Klingon Occupation of Bajor

[Uraniun235]

They kicked the Cardies in an all out attack. That implies either:
1) Better ships/weapons
2) Better in a straight fight
3) Both

Or they significantly outnumbered the Cardassians.

[Stofsk]

The notion that the Klingons are tactically weaker than the Cardassians seems difficult to support in light of the fact that they kicked the Cardassians' asses.

Cardassian infantry tactics - from what little we see of them, at any rate - are superior to the Klingon "Hey, we've got knives - let's use 'em!" Note, this isn't very difficult to achieve, and the Klingon's reputation as a 'warrior species' I would wager is undeserved. On a 'land' fight I would think the Cardassians would be much better equipped to deal with the Klingons and their bizarre tactics. But I cannot back that up with anything other than the Klingons are stupid fighters.

The Klingons had a number of Strategic advantages in "Way of the Warrior" which gave them the edge and allowed them push in as far as they did:

• 1. The Cardassian Central Command (CC or CCC? Bah, who cares...) had just fallen and been replaced by a civilian lead government known as "The Detapa Council" - this would constitute a period of time in which the Cardassian nation is vulnerable.
  
  2. Prior to this, the Cardassian intelligence organisation known as the Obsidian Order (OO) was heavily set back, if not eradicated (some elements may have survived and 'switched sides' along with Gul Dukat). This means the Cardassians would have a seriously limited capacity to deal with security and intelligence issues.
  
  3. Prior to even THIS, Enabrain Tain's abortive attack upon the Changeling's homeworld within the DQ cost the Cardassians significant military resources and the loss of manpower and equipment. I cannot remember the fleet size or how many Cardies crew a Keldon class warship, but I'm putting it in here as a shortfall in Cardassia's strategic defence. These were ships, in other words, which had they not been destroyed could have made a greater impact on the Klingon offensive. Perhaps blunting it entirely (I believe someone has mentioned here that the Keldon class is superior to the Galor class, though I don't know what corroborates that to be honest).
  
  4. Finally, the Klingons have cloaking devices and they were somehow able to hide their invasion fleet from Cardassian security/intel and Starfleet's equivalent (witness Sisko et al's surprise at seeing an entire battle fleet decloak in close proximity to the station). This implies that Klingon intelligence/security earned it's bread for the week, or that the Cardassians were still suffering from an intel shortfall thanks to Tain's mad ambitions (and Starfleet probably focusing too hard on countering Changeling infiltration rather than keeping a close eye on their neighbours).

Taking all this into consideration it is not hard at all to understand why the Klingons - who MAY be 'tactically inferior' - got so far into Cardassian territory and annexed so much of it. If CC hadn't falled, and if the OO still existed it would probably be a different story (maybe a much bloodier conflict, a much more protracted battle on all fronts etc, I'm not saying the Cardassians would win per se, I'm just saying if the above 4 strategic advantages weren't favouring the Klingons then things would be different).

They kicked the Cardies in an all out attack. That implies either:
1) Better ships/weapons
2) Better in a straight fight
3) Both

Or they significantly outnumbered the Cardassians.

U-235 may be right. Dukat had little time with which to rally a task force to meet the Klingons in battle, which means that it's more conceivable he was simply outnumbered. I'm inclined to believe Cardassian ships are - in general - poor in quality when compared to their neighbours, but they seem to have better discipline (Ref. "Sacrifice of Angels" - Dukat recognised Sisko's innane tactic and allowed it to occur, hoping to entrap the Federation fleet and wipe it out. This was successful in some regard, as the USS Defiant was the only ship that made it through the blockade - chalk that one up to Sisko's brilliant fleet command skills... Yay, let's put a Captain in charge of hundreds of warships - um, isn't that why we have Admirals? )

It does not imply that they are good at fighting terrorists in a guerilla war. Quite the opposite- Klingons charge in head first, which is stupid in a terrorist war.

