Could the Dominion have won ?

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2004-10-18 06:26pm

The Dominion could have won were it not for A) the Prophets and B) their own tactical stupidity.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-18 06:29pm

The Shadow wrote:Was there any way the Dominion could have won the war ?

Easily.

1) If Damar had been shot on sight by the Jem Hadar in "Dogs of War", instead of them attempting to capture him, the Cardassians wouldn't have risen up and the Federation would have been crushed.
2) If Dukat's Pah-wraith in Tears of the Prophets had suceeded in killing the "prophets", the Dominion would have brought thousands of reinforcements in and won.
3) If the Prophets hadn't listen to Sisko and stopped the Dominion reinforcements, the Dominion would have won.
4) If Damar had listened to the other Gul and kept the stolen Jem Hadar fighter, the Federation wouldn't have developed a countermeasure to the Breen weapon and the Dominion would have won.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2004-10-18 07:20pm

1) If Damar had been shot on sight by the Jem Hadar in "Dogs of War", instead of them attempting to capture him, the Cardassians wouldn't have risen up and the Federation would have been crushed.
2) If Dukat's Pah-wraith in Tears of the Prophets had suceeded in killing the "prophets", the Dominion would have brought thousands of reinforcements in and won.
3) If the Prophets hadn't listen to Sisko and stopped the Dominion reinforcements, the Dominion would have won.
4) If Damar had listened to the other Gul and kept the stolen Jem Hadar fighter, the Federation wouldn't have developed a countermeasure to the Breen weapon and the Dominion would have won.

But, many of you forget. If any situation arised where the Federation was defeated, the Founders likely would've been wiped out by the Section 32 virus.

It would be interesting to see what would happen since the Jem H'dar might go nuts and try to kill everything in sight...

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2004-10-18 08:01pm

Darth_Zod wrote:
Lord MJ wrote: If the Dominion attacked right away they would've been crushed, unless the AQ establishments were totally incompetant.
how exactly would they have been crushed? the dominion had vastly superior weaponry, and numerically superior forces. The federation wouldn't have any preparations in place for such a large scale invasion. The combined klingon/romulan/cardassian fleet that was sent to the DQ to smash the founder homeworld got its ass handed to it. There's no reason to believe the federation would have withstood an all out assault as soon as possible without time to prepare.

To correct you error they went to the Gamma Quadrant and the attack force was comprised or Romulan and Cardassian ships.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-18 08:07pm

Admiral_K wrote:
1) If Damar had been shot on sight by the Jem Hadar in "Dogs of War", instead of them attempting to capture him, the Cardassians wouldn't have risen up and the Federation would have been crushed.
2) If Dukat's Pah-wraith in Tears of the Prophets had suceeded in killing the "prophets", the Dominion would have brought thousands of reinforcements in and won.
3) If the Prophets hadn't listen to Sisko and stopped the Dominion reinforcements, the Dominion would have won.
4) If Damar had listened to the other Gul and kept the stolen Jem Hadar fighter, the Federation wouldn't have developed a countermeasure to the Breen weapon and the Dominion would have won.

But, many of you forget. If any situation arised where the Federation was defeated, the Founders likely would've been wiped out by the Section 32 virus.

It would be interesting to see what would happen since the Jem H'dar might go nuts and try to kill everything in sight...

Absolutely. At which point, either:
1) The Jem Hadar commit suicide for failing to protect the Founders, like in the episode "The Ship"- suddenly, every Jem Hadar is dead, and the Cardassians and Breen take their ships and rule the galaxy, or the survivors rise up and rebuild the Federation from its own ashes.

2) The Vorta now control all the Ketracel White. As a result, the Jem Hadar are forced to obey the Vorta. So Weyoun and the other Vorta declare themselves the new rulers of the Dominion in absence of the Founders, and everything carries on just the same except no founders.

