Episodes that have blatant racism in them..

[Spacebeard]

Racism? In ST? Surely not! /sarcasm

"We were warned about Ferengi at the Academy." Kim to Quark in the VOY premiere episode. Without the context of the 'warning' this doesn't necessarily say much, but when combined with other Federation officer's opinions you can safely assume that the warning went beyond the mere "keep your wallets and wits about you" that the line above implies.

I think you took that out of context. I believe he was saying the Ferengi can't be trusted due to the fact that they'll fuck you over at any chance they get. I ask you, is this not true?

Replace "Ferengi" with "Jew" in Kim's statement and in your post. Still think it isn't racist?

If they had been warned about "shady snake-oil salesmen", that would be fine. Being warned that all Ferengi are shady snake-oil salesmen is racist. The fact that other episodes bear this out to be true is further proof that Star Trek itself is racist, not just characters within it.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Racism? In ST? Surely not! /sarcasm

"We were warned about Ferengi at the Academy." Kim to Quark in the VOY premiere episode. Without the context of the 'warning' this doesn't necessarily say much, but when combined with other Federation officer's opinions you can safely assume that the warning went beyond the mere "keep your wallets and wits about you" that the line above implies.

I think you took that out of context. I believe he was saying the Ferengi can't be trusted due to the fact that they'll fuck you over at any chance they get. I ask you, is this not true?

Replace "Ferengi" with "Jew" in Kim's statement and in your post. Still think it isn't racist?

Yes it would be. However, replacing words to prove a point is only good for simple things. This is a complex. The Jews are NOTHING like the Ferengi, therefore, your example falls flat on its face.

Replace Jew with Borg, is it racist?

Use some common sense, please.

If they had been warned about "shady snake-oil salesmen", that would be fine. Being warned that all Ferengi are shady snake-oil salesmen is racist. The fact that other episodes bear this out to be true is further proof that Star Trek itself is racist, not just characters within it.

Not only are they shady snake-oil salesmen, but they've been known to attack ships for profit. The Ferengi are dangerous, and that was the meaning behind that statement.

I think a lot of people are digging for racism here. Shit, sometimes I swear people that dig like this would call someone a racist just because the color of their house is white.

[Spacebeard]

I think you took that out of context. I believe he was saying the Ferengi can't be trusted due to the fact that they'll fuck you over at any chance they get. I ask you, is this not true?

Replace "Ferengi" with "Jew" in Kim's statement and in your post. Still think it isn't racist?

Yes it would be. However, replacing words to prove a point is only good for simple things. This is a complex. The Jews are NOTHING like the Ferengi, therefore, your example falls flat on its face.

No, the Jews are nothing like the Ferengi. But saying that all Ferengi behave in a certain way is EXACTLY THE SAME as saying that all Jews behave in a certain way. It's an assertion that race determines all traits including behaviour, which is the dictionary definition of racism.

Replace Jew with Borg, is it racist?

The Borg aren't a race. They're a collective consisting of innocent people who have been kidnapped and assimilated into a hive mind. In the case of the Borg, they actually do all think and act alike. But this is not the case for any actual race. Asserting that all members of a particular race act alike is racist. This isn't so hard to understand.

Use some common sense, please.

Use your brain, please. "hehe lol jewz r not frengi" doesn't disprove my point. "Warning" someone that all members of a particular race will always be cheats is clear-cut racism.

If they had been warned about "shady snake-oil salesmen", that would be fine. Being warned that all Ferengi are shady snake-oil salesmen is racist. The fact that other episodes bear this out to be true is further proof that Star Trek itself is racist, not just characters within it.

Not only are they shady snake-oil salesmen, but they've been known to attack ships for profit. The Ferengi are dangerous, and that was the meaning behind that statement.

SOME Ferengi are shady snake-oil salesmen, and SOME have attacked ships for profit. Dr. Reyga, for one, was neither a pirate nor a con-man. Yet the Federation scientists didn't trust him, becuase "everyone knows Ferengi are all scam artists". The assumption that a set of big Ferengi ears makes a man a cheating scoundrel is blatant racism according to the DICTIONARY DEFINITION I posted above.

I think a lot of people are digging for racism here. Shit, sometimes I swear people that dig like this would call someone a racist just because the color of their house is white.