Klingons are also patient hunters, which is directly referenced in "Way of the Warrior" when Worf mentions a common (re: SOP) tactic of laying in wait whilst cloaked and surprise an enemy by ambushing them. Actually that is a good trait to deal with terrorists.

So they're kind of half-there, half-not.

[Praxis]

Or they significantly outnumbered the Cardassians.
U-235 may be right. Dukat had little time with which to rally a task force to meet the Klingons in battle, which means that it's more conceivable he was simply outnumbered. I'm inclined to believe Cardassian ships are - in general - poor in quality when compared to their neighbours, but they seem to have better discipline (Ref. "Sacrifice of Angels" - Dukat recognised Sisko's innane tactic and allowed it to occur, hoping to entrap the Federation fleet and wipe it out. This was successful in some regard, as the USS Defiant was the only ship that made it through the blockade - chalk that one up to Sisko's brilliant fleet command skills... Yay, let's put a Captain in charge of hundreds of warships - um, isn't that why we have Admirals? )

Just a little nitpick:

The Defiant was only the FIRST ship to make it through. The rest were held back. At the end, after Sisko convinced the wormhole aliens to wipe out the Dominion reinforcements and had opened fire on DS9, Damar reported, "Sir, 200 enemy ships have broken through our lines!" This implied SOME Federation ships survived (though a number were likely Klingon).

It does not imply that they are good at fighting terrorists in a guerilla war. Quite the opposite- Klingons charge in head first, which is stupid in a terrorist war.

Klingons are also patient hunters, which is directly referenced in "Way of the Warrior" when Worf mentions a common (re: SOP) tactic of laying in wait whilst cloaked and surprise an enemy by ambushing them. Actually that is a good trait to deal with terrorists.

So they're kind of half-there, half-not. [/quote]

So they've learned cloaking tactics...still, that can't be used in a ground battle.
Klingons are like the Yuuzhan Vong in some respects. Get them angry, they'll charge in blind, and worse than the Vong, they use simple knives.
I have never seen a Klingon fail to respond to insults. If you shout, "You honorless son of a Romulan!" at a Klingon, he'll blindly charge at you, right into a trap if need be. Heck, they'll kill their own CREWMEMBERS if they are even remotely insulting!

[Patrick Ogaard]

Apologies in advance for getting long-winded.

I don't disagree about Sisko's actions being criminal; but what the fuck is this TREASON charge? When did Sisko aid the Cardassian Central Command WITHOUT strict orders from his superiors (Ref. "The Maquis")? How do we know the Cardassian Detapa Council was considered an ENEMY STATE? Betraying an ally who's decided on unilateral action is one thing; but treason is a whole kettle of fish.

Sisko knowingly betrayed the plans of the Klingon part of the Federation-Klingon Alliance, without getting official approval from higher headquarters, and subverted the officers of his command into complicity in his betrayal of military secrets. With that, Sisko effectively placed himself above the Federation Council and Starfleet Command. While a ship captain far from communication with higher headquarters could legitimately assume such authority, Sisko was not out of easy communications range with any number of admirals and other people more qualified to exercise such authority. Betraying the Klingon military forces without having the backing of the Federation's government (no matter how plausibly deniable that backing might be made) is effectively synonymous with betraying a Starfleet force of the same size. Betraying formal allies is effectively the same as betraying one's own forces, and actually justifies the Klingon repudiation of the Accords. Whether the treason charge could be made to stick is a matter for debate, and it's entirely possible that my interpretation would not match the majority decision (thus proving that I'm humble enough to recognize that I might be entirely wrong about something ).

Mentioning "In The Pale Moonlight" is a bit of a Red Herring however. He acted alone then, and that was made clear as a plot development. And his activities weren't treasonous, given they helped his nation with the inclusion of the RSE into the fight.

