Question about Riker in Nemesis

[Darth Wong]

Don't be an idiot. The applicant pool is the term, and we already know it exists. Whether it's bad or not is an open question, but the applicant pool is known to exist so Occam's Razor says nothing about this. For the umpteenth time, stop trying to apply principles that you obviously don't fucking understand.

Obviously. That's why I specifically said a bad applicant pool, and you yourself say this is an open question. All I was trying to get at is just because Riker is a retard, that doesn't mean the applicant pool is bad or good based only on that specific point. Duh.

Yet again you demonstrate that you are a fucking idiot. Occam's Razor is completely irrelevant to the question of how good the average Starfleet captain is, and Riker's incompetence was not being used to prove that applicants are all bad. The point was that this was less problematic theory than your "Picard's word is law and Starfleet will ignore Riker's incompetence for that reason" theory.

And Occam's Razor is easy to understand.

Brian

Not for you, apparently.

[brianeyci]

...Riker's incompetence was not being used to prove that applicants are all bad.

Fine.

The point was that this was less problematic theory than your "Picard's word is law and Starfleet will ignore Riker's incompetence for that reason" theory.

I never said that Picard's word was law or that Starfleet would ignore Riker's incompetence. Riker's incompetence IIRC in Generations was letting LaForge back into the ship even though his visor might have been compromised? If Picard wrote his report to commend Riker rather than blast him, that would be the explaination for Riker being promoted. It would be quite easy for Picard to talk his way in/out of promoting Riker -- Picard talked his way out of seven Prime Directive violations (although one could argue that he ruined his chances for ever becoming an Admiral). Picard could have easily omitted the visor (or whatever you are talking about, there were several Riker misdeeds in Generations not the least being letting a BOP take out a Galaxy), or reworded his report to focus on the good rather than the bad. IIRC it was Riker who suggested the idea to exploit the vulnerability and cloak the BOP lowering its shields. We already know that Picard's recommendations hold weight, if you like I will dig up a link to the thread/post that proposes serving on the Ent-D being a dangerous fast track to promotion.

Riker being promoted because of Picard's commendation makes sense. I don't see how this is less problematic than "Starfleet has a weak applicant pool to the point they let a person who is incompetent command a starship" As well, IIRC it wasn't specified where Riker was going, so he could have been going to a garbage scow for all we know. Or to some administrative/"safe" position.

Riker being promoted because of Picard's recommendation is the best explaination there is given what we know. I don't see how you can declare that point invalid or illogical. If I am missing something, enlighten me.

<edit> I found it more easily than I thought, http://bbs2.stardestroyer.net/Archive/v ... fast+track it is Stravo who gives the point that the Ent-D is a fast track to promotion, although he doesn't mention that it is Picard's recommendation that allows promotion and the discussion was a lot shorter than I remembered. Therefore I will alter my theory -- a combination of Riker serving on the Ent, and Picard's recommendation and favorable reports propelled Riker to the Captain's chair </edit>

Brian

[Darth Wong]

Riker's incompetence IIRC in Generations was letting LaForge back into the ship even though his visor might have been compromised?

His incompetence was during the battle with the BOP, in which he failed to respond quickly and then he failed to cycle his shield frequencies upon discovering that the enemy had penetrated them. This incompetence led directly to the destruction of the ship.

If Picard wrote his report to commend Riker rather than blast him, that would be the explaination for Riker being promoted. It would be quite easy for Picard to talk his way in/out of promoting Riker -- Picard talked his way out of seven Prime Directive violations (although one could argue that he ruined his chances for ever becoming an Admiral). Picard could have easily omitted the visor (or whatever you are talking about, there were several Riker misdeeds in Generations not the least being letting a BOP take out a Galaxy), or reworded his report to focus on the good rather than the bad. IIRC it was Riker who suggested the idea to exploit the vulnerability and cloak the BOP lowering its shields.

You're actually trying to use Worf's assistance in that battle as a point in FAVOUR of Riker?

