Malcolm, polarize the hull plating...

[seanrobertson]

Because as we know the Borg don't overwhelm through sheer power but frequency adaption. Which is sorta hard to do against armor.

What lead you to that conclusion, Master Bruce?

Is there reason to think the Borg don't or cannot use "sheer power" (at least in the context of NDF-based weapons' effective firepower) and employ adaptive tricks to exploit their enemies' weaknesses? I don't have to tell you that the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

[Crazedwraith]

Maybe shields do a more effective job than the armor. If weapons power increases then the armor may not be sufficient and by that time shields have been developed that are.

Maybe. But that hull armor has been pretty damn effective so far. Last night's episode has the Enterprise sitting at point blank range below a Klingon Battlecruiser and taking direct hits on a weapon that had a really high refire rate for five minutes.

Brian

I seem to recall from a season one episode (the trip is preggers one) that a kingon battlecrusie could easily wipe out the NX-01 a warning shot send everyone flying IIRC.

[Batman]

Because as we know the Borg don't overwhelm through sheer power but frequency adaption. Which is sorta hard to do against armor.

What lead you to that conclusion, Master Bruce?
Is there reason to think the Borg don't or cannot use "sheer power" (at least in the context of NDF-based weapons' effective firepower) and employ adaptive tricks to exploit their enemies' weaknesses? I don't have to tell you that the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

Don't call me Master. You're not my butler.
If they had the firepower to go through Fed shields on brute force they wouldn't need to adapt. Furthermore, Fed countermeasures designed to counter frequency adaption should be useless, either.
Why are they going with the adaption route when they just can batter the shields down? To conserve reactant? And why do they KEEP doing it when it fails? Because they're stupid? Wait, that one actually makes sense...
Sean, I'm not trying to say that the Borg couldn't defeat Fed shielding the hard way. Hell, the Feds can.
The incredible ease with which they do most of the time however is entirely due to the adaption gimmick.

[seanrobertson]

Don't call me Master. You're not my butler.

Indeed. But I rather like the way you integrate that internal dialogue into your posts. It's charming

If they had the firepower to go through Fed shields on brute force they wouldn't need to adapt. Furthermore, Fed countermeasures designed to counter frequency adaption should be useless, either.
Why are they going with the adaption route when they just can batter the shields down? To conserve reactant? And why do they KEEP doing it when it fails? Because they're stupid? Wait, that one actually makes sense...
Sean, I'm not trying to say that the Borg couldn't defeat Fed shielding the hard way. Hell, the Feds can.
The incredible ease with which they do most of the time however is entirely due to the adaption gimmick.

I understand.

My point is simple enough: we know the Borg adapt their own defense to better cope with incoming fire. Numerous lines across various Trek iterations support that.

However, I do not recall any real proof that the Borg adapted their offense to affect targets' defenses more efficiently.

I don't really doubt that it's happened; I just wanted to know if there was some quote or the like that I've heretofore missed.

[Batman]

*scratches head*
Err- people stating they are rotating/modulating/varying/whateverying shield frequencies against Borg weapons is something of a dead giveaway, methinks.

[seanrobertson]

*scratches head*
Err- people stating they are rotating/modulating/varying/whateverying shield frequencies against Borg weapons is something of a dead giveaway, methinks.

Yes, certainly; but to my knowledge, the only time a Starfleet ship remodulated shields to foil Borg adaptation was when the Enterprise rotated frequencies to delay a tractor beam lock ("BOBW").

In fairness, tractor beams could easily be considered a Borg weapon; they certainly drain shields efficiently and, if I saw what I think I did in "FC," the things can impart serious physical damage as well.

But "weapon" singular is a little different from this:

"Because as we know the Borg don't overwhelm through sheer power but frequency adaption."

By that, I assumed you referred to all weapons in the Borg's arsenal
--the disruptors, torpedoes and all other dedicated ship-killers. With but a single, highly aberrative exception, I don't remember any proof of a Borg torpedo, disruptor beam/bolt or the like being tailored to "better fit" a Starfleet ship's shields.

I apologize for not being more clear. Perhaps I read too much into what you said.

[Junghalli]

I thought it was the Borg shields that adapted, not their weapons. And I'm sort of dubious about this whole theory that the Borg can't handle DET weapons. If that was true then how does their shield stop antimatter bombs (i.e. photon torpedos)? If the Borg really could only stop energy weapons then a couple of megaton yield torpedos should have obliterated the cube.

[Patrick Degan]

I thought it was the Borg shields that adapted, not their weapons. And I'm sort of dubious about this whole theory that the Borg can't handle DET weapons. If that was true then how does their shield stop antimatter bombs (i.e. photon torpedos)? If the Borg really could only stop energy weapons then a couple of megaton yield torpedos should have obliterated the cube.

It's merely a question of how much power you pour into the weapon. And from what's been observed, there aren't any "couple of megaton yield" torpedoes, at least none that have been used in combat.

[Darth Wong]

I thought it was the Borg shields that adapted, not their weapons. And I'm sort of dubious about this whole theory that the Borg can't handle DET weapons. If that was true then how does their shield stop antimatter bombs (i.e. photon torpedos)? If the Borg really could only stop energy weapons then a couple of megaton yield torpedos should have obliterated the cube.

I'm kind of curious how anyone could watch solar flares effortlessly annihilating Borg cubes and not conclude that brute-force energy weapons would overwhelm Borg defenses. Particularly when one considers how low the energy density of a solar flare is (they contain a lot of energy but they're huuuuuuuuuge).

[teleguy]

Was the Batmobile armor in Endgame more effective than shields across the board, or merely vs Borg weapons? Because as we know the Borg don't overwhelm through sheer power but frequency adaption. Which is sorta hard to do against armor.

The Batmobile armor on future Janeways shuttle resisted the attacks of one (or more ) Klingon capital ship(s).

[teleguy]

Maybe shields do a more effective job than the armor. If weapons power increases then the armor may not be sufficient and by that time shields have been developed that are.

Maybe. But that hull armor has been pretty damn effective so far. Last night's episode has the Enterprise sitting at point blank range below a Klingon Battlecruiser and taking direct hits on a weapon that had a really high refire rate for five minutes.

Brian

I seem to recall from a season one episode (the trip is preggers one) that a kingon battlecrusie could easily wipe out the NX-01 a warning shot send everyone flying IIRC.

The armor was upgraded at the beginning of season 3.

[brianeyci]

I seem to recall from a season one episode (the trip is preggers one) that a kingon battlecrusie could easily wipe out the NX-01 a warning shot send everyone flying IIRC.

Must have gotten upgrades to their hull plating then. Klingon battlecruiser shoots Enterprise for like five minutes direct hits point blank range in most recent episode and nobody is sent flying at all.

Brian