Power of Trek weapons, exaggurated??

[TheDarkling]

Master of Ossus: You its not your average incident but it did happen so we shuold at least try to justify it somehow maybe shields work better against plasma or something.

We then have the huge TOS Planet killing anti matter and the death star level blast against the Ent-Nil (although that example was rather odd) and we have huge inflated Voyager figures aswell, the odd TNG incident of high fire power and a DS9 incident or two etc.

On the other hand we have the torps that do less damage them a klingon sneeze.

In short we see an odd number and say "its off the curve ignore it" but then when we keep getting other weird results in that area do we reconsider the curve thus like I said we cant just disregard evidence for being off the curve when we havent constructed a curve.

[Master of Ossus]

I agree. That is how you deal with anomalies. You look at them, try to explain why they are different from the mean, and then work with that when you come to conclusions. This incident is an anomaly, as is the alleged incident that gave the E-D 3000GT shields.

[TheDarkling]

Master of Ossus: Actually it was the power house of a ship known as the Ent-Nil but you say its an oddity and common sense indicates it is however without having correcting evidence we cant just declare it null and void.

Where else do we get shield figures from?

I have seen shield figures of 7 MT if we have others that low then we say "this is odd can we reconcile the evidence" and we get "yes its more efficient against plasma" but then "no because of this evidence" etc etc until we just ignore it.

However you have gone straight to "ignore it" without going past the other stages first.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

That's easy. A curve would show a real low number with a few outliers.

Many times, on closer inspection, the high numbers drop precipitously.

A long time ago, a real favorite of Trekkies is Pegasus. Supposedly, you can produce 10GT photorps from that, if not more.

Now, Pegasus produces 500kT photorps. Getting my drift?

BTW, How do you know the planet killer must be (100%) using full power? Don't tell me it is logical. Tell me how you KNOW, because the rationalization process will involve the use the lowered power level.

[TheDarkling]

Kazuaki Shimazaki: I wasnt talking about the Doomsday machine (the one that eats planets) but that weird and wacky Sonic weapon which gave huge results however I said it wasnt really applicable because calcs for that werent correct however the doomsday machine is another example of high yeild sheilding and thus weapons.

The larger Pegasus figures come for takling the asteriod to have a larger than stand mass due to some concerns overs its gravity so thats interpretation however a 500 KT explosion for Pho Torps just doesnt cut it with other higher yields so the question becmoes what do we get from each incident of pho torp use.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

It is impossible to determine the power setting chosen by the Doomsday Machine. All we really know for certain is that it didn't destroy the E-nil that day.

The ultra-dense asteroid. I heard of it. Really, all they said was that the gravity MIGHT affect the Enterprise and stuff. It really shows more how weak the Feds are weak.

Witness the model argument for Pegasus as the ASVS FAQ.

[Vympel]

Forget the wierd blue torpedo of ST:V- let's keep the focus on TNG. ST:V was awful anyway.

Best looking photon torpedoes? Easily those in First Contact. Followed closely by ST:VI. But I wish in the movies they'd decide once and for all how a torpedo looks like and just STICK WITH IT.

[arctic_series]

don't you see, the secret weapon of trek isn't technobable. it's inconsistencies. you can't argue against or even disapprove inconsistencies, in a sense inconsistencies is also immune to facts and logic.

[TheDarkling]

arctic_series: In truth SW has it share of inconsistencies just take a look at Rogue squadron books - thats just insane less than a km range on weapons? photon torps kill cap ships in one shot etc.

ST on the other hand went from Mega power - planet destroying fire power on ST ships to ships packing fire crackers and then it began to move up into high power range through DS9 until Voyager had about 40000 times more power than Ent-D (a few terrawatt quotes etc).

In short ST is worse but SW isnt blameless the only problem is that SW non-canon can be over ruled but all of ST has equal standing.

[TheDarkling]

Proton torps not photon.

[Crazy_Vasey]

arctic_series: In truth SW has it share of inconsistencies just take a look at Rogue squadron books - thats just insane less than a km range on weapons? photon torps kill cap ships in one shot etc.

That's because Stackpoles idea of research is to play X-Wing for a bit...

[Alyeska]

It is impossible to determine the power setting chosen by the Doomsday Machine. All we really know for certain is that it didn't destroy the E-nil that day.

The ultra-dense asteroid. I heard of it. Really, all they said was that the gravity MIGHT affect the Enterprise and stuff. It really shows more how weak the Feds are weak.

Witness the model argument for Pegasus as the ASVS FAQ.

How weak Feds are? Did you notice that the small asteroid (compared to a planet that is) was somehow able to produce gravity changes enough to threaten a shuttle? It was enough to threaten a shuttle that can crash land on a planet and have the hull survive, enough to threaten a shuttle that can bounce off a planets atmosphere. As small as that asteroid was it was doing things it should not have been able to, something large planets could not even do. Using the Pegasus incident is mostly pointless because there are a series of variables that we know nothing about.

[Vympel]

If we had another TNG asteroid incident then we could possibly disgard the Pegasus incident as an anomaly, unfortunately we have none. I'm a scientific ignormaus so I don't know but whatever the properties of this asteroid there'd have to be a pretty well explained theory on why this one was special- the fact that it was hollow makes Fed photorps look really gay unfortunately (notice even some of the most rabid warsies still use the megaton torp figure anyway- tradition and all that).

[Alyeska]

If we had another TNG asteroid incident then we could possibly disgard the Pegasus incident as an anomaly, unfortunately we have none. I'm a scientific ignormaus so I don't know but whatever the properties of this asteroid there'd have to be a pretty well explained theory on why this one was special- the fact that it was hollow makes Fed photorps look really gay unfortunately (notice even some of the most rabid warsies still use the megaton torp figure anyway- tradition and all that).