Specifically, Sisko knowingly employed the services of a turncoat enemy spy, threatened a neutral (albeit a neutral criminal) with death if he did not cooperate. He then allowed the obvious murder of the neutral to go unpunished, becoming at least accomplice after the fact to murder. Following that he did the same with an emissary of a neutral power, not only becoming accomplice after the fact to the murder of that emissary, but also presuming to unilaterally take upon himself the authority that only Starfleet Intelligence legitimately has (and Section 31 claims for itself).

However, when you say "Diplomatic condemnation is cheap and meaningless UNLESS IT LEADS TO ACTION OR THREAT OF ACTION" I ONCE AGAIN point to "Way of the Warrior" where a Starfleet Task Force lead by (presumably) the War-GCS USS Venture and numerous escorts was dispatched to DS9 to reinforce it from attack, which had also received a major upgrade to it's defensive capabilities. The Federation council condemned the Klingon attack, and deployed at least one battlegroup to the nearest Klingon line as a defensive measure.

The problem is that the task force was obviously tasked with protecting a Starfleet asset, DS9, and that DS9 was acting strictly in self defense while blasting Klingon ships and in accordance with what is almost certainly Federation law regarding non-extradition of refugees, specifically refugees with diplomatic status as the duly recognized government of a neutral power, who face certain execution.

Remember, your ORIGINAL point that I was responding to:

The Federation would tap them on the shoulder and ask 'what the fuck are they doing?'

The Federation doesn't do that, though.

I bolded it in case you forgot. The Federation DOES do something, it does MORE than something, whereas you implied in THAT statement and in the one above that it does nothing.

It wouldn't be the first time someone quite legitimately doesn't agree with my interpretation. I see the Federation's actions as purely reactive, effectively the minimum reaction necessary to retain even a semblance of credibility in the international community.

Good quote, and shows... not a lot. Unfortunately, we don't know WHO the "violent and strong" are, nor do we know WHO "the weak" were. Data doesn't mention it. As a quote it is strongly implicatory, but doesn't say a whole hell of a lot.

No argument there.

They were at war with the Cardassians, they NEVER had a Treaty of Alliance with them the same way they had with the Klingons.

True, though dignifying as a war what was apparently little more than a drawn-out border skirmish/police action from the point of view of the Federation puts perhaps too intense a spin on it. Sure, the Cardies did some unpleasant things on Bajor, but that's only to be expected of primitive, immature cultures not yet brought into the UFP fold and introduced to the narcotic qualities of root beer.

Unfortunately you haven't provided proof. Like I said, the Federation didn't criticise the Cardassians because they were too busy fighting them on places like Setlik III where the Cardies were committing atrocities against their own citizens (Ref. "The Wounded").)

The conflict with the Cardies was barely more than a blip on the Federation's radar except for those Starfleet personnel and associated civilians directly affected. The peace treaty wasn't signed until 2366, with Captain Maxwell carrying out his attacks in 2367, so the conflict with the Cardies should have been going on throughout the early years of TNG, without anyone on the Ent-D even so much as referring to it.

The Setlik III incident was a raid in force, conducted by the Cardassians who (DS9, Emissary) mistakenly believed the outpost was the staging area for a massive Federation attack, resulting in about a hundred Federation civilians killed. That qualifies as an atrocity only in propaganda. In military terms, Setlik III was a screw-up on both sides. The Cardassians screwed up in following bad intelligence, and the Federation should have evacuated the civilians from a poorly protected outpost within striking range of technologically inferior hostile forces. A force sufficiently large to overrun an outpost with at least a hundred civilians and an undetermined number of Starfleet personnel on hand, presumably with basic shields and defensive weapons protecting the outpost, had to have been the complement of at least a cruiser, and the demonstrably less advanced Cardassian ships pre-DS9 could hardly have sneaked particularly deep into Federation space without being noticed.

The simplest way to conquer a planet fair and square is to carry out an annexation and make it stick by making a few client states and allies recognize the annexation as legitimate.

