Projectile weapons

[Stark]

So, no analysis? Just '.50 BMG is teh uber, it will kill stormies'? Lets beg some more questions!

I'm actually surprised you guys could work out what his point is; I understand the words but I don't know where he's going with most of his sentences.

Deutschland, get some numbers. Stormie armour can protect against massive KE impacts. Show you're right instead of fapping off to a firearms magazine.

Hydrostatic shock! Woo!

[Gunhead]

Well Stark, I may not know that much about ST or even SW, but I do know my guns.
Now sure SW universe could produce a projectile that penetrates stormie armour the question is what would be the point?
It would be useful in some stealth operations and such, but even then it's usually preferred to wait until you're ready to start blasting around and take'em by surprise.


On that hydroshock thing, well I do have my doubts myself. It just gets thrown around a lot. Getting into it would be like starting an argument about what is the perfect bullet?

-Gunhead

[Stark]

I think I just gave the wrong impression. Modern firearms have jack on Stormie armour from what I've seen; but I imagine the Empire could indeed create a weapon that could do it. I don't know much about guns, but wouldn't a weapon with a penetrative projectile and heaps of KE have ridiculous recoil? Doesn't the spear example mean that projectiles that could penetrate are simply unusable by people?

[Gunhead]

Well it would be something like a baradium shaped charge (think miniature thermal detonator with the explosion channeled into a narrow jet).
By kinetic energy? No if you're using physics from the real world it couldn't be a handheld weapon. Then again we're talking about tech level that can and has leveled planets.

Bottom line is anyway that it would be possible by some projectile delivered explosive, similar to a HEAT round. Or at least should be.

-Gunhead

[Striderteen]

Well it would be something like a baradium shaped charge (think miniature thermal detonator with the explosion channeled into a narrow jet).

According to several EU sources, Rebel Alliance commando groups often used slugthrower weapons rather than blasters on primitive worlds in order to maintain a low profile, but had to use explosive armor-piercing rounds in order to reliably defeat Stormtrooper armor.

[General Zod]

snip

the staff in questio was fucking spear if an armor resist a spear that thrown with such force it can throw a man against a wall and knock the wind out of him and only make dent in the armor it's safe to assume that the armor can resist an .50 cal bullet

not necessarily. a solid chunk of wood can resist a spear, while a .40 caliber bullet might be enough to take out a sizable chunk, for example. different types of armor are designed to resist different types of weapons.

much like how kevlar works fine against regular bullets but knives or arrows would penetrate with relative ease.

[General Zod]

edit: should be .50 caliber. fucking typos.

[Lord of the Farce]

not necessarily. a solid chunk of wood can resist a spear, while a .40 caliber bullet might be enough to take out a sizable chunk, for example. different types of armor are designed to resist different types of weapons.

A spear thrown by an ordinary human, perhaps. But the example used for "this" example is not thrown by an ordinary human. And if anything, the spear should be more like a knife or an arrow, than a regular bullet.

[Lord Revan]

snip

the staff in questio was fucking spear if an armor resist a spear that thrown with such force it can throw a man against a wall and knock the wind out of him and only make dent in the armor it's safe to assume that the armor can resist an .50 cal bullet

not necessarily. a solid chunk of wood can resist a spear, while a .40 caliber bullet might be enough to take out a sizable chunk, for example. different types of armor are designed to resist different types of weapons.

much like how kevlar works fine against regular bullets but knives or arrows would penetrate with relative ease.

well the spear in question was thrown so hard that it target was thrown to a wall by just the shear impact of the spear into his body(, but did only nick the Stromtrooper armor.)

[Gunhead]

That spear incident could be used to calculate the lower limit of stormie armor KE resistance. Revan, did it say how far the stormie was thrown by the spear? If we know that we can guestimate how much stormtrooper+armor weights and go from there.

