A goofy thread that actually makes some sense.

[JodoForce]

'Exact calcs are hard to obtain'--all that means is that we don't know exactly how many times over will Goku kill Vader and Palpy. But we do know that it will be 'many, many times' without calcs.

Had to bring up that instead of the DS, because I wouldn't say Goku is sure to kill the DS many times over just yet, for fear of putting my foot in my mouth

[Kuja]

This has nothing to do with the manga or anime explaining something or power levels. It has to deal with reconciling observed feats and activities in a scientifically plausible fashion rather than some knee-jerk qualitative fanboy assertion. I have yet to meet a DBZ fan who actually makes a serious effort at analyzing the "claimed" events to come out with any sort of rational analysis.

Vegeta destroyed the planet Arlia. Here's how he did it:

1. Vegeta stops his spaceship outside the atmosphere of the planet, then exits his ship using its internal reserves to breath and remain standing.

2. Vegeta points at the planet Arlia. A purple energy beam issues from his right hand.

3. The beam hits Arlia and the planet explodes. It is destroyed so completely that the debris we see is dust-sized when it's compared to Vegeta, a human-sized person.

A practical debate is only possible under quantifiable terms. Power levels might work in internal-DBZ discussions, but they dont tell us much about how DBZ fares against other universes (and the usual qualitative fanboy-crap I talked about before is hardly helpful either.) If you're going to debate or make claims, you have to back them up. You can't do alot of hand waving and pretend science doesnt exist.

Vegeta points at Arlia. Arlia goes boom. Canon event, got it?

Besides which, there's also the small matter of Frieza taking FIVE MINUTES to destroy a planet - a DET event would be near-instantaneous destruction.

Your happy little theory ignores the fact the FRIEZA HELD BACK. He even states: "Damn, I held back too much energy." IIRC, Frieza destroyed Namek's core, which initiated a chain reaction that destroyed the planet completely five minutes later.

The same way other universes are gauged, by observation and quantification of abilities. Is there some reason you think we cannot apply the scientific method to the DBZ universe?

Vegeta points at Arlia. Arlia goes boom. Simple, isn't it?

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... hStar.html

Basically, 2e32 joules is required to scatter the mass of a planet, death-star style (to do so you need to accelerate the planet's mass to escape velocity, to overcome its own gravity, in order to scatter the mass.) In the case of the Death Star, the "escape velocitY" of the debris is substantially faster, so the energy input from the superlaser beam was proportionately greater. And this event is very rapid (like under a second, IIRC Alderaan correctly.)

Vegeta's destuctuion of Arlia was so complete that the larget ejecta seen is dust-sized.

[JodoForce]

Nail, head:

*POUND POUND POUND*

[Hamel]

Your happy little theory ignores the fact the FRIEZA HELD BACK. He even states: "Damn, I held back too much energy." IIRC, Frieza destroyed Namek's core, which initiated a chain reaction that destroyed the planet completely five minutes later.

Don't forget to mention how easily Freezer destroyed Vegeta. He launched a small ball of energy (which he shows no visible strain or effort in producing) that grew larger as it closed distance to the planet.

It then easily dug some distance into the planet before it detonated, though I don't recall how big Vegeta's remains where (if any were left)

Freezer did the deed while in his weakest form

[Kuja]

Don't forget to mention how easily Freezer destroyed Vegeta. He launched a small ball of energy (which he shows no visible strain or effort in producing) that grew larger as it closed distance to the planet.

Good point. I forgot about that.

It then easily dug some distance into the planet before it detonated, though I don't recall how big Vegeta's remains where (if any were left)

Freezer did the deed while in his weakest form

I'll have to dig up the video to see if there's any ejecta.

[KK]

If we're using the anime, Brolli is seen plain as day destroying an entire galaxy in a matter of seconds, and this was SSj1 form. He didn't get to his higher levels of power until coming into contact with Goku and releasing his longtime hatred.


If one opponent can destroy a planet with ease and the other has around human level durability, there is absolutely no need to scientifically explain why blowing up a planet makes them more powerful.

[ShinjiGohan]

I think I'll rerip that scene again, unless any of you still have it from when I posted it before.

[SAMAS]

I'll have to dig up the video to see if there's any ejecta.