The point of this thread is to showcase examples in Star Trek where either the characters or the writers (or both) have the belief that race determines all other traits, such as behavior and morality. This is racism by the dictionary definition, like I said.

The people who are "digging for racism", if you ask me, are the people who say that Star Wars is racist because Jar Jar reminds them of a Jamaican or the Neimoidians reminds them of Asians.

[Kamakazie Sith]

No, the Jews are nothing like the Ferengi. But saying that all Ferengi behave in a certain way is EXACTLY THE SAME as saying that all Jews behave in a certain way. It's an assertion that race determines all traits including behaviour, which is the dictionary definition of racism.

Did they say that? I don't think so. What they did do was warn them about Ferengi culture because they have shown themselves to be dangerous. They probably do the same about shore leave w/ Klingons. They're not accusing the whole race of being this way, at least not that I've seen but they are saying that the culture has demonstrated itself to be this way. When military members get deployed to other countries they are warned about the dangers that the local culture may pose.

So are they warning Starfleet cadets about the dangers of the Ferengi race, or the Ferengi culture?

The Borg aren't a race. They're a collective consisting of innocent people who have been kidnapped and assimilated into a hive mind. In the case of the Borg, they actually do all think and act alike. But this is not the case for any actual race. Asserting that all members of a particular race act alike is racist. This isn't so hard to understand.

Quite true.

Use your brain, please. "hehe lol jewz r not frengi" doesn't disprove my point. "Warning" someone that all members of a particular race will always be cheats is clear-cut racism.

Did they do this? From what I've seen, they haven't.

SOME Ferengi are shady snake-oil salesmen, and SOME have attacked ships for profit. Dr. Reyga, for one, was neither a pirate nor a con-man. Yet the Federation scientists didn't trust him, becuase "everyone knows Ferengi are all scam artists". The assumption that a set of big Ferengi ears makes a man a cheating scoundrel is blatant racism according to the DICTIONARY DEFINITION I posted above.

No, they didn't trust him because Ferengi aren't known for their contributions to science. Did they actually say "We don't trust him because he's Ferengi and they're all scam artists"?

The point of this thread is to showcase examples in Star Trek where either the characters or the writers (or both) have the belief that race determines all other traits, such as behavior and morality. This is racism by the dictionary definition, like I said.

I think you're confusing the traits of a race with the traditions of culture. That's what Starfleet was warning their cadets about. The traditions of the Ferengi culture, which put profit above all else.

The people who are "digging for racism", if you ask me, are the people who say that Star Wars is racist because Jar Jar reminds them of a Jamaican or the Neimoidians reminds them of Asians.

Yes, that would be digging as well.

[Spacebeard]

No, the Jews are nothing like the Ferengi. But saying that all Ferengi behave in a certain way is EXACTLY THE SAME as saying that all Jews behave in a certain way. It's an assertion that race determines all traits including behaviour, which is the dictionary definition of racism.

Did they say that? I don't think so. What they did do was warn them about Ferengi culture because they have shown themselves to be dangerous. They probably do the same about shore leave w/ Klingons. They're not accusing the whole race of being this way, at least not that I've seen but they are saying that the culture has demonstrated itself to be this way. When military members get deployed to other countries they are warned about the dangers that the local culture may pose.

So are they warning Starfleet cadets about the dangers of the Ferengi race, or the Ferengi culture?

Star Trek generally doesn't make a distinction between the two. The Star Trek writers and Star Trek characters all seem to believe that someone's race inevitably determines their behaviours and values. See all the "controversy" over Nog joining Starfleet, or Worf's insistence that Alexander "honor his heritage".

Use your brain, please. "hehe lol jewz r not frengi" doesn't disprove my point. "Warning" someone that all members of a particular race will always be cheats is clear-cut racism.

Did they do this? From what I've seen, they haven't.

We have many examples of characters on Star Trek, including both Federation citizens and Ferengi, assuming that all Ferengi are inevitably destined to be dodgy businessmen and cannot succeed at any other endeavour. From the other thread on Federation racism, we know that the Federation scientists in "Suspicions" dismissed Dr. Reyga solely because of his race, and that Dr. Reyga himself said that a Ferengi scientist was a "contradiction". Nog was said to be going against his heritage by joining Starfleet. Quark and company were baffled and amazed by the sight of a skilled Ferengi mercenary in "The Magnificent Ferengi".

