in routes.

This was the entire fucking world with the US and other great powers against Iraq's shitty military. Iraq posed practically no naval or air resistance, so the coalition was free to bomb and cruise missile the shit out of Saddam for a month with impunity. The coalition didn't try to press that much into Iraq and occupy it; they were content with liberating Kuwait.

Even if I were to take a number from the higher end of those Iraqi estimates, like 75,000, then it works out to be about 200 to 1. Is that what we want to model the Clone Wars after? A real life military equivalent of a complete curbstomp, with high end estimates? The Gulf War is not a good analogy to the Clone Wars at all. In the Clone Wars both sides possessed capable space forces and were capable of attacking. Both sides also actually conquered and occupied territory.

A decade later in the Iraq War the US has actually tried to occupy the country, and 150,000 of our uber troops (and yes, they are uber by world standards) haven't been able to establish order yet after taking thousands of casualties.

There are other factors at work here, too. In most cases, we see the Republic taking an essentially defensive stance, which is traditionally assumed to multiply the combat power of the defending force by a factor of at least three.

No they weren't. The Separatists were, um, trying to secede from the Republic. The Republic's objective was to hold on to its planets, and we see plenty of Republic invasions throughout the movies, books, and cartoons.

Combat command has to be factored in as well: the higher echelons of the CIS command structure often seemed to have only a tenuous grasp of basic military practice. Even some of the supposedly 'better' CIS commanders (*cough*Grievous*cough*) seem to rely pretty much exclusively on massed frontal assaults when push comes to shove, precisely the sort of tactics that produce vastly disproportionate casualty rates even when they succeed.

Grievous is described as a military genius. Furthermore, from other sources which Traviss has chosen to ignore (ROTS ICS) he prefers WMD. For example he BDZ'ed Humbarine and wiped out every single human in a sector using a bioweapon. 200 to 1 kills my ass.

Batman wrote:The point is they AREN'T alienating a lot of people. They're certainly alienating a lot of US (but then they did that when they started the NJO or refused to take back KJA's stuff) but we represent a rather small fraction of the people who buy Star Wars books.
MOST people who read the Star Wars novels couldn't possibly care less wether the numbers in them make sense as they want nothing more than a way to pass the time, and a lot of them would likely not understand the numbers involved anyway.

They are certainly alienating some of the non-pro-Mandos because any serious fan would have noticed that she is pushing a very anti-Jedi agenda and that cropped up even on TF.N.

From a business perspective, the people who are offended by Traviss's bullshit books are insignificant among the sea of dumbasses willing to fork over their money no matter what. But this goes back to what I said before. If any two-bit writer can write a bestseller going on the SW brand name alone, why stick with the two-bit hack who's intentionally dicking with a small portion of the fans? What we want, and what the fanwhores want, doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. What makes Traviss so special, that they HAVE to have her? Nothing.

If I were Lucas, I would get another author on pure pride alone. No one who works for me would be allowed to screw with and contradict my universe the way Traviss has. But that would involve me actually giving a damn about the EU.

This was the entire fucking world with the US and other great powers against Iraq's shitty military. Iraq posed practically no naval or air resistance, so the coalition was free to bomb and cruise missile the shit out of Saddam for a month with impunity. The coalition didn't try to press that much into Iraq and occupy it; they were content with liberating Kuwait.

As opposed to the entire fucking galaxy aligned against a few thousand star systems? A few thousand star systems whose military forces consist overwhelmingly of dumb-as-rocks robots, with fairly limited combat effectiveness, robots who try to use early gunpowder type tactical formations on a battlespace defined by energy weapons of almost unimaginable power, orbital bombardment and strafing runs by star fighters? A few thousand star systems facing an entire galaxy with their own leader, Dooku, putting his thumb on the scales to make sure "his" side lost? I'm not saying Traviss isn't marking out for "Mandos" or whatever, I'm just suggesting that the automatic dismissal of lopsided casualty rates isn't really warranted, given the lessons of our own recent history.

Except the strategic balance of power was never that lopsided in favor of either side. Up until the Outer Rim Sieges, it could have gone either way. During the Battle of Coruscant, it looked like the Confederacy would win. Palpatine's political theater demands at least a rough parity between the CIS and the Republic if it's to be at all compelling. According to the RotS ICS, the Republic was on the ropes. And those estimates of "a few thousand systems" are those that *joined* the Confederacy immediately prior to Geonosis.