We already know that Picard's recommendations hold weight, if you like I will dig up a link to the thread/post that proposes serving on the Ent-D being a dangerous fast track to promotion.

Riker being promoted because of Picard's commendation makes sense.

No it doesn't. Military administrations should look at someone's service record, not just personal recommendations.

I don't see how this is less problematic than "Starfleet has a weak applicant pool to the point they let a person who is incompetent command a starship"

Since they did let an incompetent command a starship, you have no case to deny the plausibiliy of this idea.

Riker being promoted because of Picard's recommendation is the best explaination there is given what we know. I don't see how you can declare that point invalid or illogical.

It's not a logical point at all, dumb-ass. It's just a recitation of your conclusion.

[Alyeska]

Riker was promoted because he is sadly representative of the officer pool in Starfleet. Good officers and captains exist, but they are not as numerous as they should have been. Chalk this up to the TNG era paficist thinking in Starfleet. This seems to be going away by the Dominion war and Riker did show himself to be more competent then usual in Nemesis. Its possible the Dominion war shook up the officer pool and everyone had to undergo better training.

That said, Picard is a golden boy in Starfleet and anyone he recomends gets a significant advantage in the promotion board and selection process.

[brianeyci]

His incompetence was during the battle with the BOP, in which he failed to respond quickly and then he failed to cycle his shield frequencies upon discovering that the enemy had penetrated them. This incompetence led directly to the destruction of the ship.

Fuck I never thought of that. Although in Riker's defense, the last time the Ent-D cycled shield frequencies quickly against the Borg IIRC, the Ent-D required special modifications by Shelby. So maybe the Ent-D didn't have such modifications online.

As well, Geordi was looking directly at the shield frequency screen. Are you absolutely sure Riker didn't change shield frequencies a couple of times, or give an order like "modulate the shield frequencies"? If Riker did order a couple of changes, maybe that was the fastest the Enterprise could do it.

You're actually trying to use Worf's assistance in that battle as a point in FAVOUR of Riker?

Fine, it was Worf who suggested it I was wrong.

No it doesn't. Military administrations should look at someone's service record, not just personal recommendations.

I'm not saying that they ignored Riker's service record, quite the opposite. If Picard worded it like, "Riker figured out how to cloak the BOP and saved 1000 blokes" rather than "he was an idiot and didn't change shield frequencies" Starfleet would have had a different response. And the service record thing ties directly into my hypothesis -- that serving on the Ent-D and Picard's recommendation is a fast track and that's why Riker got promoted (I modified my hypothesis after checking out the old post, now I am suggesting it is not just Picard's recommendation but serving on the Ent-D and the recommendation that are the catalysts to Riker's promotion)

Since they did let an incompetent command a starship, you have no case to deny the plausibiliy of this idea.

Fine. However there is a low-end and high-end estimate of SF's stupidity. Letting an incompetent command a garbage scow because you don't go over the service record with a fine tooth comb because you can't ignore a hero's captain's request is a lot different than giving a top-of-the-line starship to somebody that you know is a retard. Riker was already offered a promotion in TNG, IIRC someone from HAB mentioned that it was incredibly unlikely in a real military for someone to be offerred a promotion twice if he rejected it the first time, and since the Fed would act like a military administration, (as you said above) there had to be a reason why Starfleet would go back to Riker even after he rejected the first time. The Picard recommendation idea deals with that dangling thread.

Brian

[Lord Pounder]

It's also worth pointing out that Riker had turned down numerous promition oportunities, most noteably prior to the first major Borg attack when Shelby expected to assume the XO spot on the Enterprise.

In other episodes Riker was considered to be a superior strategist. Anyone remember the war games TNG episide where Picard called him "the best".

My point is Riker wasn't a bad officer, it's just that in the TNG movies he was the victim of shit writting and letting the woman he was banging assume the helm.

[SirNitram]

As well, Geordi was looking directly at the shield frequency screen. Are you absolutely sure Riker didn't change shield frequencies a couple of times, or give an order like "modulate the shield frequencies"? If Riker did order a couple of changes, maybe that was the fastest the Enterprise could do it.