SOME Ferengi are shady snake-oil salesmen, and SOME have attacked ships for profit. Dr. Reyga, for one, was neither a pirate nor a con-man. Yet the Federation scientists didn't trust him, becuase "everyone knows Ferengi are all scam artists". The assumption that a set of big Ferengi ears makes a man a cheating scoundrel is blatant racism according to the DICTIONARY DEFINITION I posted above.

No, they didn't trust him because Ferengi aren't known for their contributions to science. Did they actually say "We don't trust him because he's Ferengi and they're all scam artists"?

Saying that "Ferengi aren't known for their contributions to science" is the same thing. It's saying that all Ferengi are somehow predisposed towards business and against science and other endeavours. And Beverley made it clear that the scientists dismissed him based only on his race. Quote borrowed from the other thread:

BEVERLY: That's why I went to the Altine Conference... to hear the latest bio-physical theories. Maybe find a new area of research. And that's where I met Doctor Reyga... nobody would listen to him – just because he was a Ferengi. They all but jeered him off the stage...

Emphasis mine.

The point of this thread is to showcase examples in Star Trek where either the characters or the writers (or both) have the belief that race determines all other traits, such as behavior and morality. This is racism by the dictionary definition, like I said.

I think you're confusing the traits of a race with the traditions of culture. That's what Starfleet was warning their cadets about. The traditions of the Ferengi culture, which put profit above all else.

It's the immutable tying of race to culture that makes these examples racist. The constant talk of Spock and Torres "struggling" and "being torn" between their "two cultures", for instance. Nog having to overcome "his heritage" to join Starfleet. It's also, as discussed on the main site, where a lot of real-world racism comes from: the assumption that all blacks, or Asians, or whatever, are somehow inescapably tied to an "African culture" or "Asian culture" that makes them always behave in certain ways.

[Sharp-kun]

The TNG episode "The Drumhead" hinged substantially on the racial background of one Simon Tarses, Crewman First Class, medical technician. On his application form he had claimed that his paternal grandfather was a Vulcan. He was afraid that revealing that he, otherwise human, was in fact genetically one quarter Romulan, would have resulted in his being refused entry into Starfleet's enlisted ranks.

I would be hesitant to call that racisim.

1) The guy did lie on his form. He admits this himself.

2) The Romulans are not on best terms with the Feds. The possibility of a Romulan mole infliltrating the ranks is a possibility. The fact that someone lied to hide the fact that he had relations with them would obviousy sound alarm bells in anyones head.

3) What if he had just told the truth? Would he have been overly discriminated against then? I wouldn't call a few background checks unfair here, given the relationship between the two powers, but would he have been rejected immediatly?


Granted I haven't seen the ep in years, but the lines posted here don't set me that much against the Feds here.

[StarshipTitanic]

I would be hesitant to call that racisim.

Do you behave exactly like your paternal grandfather? Considering that the
Romulan married a human, I doubt he was very big on being evil.

[Spacebeard]

I would be hesitant to call that racisim.

Do you behave exactly like your paternal grandfather? Considering that the
Romulan married a human, I doubt he was very big on being evil.

I think what he (and me, too, a few posts up on the first page) was trying to say was that it's quite possible the crewman in question was in trouble more for lying on his application (and then again to Starfleet investigators) than merely for being descended from a Romulan.

In other words, whether or not this situation is an example of racial discrimination depends on whether or not the crewman was right in believing that he needed to lie about his grandfather in order to be accepted. If Starfleet would have refused to allow someone with a Romulan grandfather to enlist, that is racial discrimination. If he only got in trouble because of lying about it, however, that is merely quite understandable concern about the trustworthiness of military personnel with potential access to sensitive information, equipment, etc.

[Dark Sider]

Saying that "Ferengi aren't known for their contributions to science" is the same thing. It's saying that all Ferengi are somehow predisposed towards business and against science and other endeavours.

Not necessarily, especially if it is generally true. Saying, "Black children are not known to come from stable households. They typically come from broken homes and deal with incarceration, drugs, and crime moreso than any other child" would be a statement of fact based on statisical evidence and would hardly be racist IMO. So, out of curiousity if I know that statisically many black children have a harder time growing up (dealing with drugs and crime in their environment) and I come across a sucessful black man and say "It must have been hard for you as a kid, dealing with all that crap" when in fact he/she was born in a wealthy black family in suburbia, private school, etc etc. Would I be racist... simply ignorant of his personal background...or are they one in the same?

