Romulans get 20 Scimitars

[Luzifer's right hand]

Sneak 10 cloaked Scimis into Fed space, 10 into Klingon space. Decloak one over Qo'nos, one over Earth, one over Vulan, and one over every other major planet. Nuke it. Done.

They get wiped out while they're spending eight full minutes charging.

By what? IT always seems to be the case that there are never more than 1 or 2 vessels in range of the earth during a crisis and it took longer than 8:00 for the best vessel in the fleet to knock out 1 Scimitar, and that was with help and with a cheap "ass ram them then beam in a guy to attack the reactor because the remans are idiots and don't have any real gaurds stationed" tatic...

The defenses of earth destroyed a breen fleet before it was able to inflict more than minor damage to earth in a DS9 episode IIRC.

And the post dominion war Federation had no poblem to gather a small fleet 1 lightyear from Sol in no time(Voyager and the Borg Sphere were already in transwarp when the admirals dispatched the ships).

[Alyeska]

Scimitar class ships are impressive and have good cloaks, but I see no reason why they can't be detected by dedicated sensor platforms. Gravitic sensors can detect cloaked ships as it is and there is no indication the Scimitar can hide from that. I suspect the Federation sensor network along with science ships and Nebula AWACs are more then sufficent to detect Scimitar class ships. All we know is that the Scimitar has a cloak sufficently stealth that a Sovereign can't detect her.

Geordi's claim that the cloak was "perfect" would seem to rule out detection of a Scimitar by any Federation vessel.

Geordis claims are limited on the equipment he has available to him. Dedicated sensor or scientific platforms are going to have more powerful and variable sensors for use. I wouldn't be surprised if a Galaxy class has better sensors given its explorer designation.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The moment the Scimitar makes it presence known the Federation would adopt proper combat tactics.

The Federation uses proper combat tactics?

First the Scimitars would have to get through the Federation boarder. That won't be easy.

The new generation of ships are getting faster all the time. I'd be surprised if it cannot just circumvent the (what? 10LY wide) Neutral Zone most seeded with sensors.

Last of all, the cloak is a minor issue when the Scimitar is constantly firing its weapons. Notice in Nemesis that when the Scimitar was firing the Enterprise almost always scored return shots. The firing through the cloak bit is at best a first strike option.

It didn't help, as someone else pointed out, that Shinzon was using ranges that allowed Snapshot Counterfire on Bearing particularly feasible.

I suspect the situation in FC came about because Picard had to translate the coordinates in his head. I have no doubt that auto targets can be relayed through the fleet.

That spot should have been designated as a target by the E-E's combat system and auto-transmitted throughout the fleet. All the other ships should have to do is put their things into Slave Mode.

Possible, but I find that unlikely. Given the sheer size of its sensor platform I have little doubt it can brute force the Scimitar cloak with active scans. While this means the Scimitar can avoid Nebulas like that, if its targets are protected by fleets with AWACs Nebulas, it has little choice.

But remember sensors are under the Inverse Square Law. And that Sovereign cannot detect it even at Point Blank. There is a limit to how much more power the sensors can draw off the smaller power generation system of the Neb and how much of an advantage the larger antennas would give it in terms of sensitivity.

And can cloaks be "brute-forced"? Or is is all sensitivity to pick up ever smaller and harder to detect residual emissions?

[Alyeska]

The Dominion proved that Cloaks can be brute forced. Thats how they detected the Defiant. Sisko learned from this and showed the Dominion how to brute force the Defiant when Tom Riker had control of it.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The Dominion proved that Cloaks can be brute forced. Thats how they detected the Defiant. Sisko learned from this and showed the Dominion how to brute force the Defiant when Tom Riker had control of it.

Inference: ST cloaks are potentially useless against powerful SW vessels with their far greater power generation

[Stores away this for later reference]

[Alyeska]

I hadn't thought about that, but it does make sense. Its possible that SW can defeat something that they normaly don't deal with because of sheer power in their sensor systems.

