Next time someone makes excuses for packing crates ...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-04 09:09am

Gil Hamilton wrote:It begs the question, in my mind, why they didn't try to get a bar and shift open the door the manual way. After all, we've seen people like Worf and Data force open motorized doors in StarTrek. Sisko is a strong dude, a bar should provide enough leverage for him to crack open the door enough for them to open it. Trying to cut open the door seems like overkill.

Not high-tech enough.

I mean, they've got crowbars on DS9, right?

I wouldn't count on that. The power systems all over the station were down. They probably have some kind of "field-effect transducer" or something, which doesn't work when there's a full moon or there's "exogenoblahblah radiation" in the area.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-10-04 09:16am

Well, it could be a crowbar with a fancy looking computer display on it and they could call it a "Manual Multi-Use Mechanical Advantage Inducement Rod".

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-10-04 09:30am

Gil Hamilton wrote:Well, it could be a crowbar with a fancy looking computer display on it and they could call it a "Manual Multi-Use Mechanical Advantage Inducement Rod".

Still not high-tech enough. Maybe if you include forcefields, a Subspace Leverage Increase Effector and the propability of a power cell cookoff.
Problem is that would propably be rendered inoperative as per Mike's scenario.

Nevermind the crowbar, how about anything mechanical, powered or otherwise? How about a power drill to take out the lock, or a ram, hell, how about explosives?
Yet Star Trek ALWAYS goes the thermal/technobabble route. One wonders if the Technobabble Industry Lobby somehow managed to implement a quadrant-wide Mechanical Implements Ban...

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-10-04 11:17am

I don't want to even use a drill or explosives on the door. Shifting the door open a bit with a crowbar while it's unpowered then have them lift it enough to slip something under it to hold it up has the added advantage that O'Brien won't have to install a new door later on.

Besides, it would be a good excuse for the shows producers to have a manly scene where Sisko goes "Hurrk!" and prys the door open on sheer strength with the bar, since I don't believe at this point Worf is on the show yet to do those sorts of things, as Kira can casually slip a box under the door. Then Sisko can give her a macho nod.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2004-10-04 02:49pm

Only when the power levels are far, far higher. No doubt if a hand phaser actually had the kind of power output often attributed to them, this would not be a problem.

The example was simply to prove that phasers are capable of vaporizing/melting metal.

Unless toranium is mechanically piss-weak.

Thats certainly a possibility- however that would not prevent its usage as an "armor" on the outer hull of the ship. We've seen no such usage.

Given this, I think its much more likely that toranium simply has a much lower vaporizing/melting threshold then standard starship materials but is thermally (phaserly?) superconductive. This would make it useful for security puposes, since the amount of toranium available to absorb energy, if it were in an interconnected system, would exceed the amount of energy a hand phaser, or several, could discharge at it. However, on a starship, the whole thing would vaporize/melt after a shot or two- there wouldn't be enough toranium to absorb the energy output of a ship based phaser.

Then explain why it sparks and melts from the beam coming out of a "bipolar torch". It wasn't much bigger than the Type II phaser.

Perhaps a "bipolar torch" focuses a similar amount of energy on a far smaller area. This would allow it to "cut" its point of contact even while the heat was being spread over the entireity of the toranium "system".

Incidently, this would also explain why it was taking Sisco so damn long to cut through the door. The area being cut would be very small, while the heat, in the areas surrounding the "cut", would rapidly flow to other areas of the system- meaning that they would have to be heated directly (which would take longer).

Sorry, the only thing which explains this is that toranium is simply exceptionally phaser-resistant

I'm just trying to explain why that would be the case. In other words, provide a mechanism for WHY its excepetionally phaser resistant.

My explaination is that the metal is themally superconductive and has a large amount of "material" to absorb the energy of a shot (a property humans do not share).

and that starships overcome the material-dependence of phasers via sheer power output, which hand phasers do not have.

I agree with that. However, since every weapon ever designed is materially dependent I'm not exactly sure what your point is.

[/quote]

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-04 03:41pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:The example was simply to prove that phasers are capable of vaporizing/melting metal.

Irrelevant then, since I was not asserting that every metal in existence is like toranium,

Unless toranium is mechanically piss-weak.
Thats certainly a possibility- however that would not prevent its usage as an "armor" on the outer hull of the ship. We've seen no such usage.

