A question about fighters

[BenRG]

Okayyyyyy...two guys in there.

b-but ya only need ONE!

I know you're kidding, ES. Although, I know that there are a lot of Air Force brass who don't like the Tomcat, the Eagle and the Hornet because, to them, a fighter has one engine and one crewmember. However, as PANVIA, the manufacturer of the European Tornado multi-role fighter point out, the only way one crewmember can fly some 'planes would be for them to have two heads and four arms...

Seriously, look at the little Bajoran Raider used in the season 1 cliffhanger of DS9. Even though that was a tiny little sub-light fighter, it still needed two crewmembers because it was impossible to fly and aim a gun turret at the same time. I think that the two-seat Peregrine-class heavy fighter owes a lot, conceptually, to the Gunstar from "The Last Starfighter". One guy to fly, one guy to aim and shoot the guns (and run the countermeasures equipment too).

Besides, we all know that the Federation likes its 'communal effort' thing. Probably the thought of a single-seat fighter relying on just one person's individual effort brought the Joint Chiefs out in hives or something.

[brianeyci]

I always assumed the glow of the torpedos was just their exhaust. The missile itself doesn't glow, but you can't see it because of the bright trail of hot plasma it leaves. Of course, that assumes they're propelled by some sort of rocket and not something more exotic.

Torpedoes go through shields if they know the frequency, a la ST:GEN. Therefore, they have to have some sort of field that can change its own frequency to 180 degrees opposite to go through the shield. Occam's Razor suggests a shield. Go to archive board and search for Brandon Bray's analysis of "treknology" for an interesting analysis of how photons are used as cannonballs to penetrate shields.

Also, since nobody has tried to shoot down a torpedo other than those huge V'ger torpedoes which were not conventional torpedoes, Occam's Razor also suggests that the effort required to shoot down a torpedo is greater than the gain, suggesting again shields. Starfleet phasers are accurate enough to hit torpedoes, they have hit small fast moving ships like Jem'Hadar bug fighters before, and in Voyager they hit those small leech ships that leeched onto Voyager's hull by the hundreds.

Also, they may be Earth ships (not Starfleet but Earth). The Federation is a fairly loose organization and it's not inconcievable that some members may keep their own independent militias (I know I sure as hell wouldn't trust the defense of Earth to Starfleet ). For what it's worth, they have a very vague resemblance to the Earth ships in the Starfleet Museum.

Pure speculation. We know that Vulcan has an independent defense force, but given that the Federation is centered on Earth, the Federation probably handles Earth's defense. This would explain the inepitude of defending Earth against numerous threats like Breen attack on SF headquarters. Actually, after all the numerous threats to Earth, Earth was never fortified. We hear of defenses in ST:TMP, but in BOBW the cube just sits in orbit around Earth and isn't pounded by thousands of torpedoes. Maybe the TNG Feds went pussified and dismantled defenses on Earth. All Earth would need would be a few DS9's in orbit, or defenses like photon launchers that we know Federation archaeological outposts have (they also have phaser arrays), or theatre shielding around important locations like SF headquarters that we saw a Federation colony have which could resist a Romulan attack for about an hour. Earth has none of this.

Brian

[NecronLord]

Because the Federation has a technical edge with the accuracy of their phasers

Can that be shown? I don't know about the Klingons or the Romulans, but the major threats they've seemed to face recently, the Borg and the Dominion both had what was, AFAIK, superior technology in most areas.

[brianeyci]

Can that be shown? I don't know about the Klingons or the Romulans, but the major threats they've seemed to face recently, the Borg and the Dominion both had what was, AFAIK, superior technology in most areas.

Yes. Just watch any of those fleet battles and you'll see the Dominon and Cardassians have incredible trouble hitting the Defiant buzzing about, and the Pegerines too.

The most conclusive evidence is when Sisko is down to "one more hit and we're fucked" and he brings the Defiant to point blank range a la ANH and the Klingon ship can't get a single hit on it despite it being a super Nerg'Vah (sp). This is in an alternate universe, but it is still Klingon tech and resembles a Ner'Vah (sp) but scaled up.

