Would you go through the transporter?

Sharpshooter · Post by **Sharpshooter** » 2004-09-23 12:24am

Hell no: even if "I" continue to exist after using the thing, I won't. Physically, I know "I'd" still be intact, barring freak accident: "I" would have the same physical makeup, the same personality, turn-ons and turn-offs, knowledge and memory, remarkable and defficient attributes. There's no guarentee, however, that my one, singular consciousness will remain intact, somehow transplanting itself into the physical shell that is created: there might be another, identical in all mental attributes, but it still won't be me.

If it comes down to being damned if I do and damned if I don't...I'd rather die knowing that I'll be resting in peace, instead of having an identical being claiming to be me traipsing around the galaxy, Besides, the galaxy doesn't need my genes: there's enough piss-poor samples in the pool already without adding another one.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2004-09-23 12:36am

Excuse me, all ye transporter-bashers. Out of 178 TNG episodes I can only find 3 that involve anything funky going on with the transporter. One of those being the Barclay thing which doesn't really count as anything going wrong with the transporter itself.

Other incidents:

-Picard, Keiko O'Brien, Guinan, and Ro changed to children in TNG: Rascals (can't find anything about the cause)
- William Riker duplicated in TNG "Second Chances" (environmental interference)
-Commander Sonak killed in ST:TMP (bona fide accident)
-Kirk split in TOS "The Enemy Within" (caused by transporting a substance that damaged the transporter)
-Tuvix created in VOY "Tuvix" (caused by transporting an organism that reproduced by melding existing lifeforms)
-Weyoun 5 killed in DS9 "Treachery, Faith, and the Great River" (cause unknown, but most likely terrorism)
- Dax, Bashir, and Sisko sent back in time in DS9 "Past Tense" (extremely rare chroniton burst that required the presence of the cloaking device)
- Kirk and co. sent to mirror universe in TOS "Mirror, Mirror" (ion storm)
- EMH's mobile emitter infected by Seven of Nine's nanoprobes in VOY "One" (can't find anything about the cause)
- LaForge and Ro pushed out of 'phase' in TNG "The Next Phase" (caused by beaming off of a Romulan ship with a phase cloak)

There are various episodes involving the Mirror Universe on DS9, but IIRC the travel between universes in those episodes was deliberate. I also remember one transporter assassination on DS9 but can't find the episode reference. But like most of the above, it was caused by outside interference.

Now...anybody got the number of transporter trips we've seen? I'd be fine with counting a trip where multiple people are beamed at once as a single trip, since most of the accidents involving multiple people affected every person being transported. If we can find that, I'd love to compare the rate to accident rates for planes or cars.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-23 12:54am

Are you people fucking blind? The transporter does NOT kill you. You remain concious throughout the ENTIRE event and can even move and interact within the matter stream.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-09-23 12:57am

Alyeska, the transporter's very means of operation means that it has to kill you (for however short of an instant) to complete the transfer.

Regarding the perspective thing, who's to say that the time between death and duplication isn't on the plank scale? From the perspective of the copy made after the original's death, it could seem as if nothing happened.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-23 01:02am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Alyeska, the transporter's very means of operation means that it has to kill you (for however short of an instant) to complete the transfer.

Regarding the perspective thing, who's to say that the time between death and duplication isn't on the plank scale? From the perspective of the copy made after the original's death, it could seem as if nothing happened.

Barclay's experience within the Transporter makes this highly unlikely. You see the ENTIRE event from his perspective and even in the time between points you can still move about AND interact with other objects within the stream. Infact people have managed to live in a transporter matter stream that wasn't even active between two ships. Transporters are actualy much different then what we think. The episode with Barclay raises a hell of a lot of questions.

Butterbean569 · Post by **Butterbean569** » 2004-09-23 02:06am

I'd go far enough out on a limb to say that I would *love* to be transported, even if those were the circumstances. If any of you develop a transporter, call me up because I'd be a willing test subject. Even if I die, I'd be the first person to be transported

hehe

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2004-09-23 02:16am

Alyeska wrote:Are you people fucking blind? The transporter does NOT kill you. You remain concious throughout the ENTIRE event and can even move and interact within the matter stream.