Take your pick.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-10-18 10:48pm

Even with all the poor timetabling and horrible telegraphing, couldn't the Dom still have won if they'd ignored DS9 and stopped Defiant laying the minefield? They could have killed Burly Klingon Dude and Defiants crew, kept the wormhole open, etc etc.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-10-18 11:00pm

The Dominion War Arc while entertaining was also really annoying in that the writers in order to create so much dramatoc tension put the Federation in deepening dire straits throughout the first half of the season, so much so that when the turnaround came and the inevitable Federation counter offensive it was unbelievable that a force that had the Federation reeling and floundering was now in full retreat, in the span of two or three epiosdes the Alliance fleet drove straight for Cardasia Prime and won.

Why didn't we see the Dominion pull a similar stunt? One massive drive to Earth? It was a hack move to make the Federation seem so helpless and useless against the Dominion yet pull it out at the very last second to win a victory.

So no, I was not happy with the Dominion Arc, thought it suffered from Episodic TVitis in its writing and staging.

Why couldn't we see a bloody stalemate? A WWI type warfare with the technologically superior Feds blunted by the endless hordes of the Dominion. Not every war has to follow that staid formula of Good guys in dire straits...good guys in even worse dire straits...good guys blow it open and win in time to end the season. UGH.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2004-10-18 11:15pm

Stravo wrote:The Dominion War Arc while entertaining was also really annoying in that the writers in order to create so much dramatoc tension put the Federation in deepening dire straits throughout the first half of the season, so much so that when the turnaround came and the inevitable Federation counter offensive it was unbelievable that a force that had the Federation reeling and floundering was now in full retreat, in the span of two or three epiosdes the Alliance fleet drove straight for Cardasia Prime and won.

Why didn't we see the Dominion pull a similar stunt? One massive drive to Earth? It was a hack move to make the Federation seem so helpless and useless against the Dominion yet pull it out at the very last second to win a victory.

So no, I was not happy with the Dominion Arc, thought it suffered from Episodic TVitis in its writing and staging.

Why couldn't we see a bloody stalemate? A WWI type warfare with the technologically superior Feds blunted by the endless hordes of the Dominion. Not every war has to follow that staid formula of Good guys in dire straits...good guys in even worse dire straits...good guys blow it open and win in time to end the season. UGH.

Well, we did end with a stalemate of sorts. Its not as if the Federation managed to invade and conquer dominion space in the gamma quadrant.

Bellator · Post by **Bellator** » 2004-10-19 08:36am

To correct you error they went to the Gamma Quadrant and the attack force was comprised or Romulan and Cardassian ships.

Yup. And they were only a small task force build by the Romulan and Cardassian secret services. Their military wasn't even involved in it. It's no surprise that a few dozen of those ships got destroyed/captured by a Dominion fleet many times their size.

2) The Vorta now control all the Ketracel White. As a result, the Jem Hadar are forced to obey the Vorta. So Weyoun and the other Vorta declare themselves the new rulers of the Dominion in absence of the Founders, and everything carries on just the same except no founders.

doubtful. The Jem'Hadar are programmed to obey the founders (the White is just a back-up). It's rather likely the Jem'Hadar would prefer to die, then to serve the Vorta as if they were the Founders.

Master Arachnos · Post by **Master Arachnos** » 2004-10-19 11:57am

Option 2 could work, if the Vorta could pull some sort of 'the Founders have ascended to a higher plane of existence, now worship us' stunt.

Hey, it's Trek, they could be dumb enough to fall for it.

Mlenk · Post by **Mlenk** » 2004-10-19 12:29pm

Admiral_K wrote:
But, many of you forget. If any situation arised where the Federation was defeated, the Founders likely would've been wiped out by the Section 32 virus.

Nitpick: It's Section 31, NOT 32.

Bellator · Post by **Bellator** » 2004-10-19 12:44pm

Option 2 could work, if the Vorta could pull some sort of 'the Founders have ascended to a higher plane of existence, now worship us' stunt.

Hey, it's Trek, they could be dumb enough to fall for it.