Yet, at point blank range in VOY, VOY has no trouble hitting small swarms of those leech ships that leech onto it.

Fed definitely has an edge in phaser accuracy. This is supported by the Fed's use of "phaser arrays" which cover all directions rather than fixed arcs of fire like Klingon battlecruisers and Romulan warbirds, whose weapons all face fore.

Brian

[NecronLord]

Yes. Just watch any of those fleet battles and you'll see the Dominon and Cardassians have incredible trouble hitting the Defiant buzzing about, and the Pegerines too.

And? The Feddies miss shit too.

The most conclusive evidence is when Sisko is down to "one more hit and we're fucked" and he brings the Defiant to point blank range a la ANH and the Klingon ship can't get a single hit on it despite it being a super Nerg'Vah (sp). This is in an alternate universe, but it is still Klingon tech and resembles a Ner'Vah (sp) but scaled up.

Yawn. Alternate universe.

Yet, at point blank range in VOY, VOY has no trouble hitting small swarms of those leech ships that leech onto it.

Stop the presses. It can hit ships that are going to smack into it.

Fed definitely has an edge in phaser accuracy. This is supported by the Fed's use of "phaser arrays" which cover all directions rather than fixed arcs of fire like Klingon battlecruisers and Romulan warbirds, whose weapons all face fore.

Brian

And when they finally built a warship, they did away with this in favour of pulsed phaser arrays (or whatever)

[brianeyci]

And? The Feddies miss shit too.

Not as much as the Jemmies, as evidenced by the Defiant being able to fly in the densest concentration of Jem'Hadar ships and the Jem'Hadar ships missing, but Jem'Hadar bug fighters getting hit by Odyessy.

Yawn. Alternate universe.

Compatable tech, as the Defiant was able to be constructed in six months by rebels, and we get no indication anything is different other than the political situation.

And when they finally built a warship, they did away with this in favour of pulsed phaser arrays (or whatever)

Probably in favour of more firepower sacrificing accuracy, and the Defiant is akin to a heavy fighter rather than a capital ship and relies on its maneuverability more than its weapons accuracy. Sovereign still has phaser arrays and it is a warship.

Brian

[NecronLord]

Not as much as the Jemmies, as evidenced by the Defiant being able to fly in the densest concentration of Jem'Hadar ships and the Jem'Hadar ships missing, but Jem'Hadar bug fighters getting hit by Odyessy.

Show me your statistics then. I want to see a comparison of the shots fires to impact ratios of federation and Dominion warships.

Compatable tech, as the Defiant was able to be constructed in six months by rebels, and we get no indication anything is different other than the political situation.

Fuck off and stop lying. The Alternate universe did not have cloaking technology for a start.

Probably in favour of more firepower sacrificing accuracy, and the Defiant is akin to a heavy fighter rather than a capital ship and relies on its maneuverability more than its weapons accuracy. Sovereign still has phaser arrays and it is a warship.

Brian

Liar. The Sovereign is a 'Deterrance Explorer' not a dedicated warship like the Defiant. It has luxuries like holodecks.

[brianeyci]

Show me your statistics then. I want to see a comparison of the shots fires to impact ratios of federation and Dominion warships.

I don't have statistics, I'm appealing to the authority of Alyeska, who is knowledgable in ST. I don't see why I shouldn't accept her opinion at face value given her expertise.

My only evidence is what I have stated already -- that Defiant can survive by diving into the deepest concentration of Jem'Hadar and Cardassian vessels, yet Jem'Hadar bug fighters get hit by Odyssey and they are no more or less maneuverable than Defiant.

Fuck off and stop lying. The Alternate universe did not have cloaking technology for a start.

The Federation doesn't have cloaking technology either, they had to get it from the Romulans. Alternate-Defiant not having cloak is easily explained by the political situation rather than a technology explaination. If the technology was radically different, Defiant blueprints would have been useless.