THIS is what unnecessary, unknown terms look like, Brian. Just so you know for future reference.

[brianeyci]

My point is Riker wasn't a bad officer, it's just that in the TNG movies he was the victim of shit writting and letting the woman he was banging assume the helm.

Sigh if only we could blame shit writing for everything then Star Trek would be exonerated. No more technobabble, no more stupidity, no more Borg fuckup. Too bad its not a valid point in an in-universe discussion though.

And I thought that Riker using the Joystick to maneuver the Ent-E was pretty cool.

Brian

[Tommy J]

Riker probably got promoted because of commendation from Picard.

Ah, so it explains everything.

Of course. That also explains why Starfleet ignored his incompetence of command that led directly to the destruction of the Enterprise-D. Oh wait a minute ...

Actually I don't blame Riker for the implant not being discovered. If anyone is to blame it's Dr. Crusher for not performing a complete physical.

Any Commander would assume that after a ship's Dr. gives a sailor a complete bill of health especially after an interrogation; the medical exam was complete and trustworthy and no intelligence gathering devices existed.


Edit: Real life example of my point. Say Osama BinLaden some how was able to get CIA Codes and communications freq. And say, operatives were being mysteriously killed worldwide. It might take the Dir of the CIA and his subordinates a few 'mistakes' to see the pattern. It might even take another terrorist event itself -- REASON BEING, the concept that a 3rd World Terrorist could acquire CIA communications freq. would be the least probable breakdown in intelligence.

Riker was suprised that the Klingon sisters were able to penetrate the shields and baffled by the solution at first. It was the improbable solution that they got the shield freq


Edit/Edit: Do you blame the entire US Admirality, President Roosevelt, and the Joint Cheifs for their incredibly stupid inability to see the attack on Pearl Harbor? Should all of them been fired? Should the President been impeached?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Actually I don't blame Riker for the implant not being discovered. If anyone is to blame it's Dr. Crusher for not performing a complete physical.

Many people here don't think the implant is what led to the destruction of the E-D. I agree with them. The implant helped the BoP cause fatal damage to the E-D BUT it was Rikers incompetence that allowed the damage to get that far.

The fact that Riker only ordered phasers to fire ONCE and then the one torpedo that destroyed the BoP.

[Lord Pounder]

Yeah Crusher fucked up, as did the transporter chief whosould have detected the unknown technology., but Riker was in command of a Galaxy class ship. The Enterprise could have ripped the Birdof Prey apart in several seconds. It was an ancient ship, a spread of photon torps would have crippled the Sisters. It may be argued that Riker may have though Picard was on board but surely he could have shot to disable.

[Uraniun235]

Actually I don't blame Riker for the implant not being discovered.

Please watch the TNG episodes Best of Both Worlds, Part 1 and Survivors for the greatest displays of firepower ever seen from a Galaxy class starship, and come back and tell us that Riker's actions in combat were appropriate.

It may be argued that Riker may have though Picard was on board but surely he could have shot to disable.

Even then, Riker should have known better and put the ~1000 lives aboard the Enterprise above Picard's one life.

[Petrosjko]

Even then, Riker should have known better and put the ~1000 lives aboard the Enterprise above Picard's one life.

Picard put the entire ship at risk when Weasley was going to get executed by the natives of Edo. TNG was rife with that sort of idiotic sentimentalism.

[Lord Pounder]

Actually I don't blame Riker for the implant not being discovered.

Please watch the TNG episodes Best of Both Worlds, Part 1 and Survivors for the greatest displays of firepower ever seen from a Galaxy class starship, and come back and tell us that Riker's actions in combat were appropriate.

It may be argued that Riker may have though Picard was on board but surely he could have shot to disable.

Even then, Riker should have known better and put the ~1000 lives aboard the Enterprise above Picard's one life.

That second quote was me and you seem to have ignored the part about shooting to disable, which wouldn't be that hard a feat considering Worf had displayed precision shooting before and had even served on a BoP sh he definately knew where the weak spots where.