IIRC, they showed some roughly pebble-sized pieces flying past Freeza's face when he was laughing at it.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Actually, Brolly would have probably been in his much weaker pseudo SSJ form, the one with the purple hair, considering that the first time he was seen going SSJ afterwards, he shattered the control circlet that was placed on his head. Now considering that PSSJ Brolly was still physically weak enough that non SSJ Goku could make him bleed a tiny bit, wheras SSJ Brolly casually walked right through a fully charged Kamehameha with 0 damage... SSJ Brolly also casually blew up the planet Shamo, just to torment its survivors.

If we're using the movies, then

As for the planetbusting, they were afraid that he was gonna blow up the planet with his Kamehameha during his fight with Cell, Cell tossed out a casual homing blast that would have blown up the planet if Goku had dodged it in any way but the method he used, some of the regular shots that pre-SSJ Goku casually deflected from Frieza went wide and blew up the nearby planets, Buu blew up several other planets while hunting for Goku and Vegeta, Vegeta shattered a panet when he first went SSJ, and a heavily injured SSJ Gohan overwhelmed the blast that Cell claimed would blow up the solar system (and the rest of the Z-Senshi seemed to think he had enough power for it) with only one hand. Planet Vegeta, which Frieza casually blew up in his first form, was massive enough to have 10X the gravity of the planet Earth. Frieza decided to blow up the Earth when he realized that Goku wasn't there.

As for ki energy coming from nowhere and not following the laws of physics, neither does the Force or FTL travel. Otherwise, Goku's/Vader's brains would fly out their ears whenever they use TK (equal and opposite reaction), Palpatine would have to eat several megatons worth of energy to generate Force Lightning that strong (conservation of energy), and both of their galaxies are less than a few real life solar systems wide since they can apparently cross it in less than a year with less than light speed (the absolute limit of c).

[The Drunkard Kid]

Forget the movies reference, since Brolly is the only one that blew up a planet in the movie, AFAIK.

[Kuja]

IIRC, they showed some roughly pebble-sized pieces flying past Freeza's face when he was laughing at it.

I checked, and it seems you're right.

[Connor MacLeod]

Vegeta destroyed the planet Arlia. Here's how he did it:

1. Vegeta stops his spaceship outside the atmosphere of the planet, then exits his ship using its internal reserves to breath and remain standing.

2. Vegeta points at the planet Arlia. A purple energy beam issues from his right hand.

3. The beam hits Arlia and the planet explodes. It is destroyed so completely that the debris we see is dust-sized when it's compared to Vegeta, a human-sized person.

Fine. It shows he destroyed a planet somehow. How does this exactly mean he fired 2e32 joules worth of energy at the target? (Hint: what is going to be the momentum of a 2e32 joule blast? And how much does Vegeta weigh?)

Vegeta points at Arlia. Arlia goes boom. Canon event, got it?

I'm questioning whether or not Vegeta actually PRODUCED the required amount of energy to blow up the planet, not that it actually occured.

Your happy little theory ignores the fact the FRIEZA HELD BACK. He even states: "Damn, I held back too much energy." IIRC, Frieza destroyed Namek's core, which initiated a chain reaction that destroyed the planet completely five minutes later.

Your counterargument ignores the fact that HAD it been a direct energy transfer event (the point I am disputing, you might remember), the planet should have blown up the very second the bolt struck. It would not have drilled down throught he crust, had a chain reaction, etc. This PROVES my point. Get it?

Vegeta points at Arlia. Arlia goes boom. Simple, isn't it?

Simple, yes. Quantitative analysis? No.

Vegeta's destuctuion of Arlia was so complete that the larget ejecta seen is dust-sized.

And he was still sitting there, rather than being flung away from the planet at near-lightspeed. That doesnt strike you as being a problem?

[Connor MacLeod]

Alright fine, it takes roughly 1.261E+27 joules of energy to destroy the moon, which Roshi was able to do with a PL of roughly 139.

So it stands to chance that someone of say Vegeta, with a Pl of 18,000 is capable of 1.6329496402877697841726618705036e+32 joules of energy.

While Goku who had a max PL of 32,000 during the saiya jin arc was capable of 2.9030215827338129496402877697842e+32 joules of energy.

Goku on Namek without Kaiouken had a PL of 60,000 was capable of 5.4431654676258992805755395683453e+32 joules of energy.

With Kaiouken, his PL was at 180,000, at which point he was capable of 1.6329496402877697841726618705036e+33 joules of energy.

When he first fought Freezer without the Kaiouken his PL was 375,000, so he was capable of 3.4019784172661870503597122302158e+33 of energy.