We know parts of the asteroid are hollow, that is all. We also know from other episodes that the E-D ENTIRE weapons compliment was considered possibly enough to destroy a moon of unknown size. Pegasus has to many unknowns to draw any real firepower figures from.

[Dooey Jo]

Did those big troop transport ships (forgot their names) in AotC fire proton torpedoes at the trade federation ships or was it just concussion missiles?

[StarshipTitanic]

Did those big troop transport ships (forgot their names) in AotC fire proton torpedoes at the trade federation ships or was it just concussion missiles?

They didn't fire at all...or are you thinking about the helocopter-type things?

[Dooey Jo]

Yeah, those ships that shot down the trade federation ships (weren't they troop transports?). What kind of missiles were they firing?

[Master of Ossus]

Unclear. They were neither proton torpedoes or concussion missiles, but they might have been virtually anything else. ICS says that they can fire multiple kinds of missiles, which does not help us at all, here.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

Heres something that I posted at SB board.

There have been many occassions in Star Trek where we see an explosion of a photon/quantum/etc. and it doesn't even look like it's a Kiloton blast. Ex. 1: Star Trek V when Capt. Kirk orders Chekov to fire on the phony "God" entity.
Ex. 2: In DS9 ep. The Ship, when Sisko and crew capture a Jem Hadar vessel they are bombarded by enemy vessels.
Ex. 3: On Voy the episode I don't recall the name of, where Voyager encounter a planetoid that entirely a body of water. (it's when Tom Paris gets demoted to ensign). Well Tom helps one of the inhabitants try to destroy a structure that is hurting the planet. Voyager Fires photon Torpedo to destroy the missle that the Delta flyer fires and the Explosion is pretty small.

My point is that in all those situations the explosions look like they are no way close to some on the figure many trekkies and SW fans give, which are very generous mind you.
64 megatons, I don't think so.

These are two other incidences besides the one in ST:V were we see torp explosion that are nowhere near the generous figure of 64 megatons.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

Heres something that I posted at SB board.

There have been many occassions in Star Trek where we see an explosion of a photon/quantum/etc. and it doesn't even look like it's a Kiloton blast. Ex. 1: Star Trek V when Capt. Kirk orders Chekov to fire on the phony "God" entity.
Ex. 2: In DS9 ep. The Ship, when Sisko and crew capture a Jem Hadar vessel they are bombarded by enemy vessels.
Ex. 3: On Voy the episode I don't recall the name of, where Voyager encounter a planetoid that entirely a body of water. (it's when Tom Paris gets demoted to ensign). Well Tom helps one of the inhabitants try to destroy a structure that is hurting the planet. Voyager Fires photon Torpedo to destroy the missle that the Delta flyer fires and the Explosion is pretty small.

My point is that in all those situations the explosions look like they are no way close to some on the figure many trekkies and SW fans give, which are very generous mind you.
64 megatons, I don't think so.

These are two other incidences besides the one in ST:V were we see torp explosion that are nowhere near the generous figure of 64 megatons.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

Here's something that I posted at SB board.

There have been many occassions in Star Trek where we see an explosion of a photon/quantum/etc. and it doesn't even look like it's a Kiloton blast. Ex. 1: Star Trek V when Capt. Kirk orders Chekov to fire on the phony "God" entity.
Ex. 2: In DS9 ep. The Ship, when Sisko and crew capture a Jem Hadar vessel they are bombarded by enemy vessels.
Ex. 3: On Voy the episode I don't recall the name of, where Voyager encounter a planetoid that entirely a body of water. (it's when Tom Paris gets demoted to ensign). Well Tom helps one of the inhabitants try to destroy a structure that is hurting the planet. Voyager Fires photon Torpedo to destroy the missle that the Delta flyer fires and the Explosion is pretty small.

My point is that in all those situations the explosions look like they are no way close to some on the figure many trekkies and SW fans give, which are very generous mind you.
64 megatons, I don't think so.

These are two other incidences besides the one in ST:V were we see torp explosion that are nowhere near the generous figure of 64 megatons.

[Master of Ossus]

Incidentally, Darkling (I think it was him), kept telling me off for saying that higher weapons-yields were anomalies. I think it is clear that there are as many anomalous incidents for the low-power than for the high-power. While we cannot ignore either set, we can take a reasonable average, and I have no problems with the 50-100MT range estimates for photon torpedoes.

[SPOOFE]

Ex. 3: On Voy the episode I don't recall the name of, where Voyager encounter a planetoid that entirely a body of water. (it's when Tom Paris gets demoted to ensign). Well Tom helps one of the inhabitants try to destroy a structure that is hurting the planet. Voyager Fires photon Torpedo to destroy the missle that the Delta flyer fires and the Explosion is pretty small.

This one is the biggest indicator, I believe. We can assume that Tom would have wanted to use a large warhead to destroy the structure, which would have meant that it was filled with a nice chunk of antimatter. Even if Janeway's torp was only strong enough to destroy Tom's, there's still the antimatter in Tom's missile that will, upon contacting matter, explode.

Unless Tom's missile wasn't an antimatter missile...

[Darth Yoshi]

That episode of Voyager clearly wasn't a M/AM blast. Even at low yields, that fact that Tom was underwater meant shockwaves. The shockwave produced as a result would have affect the vessel Tom Paris was on, whether it be merely rocking, or loss of power/shields, or destruction.

[Raxmei]

Torpedo technology has improved much since the days of early TNG. Back then they couldn't reduce the yield if they wanted to. Rember all those times when they needed to fire at close ranges but couldn't, for fear of hurting themselves in the explosion? If they had dial-a-yield that would have been less of a problem.
That means that all early TNG torps were at full power. Surely someone could use that information.