Alternate universe does not mean everything is different. The burden of proof is definitely on me to show the tech is the same though, and I've already stated that the ship Worf was flying looked like an upscaled Klingon ship, and that Defiant was able to be constructed to exacting specifications, so it is more likely than not that much of the tech is the same.

Liar. The Sovereign is a 'Deterrance Explorer' not a dedicated warship like the Defiant. It has luxuries like holodecks.

Who cares, Defiant was designed to fight the Borg. There is no canon evidence that Starfleet classifies the Defiant as some sort of "warship" or that it builds a shitload of Defiants for security purposes as opposed to Sovereign. Sovereign is meant to be a first-responder platform just like the Galaxy. That's like claiming the Galaxy is not a warship because it has holodecks. It is.

Brian

[NecronLord]

I don't have statistics, I'm appealing to the authority of Alyeska, who is knowledgable in ST. I don't see why I shouldn't accept her opinion at face value given her expertise.

1 - Alyeska is (unless he's been lying) a guy. His name is Christopher Fontaine. He'll probably beat you for this later.
2 - His authority is only somewhat valid, given that I was asking for some confirmation of his hypothesis, not someone to parrot it.

Fuck off and stop lying. The Alternate universe did not have cloaking technology for a start.

The Federation doesn't have cloaking technology either, they had to get it from the Romulans. Alternate-Defiant not having cloak is easily explained by the political situation rather than a technology explaination. If the technology was radically different, Defiant blueprints would have been useless.

The Alternate Klingons do not have the cloaking technology, and have never heard of it. It was supposedly never invented in that universe. The entire plot of the DS9 episode 'The Emperor's New Cloak' hinged on that.

Alternate universe does not mean everything is different. The burden of proof is definitely on me to show the tech is the same though, and I've already stated that the ship Worf was flying looked like an upscaled Klingon ship, and that Defiant was able to be constructed to exacting specifications, so it is more likely than not that much of the tech is the same.

Who cares, Defiant was designed to fight the Borg. There is no canon evidence that Starfleet classifies the Defiant as some sort of "warship" or that it builds a shitload of Defiants for security purposes as opposed to Sovereign. Sovereign is meant to be a first-responder platform just like the Galaxy. That's like claiming the Galaxy is not a warship because it has holodecks. It is.

Brian

The Galaxy is a standard starfleet vessel. The Defiant is different in that it is built solely for war, unlike all other Starfleet vessels. The introduction of the Defiant made that quite clear. Must I really pull quotes?

[brianeyci]

1 - Alyeska is (unless he's been lying) a guy. His name is Christopher Fontaine. He'll probably beat you for this later.
2 - His authority is only somewhat valid, given that I was asking for some confirmation of his hypothesis, not someone to parrot it.

Alyeska sounds girlish at least.

Okay.

The Alternate Klingons do not have the cloaking technology, and have never heard of it. It was supposedly never invented in that universe. The entire plot of the DS9 episode 'The Emperor's New Cloak' hinged on that.

Fine, point conceded.

The Galaxy is a standard starfleet vessel. The Defiant is different in that it is built solely for war, unlike all other Starfleet vessels. The introduction of the Defiant made that quite clear. Must I really pull quotes?

I'll beat you to it.

WORF
Yes?

MACDUFF
We've heard from all decks --
there are over a thousand people
on board. Everyone's had their
memories affected in the same way
we have.

Worf nods, indicates the console he's been working.

WORF
I have completed a survey of our
tactical systems. We are equipped
with ten phaser banks, two
hundred seventy five photon
torpedoes, and a high capacity
shield grid.

MACDUFF
We're a battleship.

WORF
It appears so...

So once the Feds got rid of their touchy-feely idea through a mindwipe, they immediately concluded Ent-D was a warship. That is their expert opinion.

Who cares if Starfleet classfies the Sovereign as a "multi-purpose explorer". Its role is definitely intended to be a warship even if the Feds don't realize it.

SISKO
(re: monitor)
Officially she's classified as an
escort vessel... unofficially the
Defiant's a warship. Nothing more,
nothing less.