*snip descriptions of Federation PD policy*

If the Klingons did such a thing then it's conceivable the Federation would go along with it. But now we go from "conquering and occupying" to the term "annexation." Will the Bajorans consider it an occupation and begin terrorism campaigns? Will the Bajorans accept Klingon rule, which as I recall from TOS, was 'brutal but fair'?

The Cardassians apparently formally annexed Bajor in 2339 (though there I'm going by Encyclopedia info since I haven't found an episode reference yet. The timeline is: territorial claim around 2328 (Ensign Ro), followed by formal annexation in 2339 and occupation until 2369. Presumably the Klingons in the same situation would follow the same timeline from initial claim to annexation/occupation. It's entirely possible that the Bajorans would not accept Klingon rule, though if the Klingons exercise initial restraint (as in TOS Errand of Mercy, where they initially left the ruling council alive), the Bajorans might decide that accommodation is the best policy.

How is it a false dilemma when YOU CLAIMED the Klingons were a bunch of "Genocidal Thugs" and I was asking you to PROVE that? When and where have they wiped out a SAPIENT species (they wiped out the Tribbles, but they don't count)?

I don't deny the Klingons are a bunch of arseholes and thugs, but I want proof they're genocidal. I know they had at least one demonstrated ability to destroy the ecosphere of an entire planet, but that proves nothing: Starfleet was capable of doing similar level destruction in Kirk's day with a General Order 24 bombardment (Ref. "A Taste of Armageddon") which may have something to do with subjecting the planet to lethal neutron radiation (Ref. "Where No Man Has Gone Before").

I agree the Klingons have the capability, so does the Federation; probably the Romulans as well. Maybe the Cardassians. I want to know if the Klingons have done this before and WOULD do it again, after being made to withdraw.

To quote Picard regarding a Kriosian rebellion against being a Klingon colony:
TNG, The Mind's Eye
PICARD: I can assure you, Ambassador, the Federation would never interfere with the Empire's internal affairs.
KELL: Let us hope not. Such interference would call into question the very basis of our alliance.

Words.

How about Picard's (and the Federation's) interference during the Rite to Succession? How about Picard's (and the Federation's) interference during the Klingon Civil War, which ended up being crucial to Gowron's Loyalists? How about Sisko's (and the Federation's) interference in the Klingon's pre-emptive strike and invasion of Cardassian space?

Picard's interference in the Rite of Succession was brought on by K'mpec choosing Picard as the Arbiter of Succession. To refuse the honor and obligation would have damaged the Alliance. Similarly, the border blockade fleet that kept Romulan supplies out of the civil war could be easily enough justified away as the fulfillment of a mutual border defense obligation on the part of the parties to the Federation-Klingon Alliance. For Sisko's case, there was no indication that he had official sanction to betray illicitly obtained military secrets of his nation's allies to a nation only recently graduated from the status of outright enemy military junta to unstable but tentatively friendly democracy.

Picard's a diplomat, and he would say anything in order to downplay the matter. The fact remains the Federation knowingly caused interference in the Klingon Empire, but it was indirect. That doesn't suddenly absolve them of all accountability. Nor does it state "Well, the Federation NEVER interferes due to the PD" - that's a black/white, on/off view of the matter.

Also, the "old practices" of the Klingons dictated the execution of "all government officials."

Reference please.

Righto:
DS9 The Way of the Warrior
WORF: If the Klingon Empire has reverted to its old practices, they will occupy the Cardassian homeworld, execute all government officials, and install an imperial overseer to put down any further resistance.

You're getting somewhere with this...

The Tribbles weren't sapient (at least no evidence has been put forward to that effect).

As to the incident in "The Chase" I believe the word was classified as 'uninhabited' even though it was an M-class planet.