IMO, to call that racist when it is backed by statistical evidence is awfully weak when compared to someone who says, "Niggers are worthless. Those black skinned devils should not marry white women!"

[Uraniun235]

I would be hesitant to call that racisim.

Do you behave exactly like your paternal grandfather? Considering that the
Romulan married a human, I doubt he was very big on being evil.

A little off-topic, but who said he married her?

[TheDarkling]

I think what he (and me, too, a few posts up on the first page) was trying to say was that it's quite possible the crewman in question was in trouble more for lying on his application (and then again to Starfleet investigators) than merely for being descended from a Romulan.

In other words, whether or not this situation is an example of racial discrimination depends on whether or not the crewman was right in believing that he needed to lie about his grandfather in order to be accepted. If Starfleet would have refused to allow someone with a Romulan grandfather to enlist, that is racial discrimination. If he only got in trouble because of lying about it, however, that is merely quite understandable concern about the trustworthiness of military personnel with potential access to sensitive information, equipment, etc.

TARSES
And now... it's done, isn't it?
My career in Starfleet is
finished...

PICARD
Not if you aren't guilty.

TARSES
It doesn't matter. I lied on my
application... and that mistake
will be with me for the rest of
my life.

Both of them seem to think that the lie is the primary factor in him getting kicked out.

[Sharp-kun]

Do you behave exactly like your paternal grandfather? Considering that the
Romulan married a human, I doubt he was very big on being evil.

How do they know that he married her? What if she was abducted and this is all some Tal Shiar plot?

The fact that the guy was trying to hide the fact that he had ties to the Romulans doesn't look good for him, regardless of his reasons. He has access to important tech, and has covered up the fact that he has relations with a power that is hostile towards the Federation.

[Spacebeard]

Saying that "Ferengi aren't known for their contributions to science" is the same thing. It's saying that all Ferengi are somehow predisposed towards business and against science and other endeavours.

Not necessarily, especially if it is generally true. Saying, "Black children are not known to come from stable households. They typically come from broken homes and deal with incarceration, drugs, and crime moreso than any other child" would be a statement of fact based on statisical evidence and would hardly be racist IMO. So, out of curiousity if I know that statisically many black children have a harder time growing up (dealing with drugs and crime in their environment) and I come across a sucessful black man and say "It must have been hard for you as a kid, dealing with all that crap" when in fact he/she was born in a wealthy black family in suburbia, private school, etc etc. Would I be racist... simply ignorant of his personal background...or are they one in the same?

You'd be making an assumption about his personal background just based on the color of his skin. To use the example brought up on the main site, it'd be just like assuming that an Asian man must be fresh off the boat from China.

Either way, though, that's not analogous to the situation from the TNG episode being discussed. Dr. Crusher said unambiguously that Dr. Reyga was dismissed out of hand, "practically jeered off the stage" by the Federation scientists, "just because he was a Ferengi". Your analogy would work only if the successful black man were being jeered off the stage at a business conference or something, because "everyone knows blacks aren't known for their business acumen."

[Kamakazie Sith]

We have many examples of characters on Star Trek, including both Federation citizens and Ferengi, assuming that all Ferengi are inevitably destined to be dodgy businessmen and cannot succeed at any other endeavour. From the other thread on Federation racism, we know that the Federation scientists in "Suspicions" dismissed Dr. Reyga solely because of his race, and that Dr. Reyga himself said that a Ferengi scientist was a "contradiction". Nog was said to be going against his heritage by joining Starfleet. Quark and company were baffled and amazed by the sight of a skilled Ferengi mercenary in "The Magnificent Ferengi".

Agreed, the group of scientist was racist against Dr. Reyga.

How is Nog going against his heritage racist? How is Quark and company being baffled and amazed by something that is uncommon racist?

How does that fit within the definition of racism?

---------------------------------------
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
---------------------------------------

Saying that "Ferengi aren't known for their contributions to science" is the same thing. It's saying that all Ferengi are somehow predisposed towards business and against science and other endeavours. And Beverley made it clear that the scientists dismissed him based only on his race. Quote borrowed from the other thread:

The scientists were indeed bias towards Dr. Reyga.