While SSJ Goku at a PL of 15,000,000 was capable of 1.3607913669064748201438848920863e+35 joules of energy.

If we could figure out how much joules it takes to blow up a solar system, we could figure out Ultra Perfect Cell's PL.

But I think I satisfied your requirements.

BTW all calcuations used the lower limit for destroying the moon.

No it doesn't. If you're going to bother analyzing the scene, consider all the implications of destroying a moon (IE where the energy goes, debris hitting the planet, how the loss of a large planetary body like the moon would affect the planet, etc.)

You might also consider dealing with the momentum issues of such a tremendous blast of energy, and why Roshi was still in place.

I'm interested in an actual analysis, not a meaningless generation of the biggest numbers possible. (hint: figure out how much momentum is in a 2e32 joule blast, consider how that momentum is going to act on a human-scale mass.)

[Connor MacLeod]

We saw it happen in the cartoons, therefore it did happen. Suspension of disbelief, remember?

Red herring. I never said that it didnt happen. I was challenging the fanboy argument that because it happened, it means it was a DET event, although this appears to have slipped under your eagle eye.

Now, there are cases in other stories where the storyline implies one explanation that is scientifically implausible, whereas there is a scientifically plausible explanation that is not obvious at first but is actually consistent with the observed evidence. (e.g. power figures for Clan mechs, IIRC; the story seems to imply high-powered weapons but based on the fact that none of the mechs fall over when firing and their weapons only damage other mechs, another plausible explanation is that the mech weapons are weak); however this is simply not the case here--

We SEE the original form Buu fire a normal attack blast at the earth. (such blasts cn be flung at multiple shots per second).
We SEE everyone gasp in horror and say the earth is goner (OBVIOUSLY BECAUSE OF THE BLAST)
We SEE Goku desperately trying to save the people around him in time by getting a hold on everybody and then teleporting to King Kai's planet.
We SEE Earth blowing apart.

Seeing is only part of it. It has to be properly analyzed as well. Your analogy regarding the mechs is flawed btw, since the magnitude of the energy involved is vastly out of proportion to most mechas, and a mecha is typically more massive than a human. (besides which, you clearly missed the point as to why I mentioned momentum)

As a brilliant start to your 'scientific investigation of DBZ' , are you going to try to argue that

1. Buu did not destroy the earth
or
2. The earth was not destroyed?

No, I'm going to argue that it was not a direct energy transfer event. Nice Strawman, by the way.

Perhaps you are going to claim (1) by saying that someone planted a multi-zillion ton antimatter bomb and set it to go off the moment Buu's blast hit the earth?

Maybe you're going to resort to more strawman tactics to debate me.
Either that or res ort to even more longer-winded responses and hope I get bored.

Now, there ARE ways to rationalize the lack of recoil. For one thing, it's obvious that it is an ENERGY blast and not some kind of KE projectile--did you consider that perhaps the damage has something to do with other forms of energy transfer like, oh I don't know, HEAT???

Matter and energy are interchangable (hint relatavistic mass). Not only that, but large quantities of energy do in FACT have momentum. This is well discussed on the website regarding shields, but obviously you never bothered to figure that out. (and we're dealing with such a tremendously massive quantity of energy there would be A HELL of alot of momentum.)

'DBZ fanboys' don't ordinarily tax their brains much because they shouldn't really need to--don't you think that "x character can destroy planets - he wins!" is quite a convincing argument already if the statement can be proved true by direct observation of the show?

Its only a convincing argument if you're totally uninterested in making an actual effort at presenting an intelligent debate. (In your case, it obviously works quite well for you.)

[JodoForce]

Ah. So your argument goes: SSJs blow up planets, but it's not done using a direct energy transfer, so it can't hurt anyone.

Nice try.

If you throw a hand grenade that's going to blow up a continent, does your body get flung backwards at supersonic speeds?

I KNOW that if you fire a laser with enough power to blow up a planet you are going to be flung back like that. If you fire a slow moving bolt of plasma at 9 jillion kelvins with a containment mechanism that releases on impact, which causes its destruction of the earth by heat, does that fling you back at supersonic speeds too?

OK, suppose Goku produces his destructive power using some exotic chain reaction that requires much less input energy than output energy. Show me ONE instance where this chain reaction doesn't manage to initiate on some exotic matter, never mind ordinary people. It doesn't matter that you need an exotic chain reaction for your weapon to work if the chain reaction works on absolutely EVERYTHING!