[Alyeska]

Lets look at the Generations example for all the situations Riker fucked up.

#1: Riker lets Geordi into engineering knowing full well he has a device that could have something implanted in. This single event is the only reason the BoP even decided to attack the Enterprise. However, had Riker been a competent captain this single mistake could have been corrected with future action.

#2: Riker is told from the very start by Worf that the BoP had penetrated the Enterprises shields. Riker should have immediately ordered random frequency shifting. They already had this capability.

#3: After failing to fix mistake #3, Riker makes mistake #3. He does not fire all his weapons at the BoP. Had he done this he would have destroyed it in a single alpha strike.

#4: Riker tries running away from a ship that has greater maneuverability and acceleration.

#5: After making the 4 previous mistakes Riker wastes more time by conferencing with his senior officers and concocting a wild ass plan that requires critical timing and more time is lost.

Had Riker not made just one of the first three mistakes, the Enterprise would have survived with little to no damage. Instead he compounds each error until the Enterprise is so heavily damaged he is forced into saucer separation and the battle section is lost while the saucer section is wrecked. Countless lives in the engineering section were also lost from the multiple torpedo and disrupter strikes on it.

Riker should have faced a court martial for gross negligence with the loss of a valuable military asset and the loss of several crew members due to sheer incompetence.

That Riker is held up as one of Starfleets BETTER tacticians and his presence on the Enterprise is proof of how poor the officers and captains pool is in Starfleet for the last decade bare minimum.

[Patrick Degan]

#2: Riker is told from the very start by Worf that the BoP had penetrated the Enterprises shields. Riker should have immediately ordered random frequency shifting. They already had this capability.

Indeed, it was specifically developed to cope with the Borg.

#3: After failing to fix mistake #2, Riker makes mistake #3. He does not fire all his weapons at the BoP. Had he done this he would have destroyed it in a single alpha strike.

Even with the hits the Enterprise had taken, her arsenal was essentially intact. There was absolutely no excuse for this.

#4: Riker tries running away from a ship that has greater maneuverability and acceleration.

No, what made this worse was Riker having the ship reverse its orbital direction to attempt to flee the BoP, which cancelled forward velocity and required acceleration to regain that velocity while attempting to outrun the Duras sisters. A full-power acceleration in the direction of the BoP would have closed the distance too quickly for the gunners on the enemy ship to react and reversed the situation, with the flight advantages all falling on the side of the Enterprise —which would have had the options of making a fast orbit to come up on the BoP for an attack, or to warp out of orbit at any point, or to change the orbital vector along a more logical and less energy-intensive curve to evade the enemy. Riker's decision had his ship wallowing about like a garbage-scow against a more manoeuverable opponnent.

Riker should have faced a court martial for gross negligence with the loss of a valuable military asset and the loss of several crew members due to sheer incompetence.

Definitely.

That Riker is held up as one of Starfleets BETTER tacticians and his presence on the Enterprise is proof of how poor the officers and captains pool is in Starfleet for the last decade bare minimum.

Indeed. Falls in line with my theory that the only reason why the Federation managed to win the Dominion War was because the Dominion and their Cardassian stooges were even more tactically inept than the Federation.

[Alyeska]

By the time of the Dominion War it appears Starfleet was forced to train its officers better and many of them recieved a trial of fire, so to speak.

Though the Red Squad fiasco on board the USS Valiant shows that there were still big problems in Starfleet.

[brianeyci]

#3: After failing to fix mistake #3, Riker makes mistake #3. He does not fire all his weapons at the BoP. Had he done this he would have destroyed it in a single alpha strike.

#4: Riker tries running away from a ship that has greater maneuverability and acceleration.

I could turn into a Riker apologist and make up excuses for the numbers 1 and 2, but for three and four... unbelievable. He repeats this mistake with the Son'a in Insurrection.