Which contradicts all sorts of stated aspects of transporter operation, but can't really be disregarded.

::slaps B&B for that and for Paris saying ships can't turn at warp::

Question, Alyeska...what do you do when you can't find any reconciliation between contradictory events? Like Odo getting knocked out by a rock on the head when his head isn't even real?

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-09-23 03:02am

Rihannsu Science Officer wrote:I'd do it. Hardly anybody in the galaxy has a problem with it, what's it matter if I'm actually the 2000th clone of myself if there aren't 1999 other guys competing for my identity?

The problem is if you are transported you die and a clone of you appears.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-23 08:24am

IUnknown wrote:
Rihannsu Science Officer wrote:I'd do it. Hardly anybody in the galaxy has a problem with it, what's it matter if I'm actually the 2000th clone of myself if there aren't 1999 other guys competing for my identity?
The problem is if you are transported you die and a clone of you appears.

WRONG. Fucking READ what has been written.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-09-23 08:30am

Alyeska wrote:
IUnknown wrote:
Rihannsu Science Officer wrote:I'd do it. Hardly anybody in the galaxy has a problem with it, what's it matter if I'm actually the 2000th clone of myself if there aren't 1999 other guys competing for my identity?
The problem is if you are transported you die and a clone of you appears.
WRONG. Fucking READ what has been written.

Behold, another SDN myth crushed by the mighty Alyeska. *bows*

Serisouly, I've seen that Barclay episode several times, but I never thought of it in transporter principles/operation debates.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-09-23 08:41am

Metrion Cascade wrote:Excuse me, all ye transporter-bashers. Out of 178 TNG episodes I can only find 3 that involve anything funky going on with the transporter. One of those being the Barclay thing which doesn't really count as anything going wrong with the transporter itself.

Other incidents:

-Picard, Keiko O'Brien, Guinan, and Ro changed to children in TNG: Rascals (can't find anything about the cause)
- William Riker duplicated in TNG "Second Chances" (environmental interference)
-Commander Sonak killed in ST:TMP (bona fide accident)
-Kirk split in TOS "The Enemy Within" (caused by transporting a substance that damaged the transporter)
-Tuvix created in VOY "Tuvix" (caused by transporting an organism that reproduced by melding existing lifeforms)
-Weyoun 5 killed in DS9 "Treachery, Faith, and the Great River" (cause unknown, but most likely terrorism)
- Dax, Bashir, and Sisko sent back in time in DS9 "Past Tense" (extremely rare chroniton burst that required the presence of the cloaking device)
- Kirk and co. sent to mirror universe in TOS "Mirror, Mirror" (ion storm)
- EMH's mobile emitter infected by Seven of Nine's nanoprobes in VOY "One" (can't find anything about the cause)
- LaForge and Ro pushed out of 'phase' in TNG "The Next Phase" (caused by beaming off of a Romulan ship with a phase cloak)

There are various episodes involving the Mirror Universe on DS9, but IIRC the travel between universes in those episodes was deliberate. I also remember one transporter assassination on DS9 but can't find the episode reference. But like most of the above, it was caused by outside interference.

Now...anybody got the number of transporter trips we've seen? I'd be fine with counting a trip where multiple people are beamed at once as a single trip, since most of the accidents involving multiple people affected every person being transported. If we can find that, I'd love to compare the rate to accident rates for planes or cars.

how many tens of billions of people live in the federation? Not to mention that this technology is used by every alpha quadrant power, the borg, the dominion.... etc etc. Thousands of people are killed in the world every day in transportation accidents now.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-09-23 10:27am

Alyeska wrote:
IUnknown wrote:
Rihannsu Science Officer wrote:I'd do it. Hardly anybody in the galaxy has a problem with it, what's it matter if I'm actually the 2000th clone of myself if there aren't 1999 other guys competing for my identity?
The problem is if you are transported you die and a clone of you appears.
WRONG. Fucking READ what has been written.