[Howedar]

Scimitar class ships are impressive and have good cloaks, but I see no reason why they can't be detected by dedicated sensor platforms. Gravitic sensors can detect cloaked ships as it is and there is no indication the Scimitar can hide from that. I suspect the Federation sensor network along with science ships and Nebula AWACs are more then sufficent to detect Scimitar class ships. All we know is that the Scimitar has a cloak sufficently stealth that a Sovereign can't detect her.

Geordi's claim that the cloak was "perfect" would seem to rule out detection of a Scimitar by any Federation vessel.

Geordis claims are limited on the equipment he has available to him. Dedicated sensor or scientific platforms are going to have more powerful and variable sensors for use. I wouldn't be surprised if a Galaxy class has better sensors given its explorer designation.

The non-canon classification of the Galaxy as an explorer (versus whatever the Sovereign is) is immaterial. It seems entirely plausible that the Sovereign, being decades more advanced than GCSs and NCSs, has the best sensors in Starfleet.

[Crazedwraith]

The Dominion proved that Cloaks can be brute forced. Thats how they detected the Defiant. Sisko learned from this and showed the Dominion how to brute force the Defiant when Tom Riker had control of it.

You mean the cardies dont ya? Not the Dominion, the Defiant incident was before the Dom/Card Alliance.

[Alyeska]

Geordi's claim that the cloak was "perfect" would seem to rule out detection of a Scimitar by any Federation vessel.

Geordis claims are limited on the equipment he has available to him. Dedicated sensor or scientific platforms are going to have more powerful and variable sensors for use. I wouldn't be surprised if a Galaxy class has better sensors given its explorer designation.

The non-canon classification of the Galaxy as an explorer (versus whatever the Sovereign is) is immaterial. It seems entirely plausible that the Sovereign, being decades more advanced than GCSs and NCSs, has the best sensors in Starfleet.

The Sovereign is at best a decade more advanced then the Galaxy/Nebula line. The Sovereign has a clear lack of certain elements that seemed prevalent in the Galaxy/Nebula line. Combine this with the TM designation of an Explorer for the Galaxy with the fairly obvious indication the Sovereign is more dedicated for war, one would conclude the Galaxy has a fair chance of having better sensors. All Good Things TNG indicates the Galaxy class has multiple sensor systems at its disposal for a variety of scientific purposes. A warship wouldn't bother with these.

[Alyeska]

The Dominion proved that Cloaks can be brute forced. Thats how they detected the Defiant. Sisko learned from this and showed the Dominion how to brute force the Defiant when Tom Riker had control of it.

Youm ean the cardies dont ya? Not the Dominion, the Defiant incident was before the Dom/Card Alliance.

Yeah, I meant the Cardassians.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The Sovereign is at best a decade more advanced then the Galaxy/Nebula line.

Which is enough for a full advance of generation. Certainly the reactor seems to be a whole new generation in terms of safety

The Sovereign has a clear lack of certain elements that seemed prevalent in the Galaxy/Nebula line.

Like (count only the ones in canon)?

Combine this with the TM designation of an Explorer for the Galaxy

Rule Violation. Other people are under no more obligation to comply with the TM's opinion than your opinion.

Besides, the only time I heard of a designation being applied to the Sovereign, it is an "Enhanced Deterrence Explorer".

All Good Things TNG indicates the Galaxy class has multiple sensor systems at its disposal for a variety of scientific purposes. A warship wouldn't bother with these.

However, given the fact that two of their potential enemies (Klingons and Romulans) got cloaks, if those extra sensors gave significant utility to detection of cloaked ships, wouldn't that give the warship a reason to have those as well.

[Alyeska]

Which is enough for a full advance of generation. Certainly the reactor seems to be a whole new generation in terms of safety

Galaxy reactor safety was slowly improved over a period of 7 years and was eventualy fully fixed.

Like (count only the ones in canon)?

Sovereign class is of a smaller design. It has a heavier compliment of weapons. There is no indication of any families on board and we have never seen any indication of scientists. The Sovereign class has been seen performing what can be described as purely combat missions. The Sovereign was never shown to be using specialized sensors when it was scanning for the Scimitar.

Rule Violation. Other people are under no more obligation to comply with the TM's opinion than your opinion.

