Cloaks, momentum, propulsion, and transporters

[Alyeska]

In order to safely transport people the transporter would have to negate any momentum they have to prevent them from hurting themselves after being transported. This safety feature wouldn't be necessary and the transporter sniper rifle wouldn't have to absorb and remove the bullets momentum.

[Illuminatus Primus]

So what you are saying is that when we have seen transporters work with moving objects it merely absorbs and stops the momentum through sheer size.

How does this work when you take into consideration that the transporter converts the target into pure energy? Mass is lost, momentum disapears.

Energy has momentum, buddy. You really need to take some science before you make these claims.

The rest mass and the kinetic energy will go into the conversion.

[Quadlok]

Isn't the whole problem with cloaks that they always leave some sort of propulsion trail? I always figured they just had some sort of baffle in the engines to diffuse the exhaust and make it less apparent. Or, alternatively, used a low level warp field to destroy the exhaust wake, like scraping a branch along the snow behind you to cover your tracks.

Also, on the subject of reactionless drives, the game Escape Velocity:Nova has a vessel that sucks in the very fabric of space and spits it out the back. I mention that less because I think it has anything to do with anything but more because I think its cool.

And quite picking on Alyeska. Physics is hard, and he's doing better with it than most of the people I've seen.

[Darth Wong]

Isn't the whole problem with cloaks that they always leave some sort of propulsion trail? I always figured they just had some sort of baffle in the engines to diffuse the exhaust and make it less apparent.

That is the most logical explanation, although it becomes more problematic if one assumes huge power requirement for the cloak (as is often done). Even if one were to accept the "subspace" technobabble wank explanation (which is by no means a given), it would still not explain undetectability since all Trek starships have (surprise!) subspace sensors.

Or, alternatively, used a low level warp field to destroy the exhaust wake, like scraping a branch along the snow behind you to cover your tracks.

Since warp fields themselves are quite trackable, this would defeat the purpose.

[Alan Bolte]

In Trek, are common ships most detectible by their exhaust, or is the detectibility of their exhausts much lower than that of their ships to begin with? I'm trying to figure out whether we're talking about normal cloaking or 'perfect cloaks'.

And can someone direct me to good information on just what the hell 'subspace' means? Every time I look into it I get confused.

[omegaLancer]

Well if I want to look at a ship that can move itself without leaving drive emissions, I am going to have to look at subspace and the likes now. Potentialy low level warp movement. Of course such a ship would leave a visible trail in subspace to be spotted.

Wow You ignore my post totally. the links I was providing actually had some solution to your problem.

Not within the context of technologies known to exist in the Trek universe and be accessible by the Federation.

In one case the use of a material with negative mass would basically solve your problem...

Oh great, so if they create a planet-sized positive mass in front of them and a planet-sized negative mass behind them, they can accelerate at 1G (assuming the negative-inertia assumption is valid), which is less acceleration than a modern race car. Could you think of an even less efficient propulsion system, please? And what makes you think it would be hard to detect these gigantic positive and negative masses appearing in front of and behind the ship, for fuck's sake? The idea is to hide a cloaked ship, remember? This fucking system would be detectable at tens of thousands of kilometres by a device as simple as a lead weight on a string.

Yes creating planet size mass of negative mass would be something, but in the light that the ship in question uses a aritifical Quantum singularity it implies that Romulains possess a superior knowledge of the working of spacetime.

Even if negative matter is out there are a host of ideas that Nasa BPP grooup mention that would could be adapted.

We know that in Trek subspace fields are used to shield against inertia and once this is in the picture any of the other drive system become possible.

A typical example would be the Bias drive where a singularity is form within the ship.
"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
A concept from NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Program, the bias drive is a pitch drive that functions by altering the gravitational constant G in front of and behind the craft. One problem with this concept is that it would create a singularity in the field's gradient located inside the vehicle.
"

could this be the source of the artifical singularity that the Romulan ships use as a power source?.


Not that I think that any one of the Trekkie races are smart enought to use it, but combine with cloak it does promise to create an untrackable drive, if the ship doesnot fried in it own unexhausted waste heat.

[Darth Wong]

Yes creating planet size mass of negative mass would be something, but in the light that the ship in question uses a aritifical Quantum singularity it implies that Romulains possess a superior knowledge of the working of spacetime.

So it logically follows that they can create planet-sized positive and negative masses at will? Does the phrase "non sequitur" mean anything to you?

Even if negative matter is out there are a host of ideas that Nasa BPP grooup mention that would could be adapted.

You do realize that those ideas are just there for public interest, right? And that they do not represent endorsement?

We know that in Trek subspace fields are used to shield against inertia and once this is in the picture any of the other drive system become possible.

Yet another non sequitur; if they can reduce inertia, then anything becomes possible?

A typical example would be the Bias drive where a singularity is form within the ship.
"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
A concept from NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Program, the bias drive is a pitch drive that functions by altering the gravitational constant G in front of and behind the craft. One problem with this concept is that it would create a singularity in the field's gradient located inside the vehicle."

could this be the source of the artifical singularity that the Romulan ships use as a power source?

No, because this would be easily detected.

Not that I think that any one of the Trekkie races are smart enought to use it, but combine with cloak it does promise to create an untrackable drive, if the ship doesnot fried in it own unexhausted waste heat.

Wrong. You completely ignored the last sentence of my previous post.

[Natorgator]

What if the cloaking effect extends outside of the actual ship within a certain radius, perhaps to a distance where any kind of exhaust would be diffuse and therefore difficult to detect?

[Darth Wong]

What if the cloaking effect extends outside of the actual ship within a certain radius, perhaps to a distance where any kind of exhaust would be diffuse and therefore difficult to detect?

Once again, this only works if the cloak doesn't draw that much power. A realistically written cloaking device would respect the principle of thermodynamics and have the ship shut down almost all of its powered systems in order to "run silent", by producing very little heat.

I don't know why they don't write it that way; I think it would actually be more dramatic.