So what, the Feds classify the Defiant as a warship. Means nothing. Sovereign is obviously a warship as well, given its firepower. If pulse phaser arrays were that much more effective, do you not think they would have replaced the phaser arrays totally with pulse ones on their most modern ship, the Sovereign, whether or not it was classified for "war"? Obviously using the pulse phasers involves some sort of tradeoff.

Brian

[Alyeska]

AFAIK, the only real fighters seen was found in the damned abortion known as ST Nemesis.

One man tactical craft...THAT is a fighter in my dictionaryn not the Peregrines the Maquis were using; those were multi-person crewed craft.

http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GPeregrine4.jpg

http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GPeregrine2.jpg

Those are most assuredly fighters, and they are probably one manned, at most two manned.

[NecronLord]

Alyeska sounds girlish at least.

Jesus man. What kind of sick masochist are you?

WORF
Yes?

MACDUFF
We've heard from all decks --
there are over a thousand people
on board. Everyone's had their
memories affected in the same way
we have.

Worf nods, indicates the console he's been working.

WORF
I have completed a survey of our
tactical systems. We are equipped
with ten phaser banks, two
hundred seventy five photon
torpedoes, and a high capacity
shield grid.

MACDUFF
We're a battleship.

WORF
It appears so...

So once the Feds got rid of their touchy-feely idea through a mindwipe, they immediately concluded Ent-D was a warship. That is their expert opinion.

They're armed as a battleship. Despite this, it has additional functions that make it multi-role. Unlike the Defiant, which is a pure, unadulterated Warship.

Who cares if Starfleet classfies the Sovereign as a "multi-purpose explorer". Its role is definitely intended to be a warship even if the Feds don't realize it.

SISKO
(re: monitor)
Officially she's classified as an
escort vessel... unofficially the
Defiant's a warship. Nothing more,
nothing less.

So what, the Feds classify the Defiant as a warship. Means nothing. Sovereign is obviously a warship as well, given its firepower. If pulse phaser arrays were that much more effective, do you not think they would have replaced the phaser arrays totally with pulse ones on their most modern ship, the Sovereign, whether or not it was classified for "war"? Obviously using the pulse phasers involves some sort of tradeoff.

Brian

Beam phasers are likely more flexible. We've seen them used to preform of all things, surgery on space dwelling organisms. Pulse phasers are more of a war weapon.

[Alyeska]

Because the Federation has a technical edge with the accuracy of their phasers

Can that be shown? I don't know about the Klingons or the Romulans, but the major threats they've seemed to face recently, the Borg and the Dominion both had what was, AFAIK, superior technology in most areas.

The Klingons, Romulans, Dominion, Cardassians, and even the Borg have trouble hitting targets less then 200 meters in size with good accuracy using beam weapons. Starfleet has greater then 90% accuracy against similar sized targets while firing just as many shots.

[brianeyci]

They're armed as a battleship. Despite this, it has additional functions that make it multi-role. Unlike the Defiant, which is a pure, unadulterated Warship.

The point is showing that they arm the Ent-D as a warship, even though it is an explorer vessel. Meaning that classifications mean shit.

Beam phasers are likely more flexible. We've seen them used to preform of all things, surgery on space dwelling organisms. Pulse phasers are more of a war weapon.

And phaser arrays have a far greater coverage than pulse phasers, which only has a limited firing arc. Which was the point.

Brian

[NecronLord]

I don't know about the borg. They downed those missiles pretty well. I'd credit a lot of this to the evasion and ECM capabilities of the Defiant...

[Alyeska]

Alyeska sounds girlish at least.

(sigh)

Don't go there.

[Alyeska]

I don't know about the borg. They downed those missiles pretty well. I'd credit a lot of this to the evasion and ECM capabilities of the Defiant...

One way or another, the Federation scores better accuracy against their enemies and make effective use of fighter craft when their enemies can't.

[NecronLord]

The point is showing that they arm the Ent-D as a warship, even though it is an explorer vessel. Meaning that classifications mean shit.