It's the immutable tying of race to culture that makes these examples racist. The constant talk of Spock and Torres "struggling" and "being torn" between their "two cultures", for instance. Nog having to overcome "his heritage" to join Starfleet. It's also, as discussed on the main site, where a lot of real-world racism comes from: the assumption that all blacks, or Asians, or whatever, are somehow inescapably tied to an "African culture" or "Asian culture" that makes them always behave in certain ways.

So if I said Klingons are a warrior race then that would be racist? Racism certainly exists in Star Trek, however, some of these examples are stretching it quite a bit in my opinion. However, like Darth Wong says maybe you really do have to experience it to understand it.

[Kamakazie Sith]

You'd be making an assumption about his personal background just based on the color of his skin. To use the example brought up on the main site, it'd be just like assuming that an Asian man must be fresh off the boat from China.

Either way, though, that's not analogous to the situation from the TNG episode being discussed. Dr. Crusher said unambiguously that Dr. Reyga was dismissed out of hand, "practically jeered off the stage" by the Federation scientists, "just because he was a Ferengi". Your analogy would work only if the successful black man were being jeered off the stage at a business conference or something, because "everyone knows blacks aren't known for their business acumen."

Doesn't Dr. Reyga indicate just that later on with his "A Ferengi scientist is almost a contradiction in terms."

[Spacebeard]

Agreed, the group of scientist was racist against Dr. Reyga.

How is Nog going against his heritage racist? How is Quark and company being baffled and amazed by something that is uncommon racist?

How does that fit within the definition of racism?

---------------------------------------
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
---------------------------------------

The key part of this definition is "the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability". For anyone to insist that Nog shouldn't join Starfleet because it's not "the Ferengi way" is racism: it's a statement that Nog's Ferengi blood somehow makes him a natural businessman and disinclines him from a military career. If Nog had been raised on Ferenginar with no contact with other cultures, this might make a certain amount of sense. But he was raised on DS9, a meeting point of many different cultures, and his best friend was Jake Sisko, son of a Starfleet officer. Any suggestion, therefore, that Nog is somehow ill-suited to a career in Starfleet because of "Ferengi culture" is racist, because Nog probably didn't have much more exposure to "Ferengi culture" than anyone else on DS9.

The same goes for Quark being amazed by the sight of a Ferengi mercenary. He seems to think that the Ferengi race as a whole is ill-suited to fighting, which is racist by the definition above.

So if I said Klingons are a warrior race then that would be racist? Racism certainly exists in Star Trek, however, some of these examples are stretching it quite a bit in my opinion. However, like Darth Wong says maybe you really do have to experience it to understand it.

Portraying ALL Klingons as caricatures of "honorable warriors", as the Star Trek writers did in late TNG and DS9, is racist. It shows that they are unable or unwilling to think of the aliens they created in any terms other than as walking stereotypes.

[Kamakazie Sith]

[
The key part of this definition is "the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability". For anyone to insist that Nog shouldn't join Starfleet because it's not "the Ferengi way" is racism: it's a statement that Nog's Ferengi blood somehow makes him a natural businessman and disinclines him from a military career. If Nog had been raised on Ferenginar with no contact with other cultures, this might make a certain amount of sense. But he was raised on DS9, a meeting point of many different cultures, and his best friend was Jake Sisko, son of a Starfleet officer. Any suggestion, therefore, that Nog is somehow ill-suited to a career in Starfleet because of "Ferengi culture" is racist, because Nog probably didn't have much more exposure to "Ferengi culture" than anyone else on DS9.

Don't you have to take the whole definition, instead of just part of it? It does say "AND that a particular race is superior to others" in there. Is that part just meaningless?

Portraying ALL Klingons as caricatures of "honorable warriors", as the Star Trek writers did in late TNG and DS9, is racist. It shows that they are unable or unwilling to think of the aliens they created in any terms other than as walking stereotypes.

I think it protrays them as warriors, but not in the classic sense. For example the Klingon lawyer. He craved battle, but a different kind. Perhaps a Klingon chef craves the battle of making a challenging meal.

I think I've just proved that I don't understand everything about racism. A lot of these things seem too vague or could have other intentions behind it. Either way I've learned something here.

[Master of Ossus]

KS, anytime someone puts restrictions on what someone else can or cannot do because of their race they are being racist. To prevent Nog from joining SF because of his race is a racist action.

[Kamakazie Sith]

KS, anytime someone puts restrictions on what someone else can or cannot do because of their race they are being racist. To prevent Nog from joining SF because of his race is a racist action.

