Wait a minute (re: Nemesis)...

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Post by Chris OFarrell »

RedImperator wrote:
The Kernel wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:If that's a TNG episode, no, that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm refering to was used by Sisko and the Gang on DS9.

I wouldn't know what the episode title was. All I know is that they had a device that could alter the laws of probability.

They might as well have given Sisko a fucking magic wand, to be honest: it'd be on the same level of believability to me.
That's "Rivals", the DS9 episode where the guy opens a competitor bar to Quarks using the Luck Engine thingy to attract customers.
Wait--are you telling me there's a DS9 episode where a device exists which can alter probability, and by extention the underlying structure of the universe itself, and it's being used to cheat on roulette? Instead of, say, making Dominion battleships spontaneously teleport into stars?
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Post by RedImperator »

I'll take that as a yes. I think "Threshold" just got a little better in my mind. Not, you know, a lot. But some.
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Re: Wait a minute (re: Nemesis)...

Post by Metrion Cascade »

SirNitram wrote:
Metrion Cascade wrote:
Lord Revan wrote: they were up, I think it's because the Scimitar was the first starship to have enough power to use both it's weapons and shields
In other words if Trek has any wanktech the Scimitar is among it. At least in Trek terms.
Yea, it's slotted up there with the rest of the one-shot technology. It'd be really wonderful if the writers could get off this idea that technology is revolutionary instead of evolutionary. Then there'd actually be some interesting and new things in Trek these days.
New? Interesting?

Aren't we being a little unreasonable? Next thing I know you'll be saying Starfleet should have ground forces with armored vehicles and people who know how to shoot. :lol:
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Post by Ma Deuce »

Chris OFarrell wrote:*Iraqi information minister walks into thread*

"There is no such episode in DS9! The Scriptwriters by Allah have thrown the proposal back onto the reject pile! I think the writer is commiting suicide on the Gates of Paramount!"
LMAO!! If only it were true :lol:.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

RedImperator wrote:Wait--are you telling me there's a DS9 episode where a device exists which can alter probability, and by extention the underlying structure of the universe itself, and it's being used to cheat on roulette? Instead of, say, making Dominion battleships spontaneously teleport into stars?
Shit, with something like that, they could have turned the entire Dominion fleet into, like, butter or something...
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Post by The Kernel »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote: Shit, with something like that, they could have turned the entire Dominion fleet into like butter or something...
No actually they couldn't. See, aparently Dax figured out that the device manipulated particle spin so that they would all spin in one direction. Trouble is, and this was pointed out by Dr. Krauss in Beyond Star Trek, they were all supposed to be spinning like that in the first place!
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

The Kernel wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote: Shit, with something like that, they could have turned the entire Dominion fleet into like butter or something...
No actually they couldn't. See, aparently Dax figured out that the device manipulated particle spin so that they would all spin in one direction. Trouble is, and this was pointed out by Dr. Krauss in Beyond Star Trek, they were all supposed to be spinning like that in the first place!
Damn it, don't wreck my fucking jokes. :P
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Re: Wait a minute (re: Nemesis)...

Post by Lancer »

Lord Revan wrote:
Matt Huang wrote: During the pounding the E-E threw out at the Scimitar, the officer didn't mention critical hull damage at all (which they will always make a point of doing for drama). Either way, that would put the Valdore's firepower above that of the Sov.
If you mean after Troys little trick, I think they were too busy geting trown around the bridge like ragdolls to say anything.
no, back when the E-E was doing active sensing with it's phaser banks.
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Re: Wait a minute (re: Nemesis)...

Post by Lancer »

seanrobertson wrote:
Matt Huang wrote: From my understanding, the cloak acted as shields. When he ambushes the Valdore, he specifically ordered the aft quarter cloak to be dropped. Then, the Scimitar starts taking damage, he orders an all stop, the Valdore flys in front of the Scimitar and he blasts it with a point-blank volley.
It's quite a good idea, Matt, but I'm afraid it doesn't follow: when the Scimitar is fully decloaked near the end of the battle, LaForge says her shields are still at 70%.
hmmn. Yet the E-E was able to ram the Scimitar without the shield-bubble effect that we see when anything touches the shields (such as wreckage from a Norrexian impacting against the E-E's port nacelle). Weirdness.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I doubt it, but I just like calling it that because IIRC, it seems to annoy some people. ;)

That and Escaflowne accomplished the subject so much better.
Obviously, you miscultured baboon, they were ripping off The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy's Infinite Improbability Device.

One of the in-jokes on one of the Engineering panels in TNG also had an "Infinite Improbability Drive" label hidden away... but at least they were smart enough to keep it hidden.
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Re: Wait a minute (re: Nemesis)...