Could it be that the Galaxy actually can be defeated by a BOP, and that a Sovereign can be defeated by two Son'a ships? The only time I remember a Galaxy fighting BOP was in the alternate universe and that Ent was a war refit. IIRC, Tomalak also surrounded the Ent-D with three Romulan Warbirds, and Picard had two BOP decloak alongside him and that was enough to deter Tomalak. If BOP were really "outgunned 20 to 1" like in the TOS, how could a couple of BOP and a Galaxy deter three capital ships? Of course the easy answer is that Tomalak was worried he himself would get killed, but given that it takes so long for a BOP to take out the Ent-D in Generations, if Warbirds are as sturdy as Galaxies there should have been no reason to worry.

Brian

[Stofsk]

I could turn into a Riker apologist-

No, please don't.

Could it be that the Galaxy actually can be defeated by a BOP, and that a Sovereign can be defeated by two Son'a ships? The only time I remember a Galaxy fighting BOP was in the alternate universe and that Ent was a war refit.

Those BoP are K'vort class battelcruisers and are much larger than the smaller, B'rel class 12 man scouts we see in ST3 or Generations. K'vort battlecruisers are pretty sturdy ships, the E-D could only take out one out of three, though this is of course an alternate reality Enterprise.

IIRC, Tomalak also surrounded the Ent-D with three Romulan Warbirds, and Picard had two BOP decloak alongside him and that was enough to deter Tomalak.

It was two Warbirds, and they decloaked with their forward fire arcs pointing right at the E-D. The three BoPs that escorted the E-D (which never has an escort in spite of being a so-called flagship, but no matter) were K'vort class battlecruisers, one was directly behind and above the E-D, which is a good position to split the Romulan's fire to two targets, while two other BoPs decloaked right behind Tomalok's Warbirds, which have piss poor rear fire arcs IIRC. The episode was "The Defector". Dialogue between Picard and Tomalok seemed to suggest that the E-D would be doomed to destruction if Tomalok pushed the fire button, yet if he did the Klingons would be guaranteed in finishing him off. It was essentially a "If we're going down you're coming with us" moment, and shows a rare image of Picard with a double set of iron balls.

I miss season three episodes like that.

If BOP were really "outgunned 20 to 1" like in the TOS, how could a couple of BOP and a Galaxy deter three capital ships? Of course the easy answer is that Tomalak was worried he himself would get killed, but given that it takes so long for a BOP to take out the Ent-D in Generations, if Warbirds are as sturdy as Galaxies there should have been no reason to worry.

See above.

[Alyeska]

a Riker apologist and make up excuses for the numbers 1 and 2, but for three and four... unbelievable. He repeats this mistake with the Son'a in Insurrection.

And they would be pathetic excuses. That he keeps on making mistake after mistake is telling.

Could it be that the Galaxy actually can be defeated by a BOP, and that a Sovereign can be defeated by two Son'a ships?

No, a Galaxy class can never realisticaly be defeated by a B'rel (small) class BOP. Even with shields down a Galaxy class can fire a significantly larger weapon capacity that can cripple (if not outright destroy) a BOP in under five seconds.

The only time I remember a Galaxy fighting BOP was in the alternate universe and that Ent was a war refit.

The Enterprise-D in that episode squared off against three K'Vort class BOPs and destroyed one while damaging another. These are much bigger BOPs that are powerful enough to threaten Warbirds in the right situation.

IIRC, Tomalak also surrounded the Ent-D with three Romulan Warbirds, and Picard had two BOP decloak alongside him and that was enough to deter Tomalak.

Due to the setup of the Klingon ships the Warbirds were in a loosing situation. If they opened fire first and split between the forward BOP and the Enterprise they would destroy the BOP and damage the Enterprise. In return the Enterprise would return fire while the rear two BOPs also returned fire. Given that Warbirds of that class have very few rearward weapons, the Enterprise and the K'Vorts were in a much better position. At worse the Enterprise and a BOP will be lost. If the Enterprise and the Klingons opened fire they almost surely could have survived the battle with only loosing one K'Vort.