If it's a thick layer, it would impact on the strength of the hull. If it's a thin layer, it will be easily overwhelmed by sheer power input.

Given this, I think its much more likely that toranium simply has a much lower vaporizing/melting threshold then standard starship materials but is thermally (phaserly?) superconductive. This would make it useful for security puposes, since the amount of toranium available to absorb energy, if it were in an interconnected system, would exceed the amount of energy a hand phaser, or several, could discharge at it. However, on a starship, the whole thing would vaporize/melt after a shot or two- there wouldn't be enough toranium to absorb the energy output of a ship based phaser.

Utterly nonsensical, since we can clearly see that a small region of the toranium is being heated to incandescence by the bipolar torch: not possible if it is thermally superconductive.

Then explain why it sparks and melts from the beam coming out of a "bipolar torch". It wasn't much bigger than the Type II phaser.
Perhaps a "bipolar torch" focuses a similar amount of energy on a far smaller area. This would allow it to "cut" its point of contact even while the heat was being spread over the entireity of the toranium "system".

You didn't even bother looking at the pictures, did you?

Incidently, this would also explain why it was taking Sisco so damn long to cut through the door. The area being cut would be very small, while the heat, in the areas surrounding the "cut", would rapidly flow to other areas of the system- meaning that they would have to be heated directly (which would take longer).

Nice theory. Too bad it bears no resemblance to the facts under discussion.

Sorry, the only thing which explains this is that toranium is simply exceptionally phaser-resistant
I'm just trying to explain why that would be the case. In other words, provide a mechanism for WHY its excepetionally phaser resistant.

One which directly contradicts the facts at hand.

My explaination is that the metal is themally superconductive and has a large amount of "material" to absorb the energy of a shot (a property humans do not share).

You really need to work on this "base the theory on facts" concept.

and that starships overcome the material-dependence of phasers via sheer power output, which hand phasers do not have.
I agree with that. However, since every weapon ever designed is materially dependent I'm not exactly sure what your point is.

Some are far more dependent than others. Phasers appear to be far more material-dependent than any conventional weapon ever designed.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-04 06:48pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Well, it could be a crowbar with a fancy looking computer display on it and they could call it a "Manual Multi-Use Mechanical Advantage Inducement Rod".

How about a crowbar with a holographic tip and buttons and flashing lights on it?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-04 08:45pm

Praxis wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:Well, it could be a crowbar with a fancy looking computer display on it and they could call it a "Manual Multi-Use Mechanical Advantage Inducement Rod".
How about a crowbar with a holographic tip and buttons and flashing lights on it?

Don't laugh. In one episode of DS9, Nog was exercising with a pair of dumbbells that had Okudagrams on them. I shit you not.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-04 09:20pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Praxis wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:Well, it could be a crowbar with a fancy looking computer display on it and they could call it a "Manual Multi-Use Mechanical Advantage Inducement Rod".
How about a crowbar with a holographic tip and buttons and flashing lights on it?
Don't laugh. In one episode of DS9, Nog was exercising with a pair of dumbbells that had Okudagrams on them. I shit you not.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-10-04 10:50pm

Praxis wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Praxis wrote: How about a crowbar with a holographic tip and buttons and flashing lights on it?
Don't laugh. In one episode of DS9, Nog was exercising with a pair of dumbbells that had Okudagrams on them. I shit you not.

That's actually what I was refering to with the fancy lookign computer display on the crowbar.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-10-05 04:22am

Why don't they walk to the nearest replicator and replicate a "jaws of life" firefighter's device from the 1970s?

In a similar circumstance in TOS' "The Naked Time", Scotty didn't bother to cut through the reinforced door to Engineering. He cut through the bulkhead to gain access to the door controls.

nasor · Post by **nasor** » 2004-10-05 11:35am

If you can make a thin layer of material that's very resistant to phaser fire, one would have to wonder why nobody in the Trek universe makes body armor out of it.

Not that the trek universe inhabitants seem to be tactical geniuses or anything.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-05 11:45am

nasor wrote:Not that the trek universe inhabitants seem to be tactical geniuses or anything.

You can say that again. They have SO MANY things they can use, and they never do.