[JodoForce]

hmm wait, maybe the heat would cause an increase of momentum too... yeah it should

But I've already addressed the issue of momentum:

Even IF the energy of the blasts were all delivered in KE (there is no reason to think this is so) remember that these fighters are able to propel themselves at great speeds (lightspeed and beyond apparently, if some of the others' claims are to be believed) through air and space--they could be just using their movement ability to counteract the recoil of their blasts.

[Connor MacLeod]

Ah. So your argument goes: SSJs blow up planets, but it's not done using a direct energy transfer, so it can't hurt anyone.

Nice try.

No, its some unknown mechanism because the effects are inconsistent with a DET event.

If you throw a hand grenade that's going to blow up a continent, does your body get flung backwards at supersonic speeds?

yet another bad analogy. If you fire a gun, your arm suffers recoil. Guess which is closer to an energy discharge, if you're so on top of things.

I KNOW that if you fire a laser with enough power to blow up a planet you are going to be flung back like that. If you fire a slow moving bolt of plasma at 9 jillion kelvins with a containment mechanism that releases on impact, which causes its destruction of the earth by heat, does that fling you back at supersonic speeds too?

Try figuring out how many kilograms of matter 2e32 joules of energy are worth before shooting your mouth off like you know something. Mass and energy are interchangable. If you ADD energy to something, particularily in large quantities, it will become more massive (IE relatavistic mass when an object approaches the spee dof light.) And recall that momentum is MASS times velocity. Increasing one automatically increases the momentum.

OK, suppose Goku produces his destructive power using some exotic chain reaction that requires much less input energy than output energy.
Show me ONE instance where this chain reaction doesn't manage to initiate on some exotic matter, never mind ordinary people. It doesn't matter that you need an exotic chain reaction for your weapon to work if the chain reaction works on absolutely EVERYTHING!

Red herring. We're talking about destroying planets, not affecting others.

By the way, there is a precedent suggesting that planet-destruction is NOT a DET Event - that being Frieza attempting to destroy Namek.

[JodoForce]

In fact their energy blasts HAVE been shown to have great kinetic energy: (I take back the earlier comments about no momentum)

[quote=Eagle299 from the other DBZ thread]
One power feat for the anime that often gets neglected; Goku was traveling to Namek in his modified Saiyan Space pod. His ship was damaged an went a bit off course. Right into a star. Goku used a Kamehameha to blow his ship away from the star's gravity. He was not only fighting the gravity of the star, but also the warp speed velocity of his own ship.
[/quote]

So to answer your question, yes, their energy blasts are shown to have insane amounts of recoil. They obviously have a way of counteracting it in normal fighting conditions, e.g. by using their movement ability.

[JodoForce]

If you throw a hand grenade that's going to blow up a continent, does your body get flung backwards at supersonic speeds?

yet another bad analogy. If you fire a gun, your arm suffers recoil. Guess which is closer to an energy discharge, if you're so on top of things.

It is possible that their energy blasts detonate on impact like a hand grenade.

Try figuring out how many kilograms of matter 2e32 joules of energy are worth before shooting your mouth off like you know something. Mass and energy are interchangable. If you ADD energy to something, particularily in large quantities, it will become more massive (IE relatavistic mass when an object approaches the spee dof light.) And recall that momentum is MASS times velocity. Increasing one automatically increases the momentum.

I have conceded that the heat energy would be manifested in momentum too. Let's move on and enough with the ad hominems already.

OK, suppose Goku produces his destructive power using some exotic chain reaction that requires much less input energy than output energy.
Show me ONE instance where this chain reaction doesn't manage to initiate on some exotic matter, never mind ordinary people. It doesn't matter that you need an exotic chain reaction for your weapon to work if the chain reaction works on absolutely EVERYTHING!

Red herring. We're talking about destroying planets, not affecting others.

By the way, there is a precedent suggesting that planet-destruction is NOT a DET Event - that being Frieza attempting to destroy Namek.

On the contrary, it is very relevant because the blasts they use to destroy planets are NOT SHOWN TO BE ANY DIFFERENT FROM THOSE USED TO ATTACK PEOPLE AND OTHER OBJECTS. If a chain reaction is used to destroy planets, it can be assumed that the same chain reaction is used from killing people to blowing up mountains.

Also, there were many planet destroying events in DBZ and they have different properties. Frieza's destruction of Namek was a delayed 'chain reaction' because he held back. In other cases where the planet blew up immediately, can you say for sure that those were also chain reaction events? Those WERE consistent with a simple DET event. Can the same type of chain reaction as in Namek be used to destroy a planet in an instant flash?