And I already concede their attitude towards 'mass killings' - the Klingons are brutal and thuggish, it's the genocidal point I'm having difficulty with (though I have to wonder why I'm even bothering to defend them... )

You seem to be doing well enough. There are two ways to look at genocide: the dictionary definition and the definition under international law. Under both definitions, many canonical and implied Klingon actions qualify as genocidal.

The formal definition under international law:
Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:
(a) Genocide;
(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d) Attempt to commit genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide. [/quote]

The dictionary definition is simpler: The deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group. If the d'jarras are in place prior to the occupation, then the Klingons have to commit genocide against the religious and administrative/ruling castes in order to follow their pre-Accords SOP.

Sorry for snipping it - I agree with the majority of what you said.

My only problem is that the Federation probably would not go along with it. The quote from "The Mind's Eye" is a good one, but we have no details from said "Kriosian Rebellion" nor standard Klingon practices at the time.

No worries. I know that cutting to the chase is not one of my strengths. The details of the Kriosian rebellion are sketchy at best, but there is some evidence that can be pieced together, from the episodes The Mind's Eye and The Perfect Mate. The rebels are probably mostly non-Klingon humanoids, since Kriosians (presumably independents post-rebellion) are very human-looking in The Perfect Mate (and had a long-standing feud with their cousins, the Valtese of Valt Minor). The Klingon governor in The Mind's Eye has his offices in the capital city of Krios, and commanded orbital assets consisting of, at minimum, an attack cruiser and two BoP. The following dialogue excerpts from The Mind's Eye show that your speculation about Klingon societal upheaval (brought on in part by adherence to the Khitomer Accords) in the TNG timeframe are obviously right on the money, as well as showing a few other things about the rebellion situation:

KELL: There was a time when the Empire would crush a rebellion. Today... it is tolerated. (beat) We have enough problems on the home planet. We do not wish to divert resources to this trivial war.
PICARD: You are prepared to grant them independence?
KELL: (shrugging it off) Perhaps. But we will conquer them again later if we wish to.
PICARD: If I may ask, Ambassador, what has this to do with us?
…
KELL: There have been two rebel attacks on neutral freighters... one Ferengi, the other Cardassian... WORF: Both were engaged near the Ikalian asteroid belt... that is where the rebels must be hiding... KELL: (acknowledges) The actinides in the asteroids provide effective protection from our sensors.
…
VAGH: We talk, we waste time... and the insurrection continues to grow. These rebels need to be crushed... not coddled.
KELL: It does not matter how you or I feel, Governor. The High Council has made its wishes clear.
VAGH: The Council should be more concerned about Federation interference. PICARD (a frown) Governor, what exactly do you believe the Federation has done? VAGH Your medical supplies have been found in rebel strongholds.
RIKER: We make no effort to restrict access to our medical supplies.
VAGH: Are your weapons also freely available?
PICARD: No, they are not. (Vagh moves behind his desk, produces a Federation phaser rifle.)
VAGH: Then explain this... (He tosses the heavy weapon to Picard who is forced to catch it.)
PICARD: This was captured from the rebels?
VAGH: That and many more like it.
RIKER:(as he takes rifle) It does seem to be Federation issue.
PICARD: With your permission, Governor, I would like to take that weapon back to the Enterprise and verify its origin.
VAGH: (clearly skeptical) As you wish. I have hundreds more.
PICARD: Even if these weapons do prove genuine, I assure you some third party is involved. The Federation is not in the business of arming rebellions.
VAGH: This is the only Klingon colony on the border of Federation space. You cannot deny that Starfleet would be happy to see Krios gain its independence... it would reduce your vulnerability to an attack...
PICARD: You speak as if we were enemies, Governor, not allies.[/quote]

[RANT] snip justified writers/Klingon rant[/quote]

Well, maybe the writers have necrotizing encephalitic cooties. It's the best idea I've been able to come up with so far. Well, that or they feared the fan backlash when the noble and honorable Klingons got their butts permanently kicked and the status quo changed. Star Trek is notorious for consistently hitting the big reset button.