In Insurrection we learn that you can drop your enemies' shields long enough to use transporters by hitting them with some kind of tachyon pulse. So a runabout could easily destroy a Romulan Warbird. How? Hit it with a tachyon pulse, then beam a bomb into the engine room. Bada-boom, it's over.

Why don't they ever beam explosives (or even their warp core) in front of an enemy vessel? Why don't cloaked ships ever ram or destroy stations (as seen in the DS9 episode where O'brien sees possible futures, where a Warbird decloaks and nukes the shield generators before they go up, then wipes out DS9 single-handedly)? Why don't they EVER use their technobabble solutions after they're done using them in an episode?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-05 12:19pm

nasor wrote:If you can make a thin layer of material that's very resistant to phaser fire, one would have to wonder why nobody in the Trek universe makes body armor out of it.

Well, "thin" for a building and "thin" for a man are two different things. Suppose this stuff is as dense as uranium; you wouldn't want to be walking around with full-body armour plating made of it. Maybe it's even mildly radioactive, hence the fact that it's covered up by a surface coating.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-10-05 12:36pm

nasor wrote:If you can make a thin layer of material that's very resistant to phaser fire, one would have to wonder why nobody in the Trek universe makes body armor out of it.

Not that the trek universe inhabitants seem to be tactical geniuses or anything.

In addition to what Mike said that material could that rare that can special application like blastdoors, but making armor for troopers out of it would be too expensive.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-05 12:40pm

Darth Wong wrote:
nasor wrote:If you can make a thin layer of material that's very resistant to phaser fire, one would have to wonder why nobody in the Trek universe makes body armor out of it.
Well, "thin" for a building and "thin" for a man are two different things. Suppose this stuff is as dense as uranium; you wouldn't want to be walking around with full-body armour plating made of it. Maybe it's even mildly radioactive, hence the fact that it's covered up by a surface coating.

You know, slightly off topic...
Could Star Wars make an ultra-dense armor for troops? It'd be expensive, but think about it. Make a thick, ultra dense armor that would normally crush a man. Put a computer system in it (very small computer), and attach repulsorlift units all over it. The computer measures gravity and uses the repulsors to push against it just enough that you feel no weight from the armor on your back. Couldn't that work?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-10-05 12:57pm

Praxis wrote:You know, slightly off topic...
Could Star Wars make an ultra-dense armor for troops? It'd be expensive, but think about it. Make a thick, ultra dense armor that would normally crush a man. Put a computer system in it (very small computer), and attach repulsorlift units all over it. The computer measures gravity and uses the repulsors to push against it just enough that you feel no weight from the armor on your back. Couldn't that work?

You mean like Darktroopers? Yeah. They can do it.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-05 01:33pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Praxis wrote:You know, slightly off topic...
Could Star Wars make an ultra-dense armor for troops? It'd be expensive, but think about it. Make a thick, ultra dense armor that would normally crush a man. Put a computer system in it (very small computer), and attach repulsorlift units all over it. The computer measures gravity and uses the repulsors to push against it just enough that you feel no weight from the armor on your back. Couldn't that work?
You mean like Darktroopers? Yeah. They can do it.

Ah, darktrooper suits have repulsorlifts to make them lighter? Cool. Well, the armor doesn't work that well in Battlefront

But they can take on Droidekas in Battlegrounds...and games are non-canon. How do they fair in the comics?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-10-05 01:41pm

Praxis wrote:Ah, darktrooper suits have repulsorlifts to make them lighter? Cool. Well, the armor doesn't work that well in Battlefront But they can take on Droidekas in Battlegrounds...and games are non-canon. How do they fair in the comics?

games very low-canon Battleground Darktrooper (phase 1&2) closer "true" version while in Battlefront (phase 3) it's weaker for game balance. (in Dark Forces(and other EU) you needed anti-tank weapons to stop Phase 3 Dark Trooper.)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-05 04:28pm

Nevertheless, it would be foolish to equip an entire army this way. A small group of shocktroopers OK, but not an army. Not only would it be hideously expensive, but it would make them very technologically vulnerable. In an environment where the antigrav technology or other technologies don't work so well (and it's not as if we haven't seen these), your whole army becomes useless.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2004-10-06 04:24am

Anyway, for the record, I conceed. It was a fun argument to play devil's advocate with.