It has guns. It also has endless amounts of other stuff. It is multi-role. A dedicated warship of equivalent size and technology would fucking annihalate it. Do you understand?

[brianeyci]

It has guns. It also has endless amounts of other stuff. It is multi-role. A dedicated warship of equivalent size and technology would fucking annihalate it. Do you understand?

That doesn't matter. You said that pulse phaser arrays were put on warships, as if pulse phaser arrays have some sort of advantage over phaser arrays in terms of accuracy. I showed that the Ent-D was as heavily armed as any warship. My hypothesis that the Defiant uses pulse phaser arrays because it can take advantage of its maneuverability to compensate for its limited firing arcs is solid, your hypothesis that the Defiant uses pulse phaser arrays because it is a warship is not given that I gave an example of a "warship" (Ent-D) using phaser arrays. Do you understand?

It doesn't matter if the Ent-D is not classified as a warship, it is as heavily armed as a warship according to Worf and the extra's expert opinion on Federation tech.

Brian

[NecronLord]

DEDICATED warships. Ones that are intended soley to fight. The enterprise does other things, and thus is not a DEDICATED warship. The Defiant is a DEDICATED warship, and is armed with PPAs.

[brianeyci]

DEDICATED warships. Ones that are intended soley to fight. The enterprise does other things, and thus is not a DEDICATED warship. The Defiant is a DEDICATED warship, and is armed with PPAs.

If you want to claim that pulse phasers somehow have some advantage over normal phaser arrays, the burden of proof is on you. I have already stated the obvious point that normal phaser arrays have no limited firing arcs and are therefore superior on less maneuverable ships. You have no evidence to support your argument that pulse phaser arrays are superior other than "they are on a dedicated warship" which is pure hyperbole given that an explorer ship can be just as heavily armed as a warship, dedicated or not. You can be a warship and still explore. In fact, Ent-D is a shining example.

Brian

[NecronLord]

Oh I don't know? Maybe there's the advantage that Pulse Phasers were, IIRC, designed to defeat the borg adaptive shielding.

[brianeyci]

Oh I don't know? Maybe there's the advantage that Pulse Phasers are supposedly more damaging.

That's another assumption, easily dealt with by bringing up the Ent-X's phaser lance. And before you bring up the alternate universe argument, it is still a phaser which shows that beam phasers can be just as effective as pulse phasers.

Pulse phasers may be more efficient sort of like hand Type-III's continuous beam versus Type-IIIa's and b's pulse fire rather than having more firepower. If the Sovereign was equipped with pulse phasers, that doesn't necessarily mean it is more effective in combat. Defiant is able to compensate for the limited firing arcs of a pulse phaser because it can maneuver well.

Brian

[NecronLord]

That's another assumption, easily dealt with by bringing up the Ent-X's phaser lance. And before you bring up the alternate universe argument, it is still a phaser which shows that beam phasers can be just as effective as pulse phasers.

They have yet to develop that, fool. Technological change may again favour beams in the future, of course.

Pulse phasers may be more efficient sort of like hand Type-III's continuous beam versus Type-IIIa's and b's pulse fire rather than having more firepower. If the Sovereign was equipped with pulse phasers, that doesn't necessarily mean it is more effective in combat. Defiant is able to compensate for the limited firing arcs of a pulse phaser because it can maneuver well.

Brian

So... Your assertion that the Sovvie is a DEDICATED WARSHIP is based on the fact that?

[brianeyci]

They have yet to develop that, fool. Technological change may again favour beams in the future, of course.

It doesn't matter, it shows that beam phasers are not limited to be weaker than pulse phasers, which is the point.

So... Your assertion that the Sovvie is a DEDICATED WARSHIP is based on the fact that?

It doesn't matter that the Sovvie is a dedicated warship or not. Classifications mean shit. What the Sovvie does is what matters. It fulfills war roles.

You seem to be kept hung up on this word "DEDICATED" as if somehow Fed engineers would not put the most modern effective combat technology on the Sovereign for some reason just because it is not classified as a warship. Please.

Brian