Ba'al's Thunderbolt wrote:As opposed to the entire fucking galaxy aligned against a few thousand star systems?

The Separatist movement started with a few thousand star systems. Then Count Dooku brought in the big corporations and their massive droid armies. After that, in AOTC Dooku talks about 10,000 systems ready to join the Separatist movement. This did not include the vast territories and assets of the Trade Federation, Techno Union, Commerce Guild, Banking Clan, and Corporate Alliance. The Databank on the official site states that the Trade Federation "effectively controlled shipping throughout the galaxy," and that "Many of the galaxy's most industrialized worlds are key members of the Techno Union."

In AOTC, before the Clone Army was revealed the Confederacy leaders were confident that they had the biggest and baddest military in the galaxy, and could overwhelm the Republic. This was not the SW equivalent of a pissant third-world country like Iraq taking on the US and several dozen other nations all at once.

dumb-as-rocks robots, with fairly limited combat effectiveness, robots who try to use early gunpowder type tactical formations on a battlespace defined by energy weapons of almost unimaginable power, orbital bombardment and strafing runs by star fighters?

As opposed to the dumb-as-rocks Clones who use the same mass formations in battle, as shown in the cartoons and the actual movies? I find it hilarious that Stormtroopers are such a joke with the fanboys, the same fanboys who glorify the Clonetroopers. The Clones ARE the Stormtroopers.

The Separatists also had their own starships, fighters, artillery, and armored vehicles to support their infantry, just like the Republic did. The Republic didn't have the luxury of prepping the Separatists for a month straight with airstrikes and stand-off missile attacks without taking any casualties of their own.

A few thousand star systems facing an entire galaxy with their own leader, Dooku, putting his thumb on the scales to make sure "his" side lost?

And Chancellor Palpatine wasn't dicking with the Republic to make sure there was an actual war?

I'm not saying Traviss isn't marking out for "Mandos" or whatever, I'm just suggesting that the automatic dismissal of lopsided casualty rates isn't really warranted, given the lessons of our own recent history.

The selected "history" you're using is a superpower and several dozen other nations simultaneously ass-raping a third world nation that never stood a chance and was retarded for even trying. That was not the Clone Wars.

About the only way a 200:1 kill ratio works is if the Republic was BDZing planets left and right. Which is entirely possible. But unconfirmed.

Ender wrote:About the only way a 200:1 kill ratio works is if the Republic was BDZing planets left and right. Which is entirely possible. But unconfirmed.

While Republic BDZs did occur (ICS), that's no way to fight a Separatist movement as your objective would be to retain your territory. The CIS could also make BDZs of its own, and we know it did. I would think the Separatists would resort to such tactics even more, since they're not the ones trying to claim the entire galaxy, and their leader General Grievous is described as a horrifying monster who has burned numerous worlds. We know he BDZed Humbarine, which was a Coruscant equivalent. The Republic's casualties in that one sector he wiped out with a bioweapon must have been something ridiculous.

Darth Raptor wrote:Except the strategic balance of power was never that lopsided in favor of either side. Up until the Outer Rim sieges, it could have gone either way. During the Battle of Coruscant, it looked like the Confederacy would win. Palpatine's political theater demands at least a rough parity between the CIS and the Republic if it's to be at all compelling. According to the RotS ICS, the Republic was on the ropes. And those estimates of "a few thousand systems" are those that *joined* the Confederacy immediately prior to Geonosis.

1. Interior lines of communication and initiative: it took the Republic time to mobilize and capitalize on its inherent advantages, and, during the earlier phases of the war, the dispersal of forces necessary to provide a defense for the vast majority of systems that didn't join the Separatists limited available combat power at the front. The situation is not unlike that faced by the Union command staff over the first two years of the American Civil War. The necessity of fully manning the Washington forts and the relative ease with which Lee could shift units from one part of Virginia to another through his control of the interior lines often granted Lee the initiative during the early years of the war. Even when Federal forces were able to dictate the tempo of operations, they weren't able to get the full weight of their potential combat power into action before the middle of 1863, which meant that, prior to Gettysburg, the Confederacy often seemed to have the upper hand. Which doesn't mean the CSA was ever a realistic threat to gain outright military victory over the Union.

2. The Confederacy consisted of "thousands" of systems prior to Geonosis, with a further 10,000 joining in the immediate wake of the outbreak of war. That leaves the other 900,000+ systems still in the Republic, including the Core Worlds (where the bulk of the galaxy's productive capacity was concentrated).