What rules violation? The only person who calls the TMs invalid would be someone I don't entirely credit with authority on the issue. Either way the information itself shows the intent behind the design of the ship and ignoring it in a debate about ship capabilities is rather questionable.

Besides, the only time I heard of a designation being applied to the Sovereign, it is an "Enhanced Deterrence Explorer".

Thats Kennedy's title.

However, given the fact that two of their potential enemies (Klingons and Romulans) got cloaks, if those extra sensors gave significant utility to detection of cloaked ships, wouldn't that give the warship a reason to have those as well.

Federation doesn't seem concerned with the Klingons, and the Romulan boarder is littered with sensors to catch Romulans. Also if sensor detectors are in the fleet as I suggested, every ship wouldn't need extensive sensor systems just for detecting cloaks.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Which is enough for a full advance of generation. Certainly the reactor seems to be a whole new generation in terms of safety

Galaxy reactor safety was slowly improved over a period of 7 years and was eventualy fully fixed.

You mean, you just heard fewer and fewer times in which things got totally out of hand? I suggest that was increased experience with the reactor.

Sovereign class is of a smaller design. It has a heavier compliment of weapons. There is no indication of any families on board and we have never seen any indication of scientists. The Sovereign class has been seen performing what can be described as purely combat missions.

OK...

The Sovereign was never shown to be using specialized sensors when it was scanning for the Scimitar.

You mean, they didn't try to come up with yet another Treknobabble solution involving "recalibration".

Thats Kennedy's title.

I would have thought that was something out of a TM.

Federation doesn't seem concerned with the Klingons, and the Romulan boarder is littered with sensors to catch Romulans.

America has the SOSUS warning net. Therefore, it is not necessary to invest money in making decent attack sonars for operational SSNs and ASW vessels.

Also if sensor detectors are in the fleet as I suggested, every ship wouldn't need extensive sensor systems just for detecting cloaks.

Dedicated sensor ships don't help much when you are alone. Besides, it could turn out to be a real wasteful thing. I suppose a second-tier vessel might be able to do without a cloak. But the premier combat vessel class of Starfleet, which might very well go unescorted?

[seanrobertson]

The Dominion proved that Cloaks can be brute forced. Thats how they detected the Defiant. Sisko learned from this and showed the Dominion how to brute force the Defiant when Tom Riker had control of it.

That's a good point, but it's worth noting that Defiant's cloak was anything but "perfect." Sometime during "The Search," I'm positive O'Brien, Sisko, the Romulan liason officer or all three mentioned the difficulties in cloaking a ship as overpowered as little D was.


As far as Scimitar goes...

RIKER: There's no way of penetrating [Shinzon's] cloak?
LAFORGE: No.
RIKER: So he could pass within 10 meters of every ship in Starfleet and they'd never know...

Maybe Riker's wrong, but without specific reason to think so, I figure detecting Scimitar is simply beyond Starfleet's means for the moment.

[Alyeska]

The Dominion proved that Cloaks can be brute forced. Thats how they detected the Defiant. Sisko learned from this and showed the Dominion how to brute force the Defiant when Tom Riker had control of it.

That's a good point, but it's worth noting that Defiant's cloak was anything but "perfect." Sometime during "The Search," I'm positive O'Brien, Sisko, the Romulan liason officer or all three mentioned the difficulties in cloaking a ship as overpowered as little D was.


As far as Scimitar goes...

RIKER: There's no way of penetrating [Shinzon's] cloak?
LAFORGE: No.
RIKER: So he could pass within 10 meters of every ship in Starfleet and they'd never know...

Maybe Riker's wrong, but without specific reason to think so, I figure detecting Scimitar is simply beyond Starfleet's means for the moment.

I find that statement EXTREMELY unlikely given the assets at hand. Its one thing to sneak by sensor networks through holes that have been developed through better cloaking, getting within ten meters of even massive sensor platforms is an alltogether different thing.

[seanrobertson]

I find that statement EXTREMELY unlikely given the assets at hand. Its one thing to sneak by sensor networks through holes that have been developed through better cloaking, getting within ten meters of even massive sensor platforms is an alltogether different thing.