-Gunhead

[harbringer]

The spear design and material would possibly make a difference. If it was a streamlined head designed to punch through hard armour then ST armour is extremely resilient. This of course would be on par with the clone trooper (who wears almost identical armour) being next to an exploding AT-TE, the shrapnel from that alone would have been extreme but it appeared he survived. Rail guns etc. could develop the velocity and KE to be dangerous but there is some doubt whether this would be IRL practical or something the federation would use.

All in all easier to use a blaster, more common too. Whats more you dont have ammunition problems and probably better logistics with universal power cells.

[Darth Wong]

A high-momentum bullet to the head would kill a stormtrooper regardless of how strong his helmet is, by snapping his head back and causing blunt-force trauma in his brain. His helmet could be made of Marvel comics adamantium and he would still die.

The example with the robot-thrown spear in the book is interesting but you should keep in mind that it strikes directly in the centre of the chestplate, which is most likely the strongest part of the armour and your body's centre of mass.

[Deutschland]

Ok, I had a typo. I meant spear. God, some of you people take things to hard. SPEAR. Happy. SPEAR SPEAR SPEAR SPEAR...

[harbringer]

A high-momentum bullet to the head would kill a stormtrooper regardless of how strong his helmet is, by snapping his head back and causing blunt-force trauma in his brain. His helmet could be made of Marvel comics adamantium and he would still die.

Indeed the armour is quite likely stronger than the person/being in it. I think (or at least I was) people were trying to show that bullets wouldn't just slice through like a hot knife through the proverbial butter. Does it make a storm trooper immune nope but hard to kill sure. The weapons in SW that are slug throwers seem to be quite a bit more sophisticated than they at first appear. All this means it isn't likely that anyone in the federation will be able to use this to gain any capability and since storm troopers and so on use perfectly effective blasters they won't either.

[LaCroix]

A projectile with enough Ke would penetrate armor. Sure. but remember.. Ke sufficient to trow a person back onto a wall so hard that he nearly got unconsciuos from that event didnt penetrate, although it was apointy steel spear. Recoil of a weapon to deliver THIS amount of Ke with a bullet would also lift the operator of his feet or break his arm/bones, it would be sufficient to kill the gun operator(if he is not protected y the same armour). Except it is a rocket propelled recoilless gun, such a gun would have to be a "fixed" installation.

If that spear had hit his head, the trooper would have been killed by a broken neck. You dont always have to penetrate armour.

[MickeyMo]

I dont know if you mean the real world or the bizarro world of fiction.

I am reminded of the debate on megaton yields. The Soviet Union detonated a 58 megaton warhead in 1961, and yet you have people who seem to think that its not believable that that the 24th Century has them. An odd view since the Earth of 2005 can design and build 500 megaton devices.....rather odd that people 400 years from now could not.

In any case, the problem of armor has existed since the dawn of the Bronze Age...and STILL exists. Anything that is safe and cheap enough to be mass produced as armor is safe and cheap enough to be be mass produced as munitions to penetrate that armor.

How do you get through Tungsten or Uranium Armor....with Tungsten or Uranium projectiles.....same goes for "durasteel" or whatever you call it!

Shield are wank tech and cannot be analyzed rationally.

[Lone_Prodigy]

An odd view since the Earth of 2005 can design and build 500 megaton devices.....rather odd that people 400 years from now could not.

Maybe it's just me, but that sounded like a whiny Trekkie talking there. If they have never demonstrated the ability to use 500 megaton missiles, we shouldn't assume they can. We should simply measure the yield that they do have, such as needing hundreds to fragment a 10km hollowed-out asteroid.

How do you get through Tungsten or Uranium Armor....with Tungsten or Uranium projectiles.....same goes for "durasteel" or whatever you call it!

Well, in this case trying to use Plastisteel bullets to penetrate Plastisteel stormtrooper armor wouldn't work- although it is extremely strong, it has relatively low density (which is why people don't move around like they are wearing steel plates while wearing it) so it would take a whole lot of velocity in order for it to penetrate (which is why they simply use blasters).

Shield are wank tech and cannot be analyzed rationally.

What do you mean? We can quantify the results of impacts of them, their energy dissipation capacity, and many more things. Even if we don't understand the mechanism, we can understand the effects.