3. Palpatine was dealing from his own stacked deck. AND he effectively controlled the media. AND one of his core personality traits was "fucking liar." So why would we presume that the Republic must have been genuinely threatened by the CIS forces for his "political theater" to work?

Oh, I don't know.

They seem enough of a real threat to me...

I will be ignoring this latest Travissty to the best of my ability, as I have been doing with the EU for a good long while now.

Incidentally, did anyone see this comic and cringe for the future of Star Wars fans?

Killing a shit ton of civilians does not mean that the CIS were a legitimate threat to conquer and hold the Republic. Convincing civilians that a given danger represents a serious threat is not difficult. How long did it take Americans to collectively realize that al Qaeda wasn't a meaningful threat? Longer than than 3 years, for sure.

I have now officially given up on the EU. That this woman is not fired yet shows me just how disconnected from his cash cow Lucas is.

Killing a shit ton of civilians does not mean that the CIS were a legitimate threat to conquer and hold the Republic. Convincing civilians that a given danger represents a serious threat is not difficult. How long did it take Americans to collectively realize that al Qaeda wasn't a meaningful threat? Longer than than 3 years, for sure.

No, it just means they can destroy the Republic. Civilians compose the Republic, and when they are all dead, it is no longer a problem. You don't have to kill that many though- just enough to case the war industries to collapse.

Samuel wrote:

Killing a shit ton of civilians does not mean that the CIS were a legitimate threat to conquer and hold the Republic. Convincing civilians that a given danger represents a serious threat is not difficult. How long did it take Americans to collectively realize that al Qaeda wasn't a meaningful threat? Longer than than 3 years, for sure.

No, it just means they can destroy the Republic. Civilians compose the Republic, and when they are all dead, it is no longer a problem. You don't have to kill that many though- just enough to case the war industries to collapse.

How does it follow that they can destroy the Republic. Hitting a soft target with massive overkill doesn't imply the ability to carry out the same sort of assault on a more heavily defended target.

Baal what the fuck is the suppose to be the clone army if they number so few ? If the entire war is fought by Republic starships why not just recruit 3 million dudes and give them guns made of gold and armor coated with diamonds...

No one would raise a clone army unless they needed the mind boggling numbers to halt the kind of zerg rush droid armies could pull off.

Sarevok wrote:Baal what the fuck is the suppose to be the clone army if they number so few ? If the entire war is fought by Republic starships why not just recruit 3 million dudes and give them guns made of gold and armor coated with diamonds...

No one would raise a clone army unless they needed the mind boggling numbers to halt the kind of zerg rush droid armies could pull off.

Uh, because you're a Sith Lord and you want an army preprogammed to shoot all the Jedi in the back when the time comes? Did the story arc of the films completely elude you?

OK, since I'm bored, I'm going to get into this one.

Baal, did you read Samuel's post? Past the first sentence, I mean. He said:

Civilians compose the Republic, and when they are all dead, it is no longer a problem. You don't have to kill that many though- just enough to case the war industries to collapse.

Ok, so, let's assume that somehow, killing all the Republics citizens won't cause it to collapse (Highly unlikely, see Japan in WW2, it was in the same situation (a lack of resouces) but for a different reason. As we all know, Japan lost the war because of this). The mere fact that the CIS were able to kill that many people implies that they are able to face the Republic on equal footing, as the CIS had to have done it somehow, and (whether it's a superweapon or sheer numbers) if the CIS can kill civilians using these methods, they can probably kill the GAR with the same method. Note that starships rule out bioweapons to use on the GAR because they are able to traverse space (meaning they are sealed off).

Another problem with your argument, which I disregarded in the scenario above, is the fact that if you kill the civilians, there is no-one to work in the factories. I'm sure that even you could follow this one through, but you're probably thinking "What about droids? They can work the factories instead!". The answer to this one is extremely simple: the Republic is fighting a droid army, so I'd actually be surprised if droids were still working in war factories!

I think that's all your points addressed, but feel free to correct me on that if it isn't.

Ok, and since you've responded to someone else's statement, I'll answer that one in a few words: What. The. Fuck. How is Palpatine's plan relevant to his point? In fact, it disproves the 300 nonsence right off for two blindingly simple reasons:
1) You'd need a shitton of clones to take down all the Jedi, even with the element of surprise.
2) To get said element of surprise, you'd need to convince said Jedi that there was a massive war going on, which is much easier and can be done more efficiently if you actually make said war happen!