[JodoForce]

On the contrary, it is very relevant because the blasts they use to destroy planets are NOT SHOWN TO BE ANY DIFFERENT FROM THOSE USED TO ATTACK PEOPLE AND OTHER OBJECTS. If a chain reaction is used to destroy planets, it can be assumed that the same chain reaction is used from killing people to blowing up mountains.

Also, there were many planet destroying events in DBZ and they have different properties. Frieza's destruction of Namek was a delayed 'chain reaction' because he held back. In other cases where the planet blew up immediately, can you say for sure that those were also chain reaction events? Those WERE consistent with a simple DET event. Can the same type of chain reaction as in Namek be used to destroy a planet in an instant flash?

Wait a minute this doesn't sound right...

For the first paragraph, an extra condition is that the cause of the chain reaction be withing the energy blast itself, not the core of the planet. Since the core of the Earth is not known to be a potential source for a multi-petaton explosion, we can assume the former.

The second paragraph applies if you have somehow already suceeded in arguing for the latter.

[ShinjiGohan]

No it doesn't.

What are you refuting? Define "it" please.

If you're going to bother analyzing the scene, consider all the implications of destroying a moon (IE where the energy goes, debris hitting the planet, how the loss of a large planetary body like the moon would affect the planet, etc.)

I gave you the output that these characters were capable of (LL mind you). For the sake of this topic. If you choose to ignore the numbers then your ignorent.

You might also consider dealing with the momentum issues of such a tremendous blast of energy, and why Roshi was still in place.

Look at him, he clearly is pushed back, but he was able to hold his ground. You know someone that can use ki in such a way could use their ki to comphensate for the change in momentem you know.

I'm interested in an actual analysis, not a meaningless generation of the biggest numbers possible. (hint: figure out how much momentum is in a 2e32 joule blast, consider how that momentum is going to act on a human-scale mass.)

hint I have you the LL numbers, if you wanted me to give you the UL numbers I could do that too. but if you're going to complain about the numbers, then do the work yourself.

[JodoForce]

Back on topic:

The DS superlaser is never going to hit Goku. I mean DS2 can only target capital ships, and the DS can't even do that. If Goku can survive shots from the other turbolasers (not to say they can definitely hit him either) the DS is toast.

[The Drunkard Kid]

I'm wondering why only DBZ seems to be stupid because their quasi-mystical abilities don't match our understanding of the laws of physics for the real world (1), wheras no other universe is required to, say, prove why precognition isn't in violation of causality, or how an unnamed Emperor must have a few dozen nuclear reactors strapped to the inside of his rectum so he can generate enough energy to wipe out a 17.8 kilometer long, heavily shielded ship without obliterating himself from the recoil...

[The Drunkard Kid]

And I forgot to put in the footnote...


(1) And what is probably the one, unalterable, universal Law of Physics is that it is *impossible* to break the true Laws of Physics, since Physics is the study of understanding how reality works. If something happens, then by default, it follows the laws of physics (even if it's only the subset for their own universe), be it a black hole, or a ki-blast. If our understanding of the laws of physics says that what they did isn't possible, then the fault lies within us not being omniscient.

IOW, unless you want to say that Force Users aren't capable of doing what they've been shown to do with the force since it *also* generates energy out of nowhere with no side effects, then the argument should not be directed at *any* other medium either, unless the event in question is out of character for the character or universe in question, which would mean that it is just sloppy writing/art (Ie: Goku having trouble with 40 ton weights, Batman blocking a bullet with his forehead and just grimacing, Thor being taken down by a normal bullet to the forehead, Wolverine lasting .0002 seconds against an angry Hulk, etc...).

[consequences]

The reason DBZ is stupid, hmm, maybe because Dende and Kibbito, with a power level of jack shit, can heal and restore to full power people with 50 gajillion times their energy.
The reason why Roshi destroying the moon wasn't DET? The same reason Endor should be a lifeless wasteland. Detonation velocity< Earth's gravity, most of the moon's matter falls on the Earth in short order. Detonation velocity> Earth's Gravity, the surface of the Earth facing the Moon is nearly instantly slagged. The moon was destroyed, yes, destroyed by DET, hell no.
Oh, and Goku's maximum continuous acceleration at one point on the way to Namek was no greater than 1kps/s.