If you let B&B at it, then yeah, this might be possible. But realisticly speaking, it's most unlikely. The Jem'Hadar were programmed specificly to follow and worship the Founders. We know they have no love for the Vorta, and merely tolerate them because of the Jem'Hadar's dependency on White, and because the Founders tell them to. But when the Founders are gone, the Jem'Hadar's reason d'etre would be gone as well. They would NEVER believe a word the Vorta tell them that would make the Jem'Hadar serve the Vorta in the same way they served the Founders. It's possible that some groups of Jem'Hadar will continue to grudgingly obey the Vorta, as long as the Vorta control the White, but it's more than likely that many would rather die than to live without their Gods under Vorta leadership.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2004-10-19 01:54pm

Could the Vorta even have manufactured the white on their own? Sure they distribited it, but that is not the same as manufacturing it.

Bellator · Post by **Bellator** » 2004-10-19 02:04pm

The Vorta can most likely manufacture White on their own. As I recall, even the Son'a manufactured it.

The problem isn't with the White, it's with the JH's programming. White is simply a back up tool.

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2004-10-19 09:08pm

Admiral_K wrote:Well, we did end with a stalemate of sorts. Its not as if the Federation managed to invade and conquer dominion space in the gamma quadrant.

The Federation never wanted to do that. That's like saying the Allies didn't win WWII because Japan didn't become the 51st US state.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2004-10-19 09:53pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:and the Borg Collective possess thousands of them, the math seems to favor the Borg pretty heavily. This doesn't even take into account the undoubtably large number of other craft, like spheres, and even those can engage a fleet of thirty Federation starships (ref STVOY "Endgame").
Actual ref: more masturbatory Borg-wank bullshit. We did not actually see it engage this fleet.

Let Walper's stuff slide this time, Mike. It actually makes the Borg look worse. The Borg tangling with the Dominion is another example of their failure to achieve victory over an inferior opponent, due to their unwillingness to strike in suitable numbers.

Yes, the Borg have the numbers and firepower to whip the Dominion. That begs the question, why is the Dominion still there?

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2004-10-20 01:05am

Trogdor wrote:
Admiral_K wrote:Well, we did end with a stalemate of sorts. Its not as if the Federation managed to invade and conquer dominion space in the gamma quadrant.
The Federation never wanted to do that. That's like saying the Allies didn't win WWII because Japan didn't become the 51st US state.

Um, actually NO thats not the same. I never said that they had to annex the dominion in order to "win".

I'll remind you that Japan WAS occupied for time by the U.S. military at the end of WWII. They had surrendered unconditionally.And even if they hadn't, their ability to make war on their opponents was destroyed.

This was not true of the dominion. While their forces in the Alpha Quadrant were defeated, they still were quite strong, and essentailly untouched in the Gamma Quadrant. Therefore, what happened was a "cease fire" while peace negotiations were worked out.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-10-20 01:54am

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:and the Borg Collective possess thousands of them, the math seems to favor the Borg pretty heavily. This doesn't even take into account the undoubtably large number of other craft, like spheres, and even those can engage a fleet of thirty Federation starships (ref STVOY "Endgame").
Actual ref: more masturbatory Borg-wank bullshit. We did not actually see it engage this fleet.
Let Walper's stuff slide this time, Mike. It actually makes the Borg look worse. The Borg tangling with the Dominion is another example of their failure to achieve victory over an inferior opponent, due to their unwillingness to strike in suitable numbers.

Yes, the Borg have the numbers and firepower to whip the Dominion. That begs the question, why is the Dominion still there?

Perhaps they had not been discovered yet?

If one accepts Enterprise, one could say the Federation was only discovered because the Borg sent back in time in FC sent a signal to the DQ.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-10-20 02:32am

Admiral_K wrote:This was not true of the dominion. While their forces in the Alpha Quadrant were defeated, they still were quite strong, and essentailly untouched in the Gamma Quadrant. Therefore, what happened was a "cease fire" while peace negotiations were worked out.

Indeed. Despite the Treaty of Bajor, the Dominion is still a very real threat to the Alpha Quadrant and unless Odo succeeds in teaching the Link that the Solids are not a threat, there's always the possibility of Dominion War, Round 2...