Sure, when your cloak isn't "perfect." Scimitar's doesn't have the same flaws that previous ships' did.

A literal ten meters or no, Riker's statement is clear: no Starfleet ship would detect Scimitar. Thus, we can't say a Galaxy's or Nebula's sensor palettes would fare better than the E-E's did.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Sure, when your cloak isn't "perfect." Scimitar's doesn't have the same flaws that previous ships' did.

There is no such thing as a "perfect" cloak, unless you want to bake yourself in one.

A literal ten meters or no, Riker's statement is clear: no Starfleet ship would detect Scimitar. Thus, we can't say a Galaxy's or Nebula's sensor palettes would fare better than the E-E's did.

That would depend on whether the Galaxy and Nebula's sensors cover different bands, or are just of greater sensitivity and power, or simply not superior at all.

If the Sovereign really has the best sensors in the fleet, then of course nobody else in Starfleet could. However, I would hazard that a dedicated "Nebula AWACS" might have superior sensors.

If they cover different bands, it is impossible for Riker to be absolutely sure, since he's evaluating the cloak from the data available from the Sovereign sensors. It is like a radar operator conluding a plane to be invisible to IR, simply because he can't pick it up on his radar.

If they are of greater sensitivity and power, but in the same band, then it is possible to estimate how much better they would do. We know the Scimitar is invisible to the Sovereign even at 1km or less. Let's take 1km. If we assume that a Nebula AWACS has sensors 100 times better (say by putting 10 times more power into the active scan and using sheer antenna size to get 10 times better sensitivity.) Then, according to the Inverse Square Law, the sensor would still not pick up the Scimitar until it is under 10km. In space terms, that might as well be invisible.

[seanrobertson]

There is no such thing as a "perfect" cloak, unless you want to bake yourself in one.

Geordi's words, not mine (hence the quotation marks ).

While you're right, certainly, we can say Scimitar's cloak is effectively perfect against Starfleet sensors.

That would depend on whether the Galaxy and Nebula's sensors cover different bands, or are just of greater sensitivity and power, or simply not superior at all.

If the Sovereign really has the best sensors in the fleet, then of course nobody else in Starfleet could. However, I would hazard that a dedicated "Nebula AWACS" might have superior sensors.

If they cover different bands, it is impossible for Riker to be absolutely sure, since he's evaluating the cloak from the data available from the Sovereign sensors. It is like a radar operator conluding a plane to be invisible to IR, simply because he can't pick it up on his radar.

So, basically, assuming certain unknowns are taken as facts, Riker could be wrong?

I mean, really: with the paltry data we have, could we reasonably compare GCSs' and NCSs' sensors to a Sovereign's?

Looking at the shows, how would we come to understand that a GCS's sensors cover bands a Sovereign's don't, that a NCS's sensors are the most sensitive and/or most powerful in Starfleet, etc., etc.?

We need a hard reason to discount Riker's statement. We need reason to believe the Nebula's powerful suite would succeed when Riker clearly says Scimitar could pass by all of Starfleet undetected.

If they are of greater sensitivity and power, but in the same band, then it is possible to estimate how much better they would do. We know the Scimitar is invisible to the Sovereign even at 1km or less. Let's take 1km. If we assume that a Nebula AWACS has sensors 100 times better (say by putting 10 times more power into the active scan and using sheer antenna size to get 10 times better sensitivity.) Then, according to the Inverse Square Law, the sensor would still not pick up the Scimitar until it is under 10km. In space terms, that might as well be invisible.

Especially in *Trek* space terms

The latter part is especially nicely stated, but again, without something more cut and dry, I see no reason whatsoever to declare Riker wrong. There are possible ways in which he (and Geordi) could be wrong, but let's not pretend otherwise: those possibilities are very big unknowns.

[LordShaithis]

Even if the Romulans manage to wipe out major Federation worlds with thalaron weapons, so what? That won't stop an enraged Starfleet from barging in and doing its best to imitate a BDZ on Romulus. Ergo, even if they can put a Scimitar over Earth and kill everyone, they're probably too smart to do so.