You mean his uncle wanting to place restrictions on him? *Which I agree would be racist* I don't think Starfleet itself had any objections.

*Edit

[Spacebeard]

Don't you have to take the whole definition, instead of just part of it? It does say "AND that a particular race is superior to others" in there. Is that part just meaningless?

It's logically implied by the first part. If you believe that race determines ability, then you believe that one race can be superior to another race. Someone who believed that race determines ability but claimed that "the differences all balance out" would still judge individuals' abilities based on their race, therefore they would still be a racist.

I think it protrays them as warriors, but not in the classic sense. For example the Klingon lawyer. He craved battle, but a different kind. Perhaps a Klingon chef craves the battle of making a challenging meal.

The Klingon lawyer was actually one of the few things I liked about Enterprise. Even if the episode was a silly excuse to recreate scenes from ST VI, the lawyer's complaints about the warrior caste's rise to power were one of the few times the writers ever acknowledged the existence of non-warrior Klingons. It shows that at least one writer was aware of the caricature the Klingons had become in TNG and DS9, and was trying to create some kind of explanation for it.

[Kamakazie Sith]

It's logically implied by the first part. If you believe that race determines ability, then you believe that one race can be superior to another race. Someone who believed that race determines ability but claimed that "the differences all balance out" would still judge individuals' abilities based on their race, therefore they would still be a racist.

Yeah, I guess it is clear as day. Very well, concede.

The Klingon lawyer was actually one of the few things I liked about Enterprise. Even if the episode was a silly excuse to recreate scenes from ST VI, the lawyer's complaints about the warrior caste's rise to power were one of the few times the writers ever acknowledged the existence of non-warrior Klingons. It shows that at least one writer was aware of the caricature the Klingons had become in TNG and DS9, and was trying to create some kind of explanation for it.

I was actually refering to the Klingon Lawyer from DS9. That's cool that they had one in Enterprise though.

[Dark Sider]

Saying that "Ferengi aren't known for their contributions to science" is the same thing. It's saying that all Ferengi are somehow predisposed towards business and against science and other endeavours.

Not necessarily, especially if it is generally true. Saying, "Black children are not known to come from stable households. They typically come from broken homes and deal with incarceration, drugs, and crime moreso than any other child" would be a statement of fact based on statisical evidence and would hardly be racist IMO. So, out of curiousity if I know that statisically many black children have a harder time growing up (dealing with drugs and crime in their environment) and I come across a sucessful black man and say "It must have been hard for you as a kid, dealing with all that crap" when in fact he/she was born in a wealthy black family in suburbia, private school, etc etc. Would I be racist... simply ignorant of his personal background...or are they one in the same?

You'd be making an assumption about his personal background just based on the color of his skin. To use the example brought up on the main site, it'd be just like assuming that an Asian man must be fresh off the boat from China.

I disagree and I will tell you why. I feel that many people on this board and in real life in general have taken racism and made is so broad that just about anything said against a specific group can be racist. Ask yourself, do you agree that the black community and their children in general face greater hardships than whites and asians? Hell, even Mexicans and Indians would fit into this category. If I assumed that my black coworker had a harder time growing up do you really think that is racist given what I know to be generally true of the black community and its hardships? I may be an ignorant assumptive fool, but I would argue that I would not be racist. It is IMO, that racism should carry a knowlingly malicious intent. You hate, discriminate etc against group X and actively do so. Sure, ignorance and racism do go hand and hand but I also believe they can be exclusive from one another. It is a very fuzzy line I will admit, but to instantly declare racism has made it difficult for a great multitude to know where racism is and how to put a stop to it.

Either way, though, that's not analogous to the situation from the TNG episode being discussed. Dr. Crusher said unambiguously that Dr. Reyga was dismissed out of hand, "practically jeered off the stage" by the Federation scientists, "just because he was a Ferengi". Your analogy would work only if the successful black man were being jeered off the stage at a business conference or something, because "everyone knows blacks aren't known for their business acumen."

True, although I think the statement in of itself is rather misleading. The whole "dialouge over substance." If you wanted to turn this into a giant cluster fuck, all we know for sure is how Beverly Crusher feels of what happened by her statement. Perhaps nobody listened because they felt he was interested in making a profit with whatever he was presenting. Maybe he said something to that effect. It is generally true that many if not all Ferengi are interested in profit regardless (an assumption on my part) of their chosen profession. But that point is rather moot because we have one line from Beverly Crusher...so should we take it at face value? I don't think so IMO.