Alright I checked the Barclay episode and found out you are right and I am wrong. I stand corrected.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-09-23 11:40am

Alyeska wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Alyeska, the transporter's very means of operation means that it has to kill you (for however short of an instant) to complete the transfer.

Regarding the perspective thing, who's to say that the time between death and duplication isn't on the plank scale? From the perspective of the copy made after the original's death, it could seem as if nothing happened.
Barclay's experience within the Transporter makes this highly unlikely. You see the ENTIRE event from his perspective and even in the time between points you can still move about AND interact with other objects within the stream. Infact people have managed to live in a transporter matter stream that wasn't even active between two ships. Transporters are actualy much different then what we think. The episode with Barclay raises a hell of a lot of questions.

Sorta. Remember the episode with the Dyson Sphere? Remember Scotty was trapped in the transporter for what, 50 years? He hadn't aged a *day*.
I'd say it kept his particles intact but he wasn't conscious during the whole thing or he'd have starved to death or something.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-09-23 11:41am

Metrion Cascade wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Are you people fucking blind? The transporter does NOT kill you. You remain concious throughout the ENTIRE event and can even move and interact within the matter stream.
Which contradicts all sorts of stated aspects of transporter operation, but can't really be disregarded.

::slaps B&B for that and for Paris saying ships can't turn at warp::

Question, Alyeska...what do you do when you can't find any reconciliation between contradictory events? Like Odo getting knocked out by a rock on the head when his head isn't even real?

I remember that, and I remember being confused about it. However, I forgot when it happened.

Could it have happened after the changelings had turned him into a human? Or was it before?

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2004-09-23 12:16pm

Sorta. Remember the episode with the Dyson Sphere? Remember Scotty was trapped in the transporter for what, 50 years? He hadn't aged a *day*.
I'd say it kept his particles intact but he wasn't conscious during the whole thing or he'd have starved to death or something.

Wait, how would he starve to death if his particles are all preserved? That and the lack of aging implies no metabolism, I should think.

Anyway, no current theory of transporter operation covers all the bases, which is partly why I would so go through one.

Besides, there are billions and billions of citizens who go through the transporters; if accidents really were common, word would get out. The fact that just about no one ever cares is decent evidence they are, in fact, quite safe. Especially within their operatin parameters *referes to Metrion's list* nearly all acidents are because of environmental effects, or deliberate actions.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-09-23 12:56pm

Would you go through the transporter?

HELL NO, I WON´T GO!

speaker-to-trolls · Post by **speaker-to-trolls** » 2004-09-23 01:38pm

The choice is between certain death and almost certain death, so I think I'd hedge my bets with almost certain.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-23 01:48pm

speaker-to-trolls wrote:The choice is between certain death and almost certain death, so I think I'd hedge my bets with almost certain.

READ THE FUCKING THREAD! Transporters DO NO KILL YOU.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-09-23 01:54pm

Alyeska wrote:Transporter doesn't kill you. You stay awake during the whole process, even when you are contained within the system waiting for transport to start on the other end.

So Scotty was awake all that time in the buffer in Relics? That must suck.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-23 02:40pm

Stravo wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Transporter doesn't kill you. You stay awake during the whole process, even when you are contained within the system waiting for transport to start on the other end.
So Scotty was awake all that time in the buffer in Relics? That must suck.

I'm not entirely sure on that. Its almost like the transporter buffer exists incase the transport itself is screwed up. That way you have a "backup" so to speak. The buffer only ever appears to be used when the transport process is interupted or modified.

Another interesting way to look at what goes on is to take something from the Chriton book Timeline. For a reason they can't explain people remain concious durring the transition affect even when they physicaly shouldn't be able to. In other words its an explination of a "soul" so to speak. And the essense of people has been identified in Trek before. So it is possible that your in a cloned body while somehow your "soul" or essence is transfered.

What I am trying to say is the whole "your killed and cloned" piece just doesn't fit all the facts and isn't cut and dried. Hell, even Stargate doesn't do that. Your dematerialized for transport, yet aware of the event while it happens (the whole stargate view is what you see while you transfer).