If BOP were really "outgunned 20 to 1" like in the TOS, how could a couple of BOP and a Galaxy deter three capital ships? Of course the easy answer is that Tomalak was worried he himself would get killed, but given that it takes so long for a BOP to take out the Ent-D in Generations, if Warbirds are as sturdy as Galaxies there should have been no reason to worry.

Se above. Also note the BOP in Generations is the small B'Rel scout while the two examples you gave were the larger K'Vort class which is 3-4 times larger.

[Chris OFarrell]

By the time of the Dominion War it appears Starfleet was forced to train its officers better and many of them recieved a trial of fire, so to speak.

Though the Red Squad fiasco on board the USS Valiant shows that there were still big problems in Starfleet.

To be fair though, they were cadets, not commisioned officers who simply got far too up themselves. Starfleet pumped them up on the whole Red Squad thing, then suddenly without any officer guidence in wartime they started to belive it. And they waltzed in to take out a Dominion Battleship with a completly off the wall plan...and got their asses kicked for it.

[brianeyci]

The B'rel versus K'Vort explaination is hardly satisfying.

2) The known (sub-) classes of Birds-of-Prey don't help to identify different sizes. On the contrary, the suggestion that the B'rel class should be smaller than the K'Vort class is complete bogus. As a matter of fact, the only time the B'rel was ever verbally identified in TNG: "Rascals", it was represented by stock footage of the K'Vort from TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise"! The D-12 in "Generations" could be the Federation designation for any type or size of BoP. So it's mere speculation if and which other ships belong to these three (sub-) classes. At least, it seems that B'rel ships are supposed to be scouts with a crew of only 12 (like Kruge's BoP), while the K'Vort is a cruiser with a crew of typically over 30. It is well possible that at identical sizes the K'Vort has more crew quarters instead of the large cargo bay of the B'rel.

Brian

[brianeyci]

...and got their asses kicked for it.

I actually really liked that episode. Finally a technobabble solution doesn't end up working. Come to think of it, later DS9 didn't have as much technobabble (or maybe just as much, but more fighting). I don't see why people dislike the continuing story arc idea, was not one of the complaints of TNG was that it suffered from "reset button" where they go on random adventures? Definitely a complaint with Voyager, and Borg only made it worse.

Brian

[Alyeska]

The B'rel versus K'Vort explaination is hardly satisfying.

2) The known (sub-) classes of Birds-of-Prey don't help to identify different sizes. On the contrary, the suggestion that the B'rel class should be smaller than the K'Vort class is complete bogus. As a matter of fact, the only time the B'rel was ever verbally identified in TNG: "Rascals", it was represented by stock footage of the K'Vort from TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise"! The D-12 in "Generations" could be the Federation designation for any type or size of BoP. So it's mere speculation if and which other ships belong to these three (sub-) classes. At least, it seems that B'rel ships are supposed to be scouts with a crew of only 12 (like Kruge's BoP), while the K'Vort is a cruiser with a crew of typically over 30. It is well possible that at identical sizes the K'Vort has more crew quarters instead of the large cargo bay of the B'rel.

Brian

All of which is irrelevent. The examples you gave involve the larger BOP while Generations involves the smaller BOP. Case closed.

[Alyeska]

...and got their asses kicked for it.

I actually really liked that episode. Finally a technobabble solution doesn't end up working. Come to think of it, later DS9 didn't have as much technobabble (or maybe just as much, but more fighting). I don't see why people dislike the continuing story arc idea, was not one of the complaints of TNG was that it suffered from "reset button" where they go on random adventures? Definitely a complaint with Voyager, and Borg only made it worse.

Brian

Chris and I would have preferred if Nog had assumed command. He was the ranking officer and also has the most combat experience. He should have put those Red Squad weenies in their place. But... If you want to keep the episode mostly intact, have Nog assume command after its obvious the plan failed and Nog ends up saving the day and saves the ship after showing how pathetic Red Squad really was in a war time situation. The episode could also show Nog growing increasingly irritated and distant from the whole Red Squad belief after he now confronts his former accademy introdination with his actual experience.