[Mobiboros]

I disagree and I will tell you why. I feel that many people on this board and in real life in general have taken racism and made is so broad that just about anything said against a specific group can be racist. Ask yourself, do you agree that the black community and their children in general face greater hardships than whites and asians?.

No, I don't agree. The highest population of people on welfare in the US are white. What you are asserting is racist. You are making the assumption that a group statistic applies to the individual. You may not being doing it maliciously, but you are doing it.

Racism need not be 'malicious' to be harmful. Are all Asians good at science? Are all black people good at sports? Do all hispanic people have rhythm?

What Star Trek is doing is actually worse. They are making the assumption that not only does one culture act the same, but the entire race has no seperate subcultures in it. How many cultures exist on earth? hundreds? thousands? tens of thousands? How many cultures exist for vulcans? klingons? Ferengi? They are making the blatant assumption that the entire alien species will share the same values and culture as part of their genetic makeup.

And just out of curiousity, isn't Worfs son 'mixed race'? I thought his mother was part something else?

[LadyTevar]

And here I thought we would be talking about TOS, which was filmed during a time when Racism was first being seriously challenged, yet the only mention is McCoy's constant teasing/badgering of Spock.

That might have been racism, yes. However, I have friends who can't be in the same room without sniping at each other. Put-downs, insults, snide comments... I've heard them all, but let an outsider walk in and say something snide and the friends close ranks and verbally tear the outsider a new hole.
That's how I saw McCoy and Spock.


Now, Racism in TOS. Hrm... "Let This Be Your Last Battlefield" I believe was the title, where the fugitive had been chased across the galaxy by a planetary police officer for 'terrorist acts'. The fugitive claimed he was protesting racism. The police officer merely snorted, and claimed that it was as clear as the fugitive's face that he was a lesser race. What was wrong with the fugitive's face? He was half black, half white... but OPPOSITE of how the police officer's face looked. Therefore, they were lesser, and needed to be shown their place.

THAT is Racism. TOS handed it by showing neither one was right, and once they returned to the two's home planet, it was devastated by a war between the two races. The show ended with the two beaming down and chasing each other across the blighted landscape. Kirk left them there, becuase there was nothing he could do to save them or change their minds by then.

[LadyTevar]

Now. About the Klingons:

TOS Klingons were shown as devious, cunning little Gengis Kong war-leaders. They plan and excute a successful takeover of a planet, leaving Kirk and Spock trapped on it. It's not the Klingon's fault, nor the Fed's fault that the planet belonged to the Organians. Before the Organians reveal themselves, the Klingon Overlord was mostly friendly towards the 'merchant traders' Kirk and Spock posed as, and even prefered Kirk's open distrust to the "empty smiles" of the fleshform-Organians.

In "Trouble with Tribbles", the Klingons were shown to be masterful planners, planting a spy then distracting from him by having a ship show up as a visible threat. The barroom brawl would have happened in any port of call between two rival ships/nations. Yet, if the plan had worked, the Klingons would have left 'peacefully', and no one would ever have traced the deaths from the poisoned grain back to the Klingons.

"Day of the Dove" introduced the first mated Klingons. Even on an enemy ship, driven to hate and kill the Federation repeatedly, it was clear that the commander loved his mate. It made them more humane, more believable. Even his concern for his crew was equal to Kirk's, in his own fashion, something that TNG Klingons lost along the way.

Personally, I don't think the Klingons of TNG, DS9, or later could have worked with the Federation to stop the Emotion-Vampire/Entity that caused the "Day of the Dove" situation. The Dulak(sp) Sisters would have died first... repeatedly, since the Entity regenerated the fallen to fight again. Galroc (sp), the Grand Leader of the Klingon Race, wouldn't be able to either. He enjoyed taking down challengers, even when there was more important things to be done, as Worf found out. He simply seemed to enjoy fighting more than talking.

Is it racism or just bad writing? Or is it writing tinged with the idea that Klingons should be wholly one mind, one Culture, and that is all there is to them. Either way, the Klingons of the 'modern' series are far lesser than their flat-headed ancestors.

But that's Something They Don't Speak of With Outsiders.