Dominion vs. Borg

[Robert Walper]

The Borg spent the next year building a transwarp conduit that would open into the gamma quadrant, and eventually deployed the Valkyrie (captured SF intelligence ship)as their advanced scout for the express purpose of finding a changling and attempting its assimilation for the continued perfection of the collective. The encounter with the Jem'Hadar ship two years ago was the result, in which both ships were destroyed.

It's not enough that a single Federation destroyer blows up a Unimatrix and 1/6 of the Borg's transwarp network, now they're even using stolen Federation ships to do reconaissance. God I hate the way the Borg have been succesively declawed as they're fleshed out.

Well, it's a novel and therefore not canon. So it can be safely dismissed.

Besides, we know the Borg have probe class starships, quoted as equivalent to Voyager in firepower. Also, Borg spehre's have been referred to as scout class, and they can bitchslap Voyager easily. One withstood the combined firepower of an armada of some thirty Federation starships in STVOY "Endgame".

[brianeyci]

Man that did not happen.

Usually I side with you on Borg matters Walper, but what happened was that the sphere appeared. The thirty Federation ships didn't fire on the sphere at all. Voyager destroyed the sphere by firing at it with transphasic torpedoes.

The idea that the Federation ships would have opened fire as soon as the sphere appeared is a good one, unfortunately not supported by visuals. The Admiral could have been tactically inept, and the fleet could have been waiting for the Admiral's order to open fire. For example maybe the Admiral wanted for all ships to get in position to open up an alpha strike.

Besides, we get a continuous picture of the sphere with no cutscene IIRC. The sphere appears. We see Federation fleet. We see sphere again, and Voyager blows it apart. No time for the Federation fleet to have fired.

Brian

[Robert Walper]

Man that did not happen.

Usually I side with you on Borg matters Walper, but what happened was that the sphere appeared. The thirty Federation ships didn't fire on the sphere at all. Voyager destroyed the sphere by firing at it with transphasic torpedoes.

The idea that the Federation ships would have opened fire as soon as the sphere appeared is a good one, unfortunately not supported by visuals. The Admiral could have been tactically inept, and the fleet could have been waiting for the Admiral's order to open fire. For example maybe the Admiral wanted for all ships to get in position to open up an alpha strike.

Besides, we get a continuous picture of the sphere with no cutscene IIRC. The sphere appears. We see Federation fleet. We see sphere again, and Voyager blows it apart. No time for the Federation fleet to have fired.

Brian

Sorry Brian, I have the video clip. The fleet opens fire on the sphere a second after it exits the conduit. We see precisely five phaser hits and two torpedoe hits before the scene cuts. It changes to the bridge of Voyager where the crew does their little conversation piece, after which they then fire their transphasic torpedoes. The sphere starts to explode, and then the Admiral orders the fleet to "cease fire".

Edit: I have the video clip on hand for reference if need be (media player, 273 K), plus an edited screen cap showing how many starships were there.

[brianeyci]

Sorry Brian, I have the video clip. The fleet opens fire on the sphere a second after it exits the conduit. We see precisely five phaser hits and two torpedoe hits before the scene cuts. It changes to the bridge of Voyager where the crew does their little conversation piece, after which they then fire their transphasic torpedoes. The sphere starts to explode, and then the Admiral orders the fleet to "cease fire".

Five phaser and two torpedo hits is not the firepower of the Federation fleet. Although I admit, it is reasonable that if it cuts to the bridge of Voyager, the Federation fleet would have continually fired.

That is pretty impressive though. Federation ships are designed for alpha strike. We see several Galaxies in that fleet. Two spreads of torpedoes and ten to twelve phaser shots for the first seconds is reasonable, followed by a phaser shot every few seconds or more depending on the reload speed of photorps and if they divert warp power to the phasers which allows faster reload time.

The question would be how the sphere resists such an alpha strike. The Silence and I proposed that the Borg cube in ST:FC sustained most of its outer hull damage through an alpha strike before the Borg shields adapted to the frequencies and countermeasures. Queen has assimilated future Janeway's shuttle by now. Perhaps the sphere is not indicative of standard power of a sphere, but is beefed up because of future knowledge from Janeway's shuttle.

How large is an interceptor in comparison with a sphere? Voyager was tactically superior to an interceptor.

Brian

[Robert Walper]

Five phaser and two torpedo hits is not the firepower of the Federation fleet. Although I admit, it is reasonable that if it cuts to the bridge of Voyager, the Federation fleet would have continually fired.

Ships began opening firing on the sphere, making direct hits, and the sphere was closing towards the fleet. The scene cut is approximately 32 seconds long, and we have every reason to believe the fleet was continuing to open fire, and even intensifying it.

That is pretty impressive though. Federation ships are designed for alpha strike. We see several Galaxies in that fleet. Two spreads of torpedoes and ten to twelve phaser shots for the first seconds is reasonable, followed by a phaser shot every few seconds or more depending on the reload speed of photorps and if they divert warp power to the phasers which allows faster reload time.

Which suggests a undamaged Borg sphere can take a shitload of punishment. The Admiral did specify the fleet to "use all necessary force", so suggesting the fleet was gearing itself for a serious fight is hardly unreasonable, particularily since they know what enemy is going to come through. Go Borg superiority!

The question would be how the sphere resists such an alpha strike.

Typical adaptation and Borg shielding strength is the natural conclusion.

The Silence and I proposed that the Borg cube in ST:FC sustained most of its outer hull damage through an alpha strike before the Borg shields adapted to the frequencies and countermeasures. Queen has assimilated future Janeway's shuttle by now.

Iffy on the assimilation of the shuttle, unless you give the Borg more credit in speed than I do. The Queen was able to access future Janeway's mind for a brief period before the pathogen took effect, and that could have been enough to substantiate her claim she assimilated Janeway's armor technology.

Perhaps the sphere is not indicative of standard power of a sphere, but is beefed up because of future knowledge from Janeway's shuttle.

Given there's no visual evidence indicating the sphere is phyiscally different from any other, plus the fact the information obtained by the Queen was only minutes before, I find that assertion highly questionable. I find it very hard to believe a sphere would be expected to boost it's shield power by several orders of magnitude simply because they gained some info on transphasic torpedoes and an armor technology the sphere did not deploy.

How large is an interceptor in comparison with a sphere? Voyager was tactically superior to an interceptor.

Brian

I personally have to no scaling calcs on hand. Might want to check Graham Kennedy's site, he has such clacs IIRC.