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-10-20 03:57am

JME2 wrote:
Admiral_K wrote:This was not true of the dominion. While their forces in the Alpha Quadrant were defeated, they still were quite strong, and essentailly untouched in the Gamma Quadrant. Therefore, what happened was a "cease fire" while peace negotiations were worked out.
Indeed. Despite the Treaty of Bajor, the Dominion is still a very real threat to the Alpha Quadrant and unless Odo succeeds in teaching the Link that the Solids are not a threat, there's always the possibility of Dominion War, Round 2...

It's also possible that Sisko as a Prophet will protect the AQ.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-20 05:00am

Gandalf wrote:It's also possible that Sisko as a Prophet will protect the AQ.

It would have been nice if the Prophet Helping the Federation angle was restricted to cryptic advice and foreshadowing. Seeing a battlefleet wiped away with a wave of the hand was a complete slap in the face. Seeing it for DW Round Two? No way.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-10-20 05:08am

Stofsk wrote:
Gandalf wrote:It's also possible that Sisko as a Prophet will protect the AQ.
It would have been nice if the Prophet Helping the Federation angle was restricted to cryptic advice and foreshadowing. Seeing a battlefleet wiped away with a wave of the hand was a complete slap in the face. Seeing it for DW Round Two? No way.

Not necessarily in the same way, but couldn't they restrict travel through the wormhole? I'm pretty sure that's what happened in Emissary?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-20 05:19am

Gandalf wrote:Not necessarily in the same way, but couldn't they restrict travel through the wormhole? I'm pretty sure that's what happened in Emissary?

Yes, they did. Which kinda makes sense. However, what doesn't make sense is the Prophets waving their hands and disappearing a thousand ships. First of all, Emissary showed us they could deny passage, so why not go with that? (ie, no need for a minefield too) Secondly, if their influence was restricted to foreshadowing and cryptic advice the show would have been much better, certainly better than a random deus ex machina thrown in there without justification. Thirdly, getting involved so overtly is against the Prophet's nature - they don't understand corporeal creatures, remember? And they MOST certainly don't like belligerent corporeal creatures. Remember when the Prophets were just wormhole aliens? Then somewhere along the line the writers began to forget that and started writing them as though they were ACTUAL gods.

Bellator · Post by **Bellator** » 2004-10-20 07:18am

Yes, the Borg have the numbers and firepower to whip the Dominion. That begs the question, why is the Dominion still there?

Questions like this have been answered over and over and over and over again. The Borg don't just conquer, they assimilate species who's biological and technological distinctiveness is of use to them.

Also, the Borg only control a portion of the galaxy. (far) less than 25%. The Borg and both the Federation and the Dominion are literally on the other side of the galaxy.

Although the Borg may try to assimilate them, both the UFP and the Dominion are of relatively little use to the Borg. They are far away, and most likely have little biological or technological traits the Borg really want, that are worth sending a armada of Cubes to the other side of the galaxy for. That's why they'd rather attack S8472, who weren't even from this dimension. They already felt that species in our galaxy were hardly worth any real effort.

Then somewhere along the line the writers began to forget that and started writing them as though they were ACTUAL gods.

They didn't forget it, they deliberatly blurred the lines between god/alien.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-20 07:23am

Bellator wrote:
I wrote:Then somewhere along the line the writers began to forget that and started writing them as though they were ACTUAL gods.
They didn't forget it, they deliberatly blurred the lines between god/alien.

Incorrect. The Wormhole aliens never considered themselves gods, nor did they have anything to do with the Bajorans or their religion. The Bajorans themselves constructed a religion around the Wormhole aliens, calling them the Prophets, due to the face the Orbs provided visions of future events to people who touched them.

[EDIT] It's a matter of perspective. The Wormhole aliens was what Sisko and Starfleet viewed them, the Prophets was how the Bajorans viewed them. But the writers started making them deliberate gods, how else do you account for the Kira-prophet versus Jake-pah wraith episode in the 6th Season? Or the episode where the pah wraiths were first introduced, the Assignment? They were 'former' prophets who were 'expelled' from the 'celestial temple'. Sound familiar?

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Could the Dominion have won ?

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