[MickeyMo]

1.Lone, if you're trying to say that 24th Century science cannot duplicate what 20th century science can ALREADY do...than you are already defeated.

If WE can make 50 meg warheads, the 24th century can.

2. There is no armor than cannot be penetrated by a projectile made of the same substance. It will never be easier to use anything else.

3. Ummm...your watching a MOVIE....you can "quantify" anything. Shields have no reality in Trek land, Wars land or any other land......puching a button and creating a magic bubble is Wank Tech.

[Duckie]

2. There is no armor than cannot be penetrated by a projectile made of the same substance. It will never be easier to use anything else.

Of course. I just bought some Kevlar bullets today. Oh, wait. Armor and Projectiles are not equal things. What do you think, that because Stormie Armor and Plastistell Bullets are the same material they magically cancel eachother?

3. Ummm...your watching a MOVIE....you can "quantify" anything. Shields have no reality in Trek land, Wars land or any other land......puching a button and creating a magic bubble is Wank Tech.

Go read anything on the site or the board, first off. It's called Suspension of Disbelief, wherein you iamge that the events of the movie really did happen as shown, and analyse them based on that.
Shields are shown in Star Trek and Star Wars (though differently in either), so they must have a way of occuring in that universe and we can quantify based on how much energy they can withstand.

[MickeyMo]

MR DOD.

1. Once again...there is NOTHING that can be cheap and safe enough as armor than cannot be be made cheap and safe enough as projectiles.

2. Shields are bs tech. I know you want suspension of belief......but I think suspension of belief should be limited by REALITY!

[Duckie]

MR DOD.

Gonna sound really arrogant here, but there's no space. It's an acronym. Okay, now to the substance.

1. Once again...there is NOTHING that can be cheap and safe enough as armor than cannot be be made cheap and safe enough as projectiles.

I once again point out Kevlar, which is reasonably safe (compared to not wearing a bullet resistant vest) and yet is as far as I know useless as a projectile material.

2. Shields are bs tech. I know you want suspension of belief......but I think suspension of belief should be limited by REALITY!

Do you understand SUSPENSION of belief or are you BSing as much as those shields as yours?
If suspension of disbelief were limited to reality, there would be no disbelief to suspend.
It doesn't matter if you can't make shields in real life, it's that they are in the film so they are quantifiable. This is all basic stuff. Read the below link to refresh, if you must.
From the Main Site

[MickeyMo]

1. Again..there is NO material that cannot be penetrated by projectile weapons....and there never can be since you can an at least make th eprojectiles of the same substance. thats REALITY....not on to...silliness

2. Suspension of belief does NOT mean suspension of Higher brain functions.

[Duckie]

1. Again..there is NO material that cannot be penetrated by projectile weapons....and there never can be since you can an at least make th eprojectiles of the same substance. thats REALITY....not on to...silliness

No, it's not. The qualities of armor and the qualities nescessary to be a projectile overlap in some ares but are not the same. Don't you get it?

2. Suspension of belief does NOT mean suspension of Higher brain functions.

Except that under Suspension of Disbelief, those events really did occur as shown, so it would be idiotic to deny them. They did occur, so we figure out what happened AROUND what happened. Sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "That's Impossible!" doesn't work.
Just a thought, It's also impossible for us to have a mile-long ship to generate enough power to slag a planet in one hour. That doesn't mean that a Star Destroyer is incapable of that.

[Duckie]

It just occured to me that you might be talking about efficiency of projectile weapons, in which case I should probably add this:

Yes, given enough force a bullet of any material could penetrate armor of the same material, but that doesn't matter. It's much more efficient to use a blaster than to use stormtrooper-armor-material projectiles against Stormtrooper armor, since (If I Remember Correctly), the database on the main site quoted that it takes hypersonic (or was it hypervelocity?) bullets to kill stormtroopers.

[MickeyMo]

Mr Dod

It will always be much easier and much cheaper to use projectiles against armor. It is today and will remain so forever. That applies in any century or galaxy.