I think its a way for the writers of a series to get around the whole death with a clone issue.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-09-23 03:28pm

Alyeska wrote:Are you people fucking blind? The transporter does NOT kill you. You remain concious throughout the ENTIRE event and can even move and interact within the matter stream.

Would we notice it if there was a brief discontinuity in our consciousness, like say one thousandth of a second? Probably not. But it would be enough time for the transporter to kill a person and then clone him from the same parts, which is what the transporter is stated to do over and over again throughout the series..serieses(?).

We know that people are being disassembled and turned into a pattern of information from the way the transporter works. Just because Barclay had input in his brain saying he was the same Barclay throughout the transporter sequence doesn't mean it's true.

Even if you think you are conscious throughout the whole endevour, the very description of what the transporter does makes it equivalent to death and then cloning. Hell, if it was just carrying a person to the ship intact, where the hell did Thomas Riker come from? The transporter obviously cloned him, but it either did it twice or just forgot to kill the original.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-09-23 03:34pm

The transporter certainly does disassemble you and reassemble you. This was the precise reason that Bones hated the things and wouldn't step foot on one unless he absolutely had to, because he was really uncomfortable with the idea of being "broken up into a million pieces" as he put it.

We even know that the transporters do clone people on the pad, since is the whole premise behind Thomas Riker. When they beamed him up at the wrong moment, they had boosted his signal with a second beam. Unfortunately, one of the signals got bounced back to the ground thanks to inclement weather and the other returned to the ship, so the transporter reassembled one Riker on the surface of the planet and one on the transporter pad. This incident is impossible to rationalize if you think that the person being transported is alive and conscious the whole time.

Tuvix as well. The transporters accidently reassembling Tuvok and Neelix into a singular organism is a bit tricky to explain if both of them and that plant were whole and awake the entire time. They had to have been broken down to information, otherwise the computer couldn't have made a hybrid.

As for the topic at hand, sure, I'd beam up. After all, myidentical clone has my mind and mind state and everything I have. For all practical purposes, as long as the transporter work, I didn't really die, but just took a break from existance for a few seconds.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-09-23 03:35pm

The Silence and I wrote:
Sorta. Remember the episode with the Dyson Sphere? Remember Scotty was trapped in the transporter for what, 50 years? He hadn't aged a *day*.
I'd say it kept his particles intact but he wasn't conscious during the whole thing or he'd have starved to death or something.
Wait, how would he starve to death if his particles are all preserved? That and the lack of aging implies no metabolism, I should think.

Alright, but surely you'd grant that someone who spent 50 years awake in a sensory deprivation chamber/matter stream would be stark, spittle-flinging insane when he was released. He should have at least had a heart attack and some mild mindless gibbering before the doc could fix him up.

And in the Barclay episode, each standard transport seems to take about a dozen seconds. From an outside vantage point it's much quicker, like 3 seconds, so there must be some sort of time expansion or something for people caught in a matter stream. This means Scotty's been locked in there by himself for roughly 200 years from his perspective!

How could he be conscious the whole time and still be the Scotty we know and love?

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2004-09-23 03:36pm

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:or just forgot to kill the original.

Why on Earth would a transporter be designed to kill the original body? Nevermind if that's what it actually does; if it were capable of keeping the original "alive" it shouldn't be a mistake if they are still around.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-09-23 04:00pm

It isn't a simple process of scanning the original, killing them and then making a new one.

When Picard lost his physical body in "Lonely Among Us" they could only remake him on the transporter pad by getting his "energy" (his non corporeal consciousness, in a similar fashion to Trek's numerous gas entities) back into the transporter, this "energy" is unique to the individual and therefore must survive the transporter process.

Given that information I think the transport must scan a person, turn them into this conscious energy (i.e. the treks take on the Soul) move them up to the receiving transporter and then change the energy back into the form it was on the planet.

The incident with Thomas Riker probably involved the weird atmospheric phenomena duplicating his "energy" and allowing it to rematerialise on the planet.