Post by The Kernel »

Matt Huang wrote: hmmn. Yet the E-E was able to ram the Scimitar without the shield-bubble effect that we see when anything touches the shields (such as wreckage from a Norrexian impacting against the E-E's port nacelle). Weirdness.
Not all shields are built equal. Have we ever seen a Romulan ship's shields shimmer when hit by a physical impact?
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Re: Wait a minute (re: Nemesis)...

Post by Lancer »

The Kernel wrote:
Matt Huang wrote: hmmn. Yet the E-E was able to ram the Scimitar without the shield-bubble effect that we see when anything touches the shields (such as wreckage from a Norrexian impacting against the E-E's port nacelle). Weirdness.
Not all shields are built equal. Have we ever seen a Romulan ship's shields shimmer when hit by a physical impact?
hmmn, the incident where the Scorpion blew a hole in one of the Scimitar's viewports and caused a ripple throughout the cloak comes to mind.
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Re: Wait a minute (re: Nemesis)...

Post by The Kernel »

Matt Huang wrote: hmmn, the incident where the Scorpion blew a hole in one of the Scimitar's viewports and caused a ripple throughout the cloak comes to mind.
It's been a while since I've that piece of garbage but could it not have merely been a ripple in the cloak rather than the shields?
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Post by The Silence and I »

A ripple in the shields would not cause a rippling of the image of the Scimitar, but a ripple in the cloaking field would, therefore it is likely we saw a disturbance in the cloaking field.

~~~~~~~~~~
Matt Huang wrote:
During the pounding the E-E threw out at the Scimitar, the officer didn't mention critical hull damage at all (which they will always make a point of doing for drama). Either way, that would put the Valdore's firepower above that of the Sov.
Keep in mind, when the Valador damaged the Scimitar, it was the result of repeated fire into the same small aft section of the Scimitar; and we all know how Romulans like to use heavy distruptors. :D Before Troy's finding trick any fire the Enterprise managed to bring to bear successfully was widely spread about the entire shield system, over a period of time, allowing shield regeneration (assuming the Scimitar can do this) and damage control. A breakdown of the two ships main attack chance:
Valador: gets a clear shot, fires many rapid shots into the same spot in the aft, where shields may be weaker. Results in some minor hull damage.
Enterprise: gets a clear shot, unleashes a handful of quantum torpedoes, fewer photon torpedoes than it should be capable of, and a paltry phaser spread due to lack of main power. Results in severe shield damage (most of the 30% shield damage almost certainly occured here), as well as massive shaking of the hull and explosions on the bridge--evidence of serious damage.

To me it is clear the Enterprise has a firepower advantage. Its quantum torpedoes seem to cause extensive damage despite shielding, and had main power been available it could have sustained ~5 phaser shots per second into the Scimitar--serious damage potential! e.g. ~8-10 disruptor hits downed the Enterprise-D's shields in Tin Man IIRC. Well, assuming type XII phaser arrays are only equivalent to 10+ year old disruptor designs then the E-E could destroy the E-D in little over 2 sec. with phaser fire alone.
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Post by Metrion Cascade »

The Silence and I wrote:A ripple in the shields would not cause a rippling of the image of the Scimitar, but a ripple in the cloaking field would, therefore it is likely we saw a disturbance in the cloaking field.

~~~~~~~~~~
Matt Huang wrote:
During the pounding the E-E threw out at the Scimitar, the officer didn't mention critical hull damage at all (which they will always make a point of doing for drama). Either way, that would put the Valdore's firepower above that of the Sov.
Keep in mind, when the Valador damaged the Scimitar, it was the result of repeated fire into the same small aft section of the Scimitar; and we all know how Romulans like to use heavy distruptors. :D Before Troy's finding trick any fire the Enterprise managed to bring to bear successfully was widely spread about the entire shield system, over a period of time, allowing shield regeneration (assuming the Scimitar can do this) and damage control. A breakdown of the two ships main attack chance:
Valador: gets a clear shot, fires many rapid shots into the same spot in the aft, where shields may be weaker. Results in some minor hull damage.
Enterprise: gets a clear shot, unleashes a handful of quantum torpedoes, fewer photon torpedoes than it should be capable of, and a paltry phaser spread due to lack of main power. Results in severe shield damage (most of the 30% shield damage almost certainly occured here), as well as massive shaking of the hull and explosions on the bridge--evidence of serious damage.
They never got a "clear shot," because they never successfully flushed out the Scimitar. Any visual gunner would have done a better job hitting the Scimitar than Worf and the Romulan officers did. There were multiple shots of the E-E and Romulans missing a visible Scimitar.
To me it is clear the Enterprise has a firepower advantage. Its quantum torpedoes seem to cause extensive damage despite shielding, and had main power been available it could have sustained ~5 phaser shots per second into the Scimitar--serious damage potential! e.g. ~8-10 disruptor hits downed the Enterprise-D's shields in Tin Man IIRC. Well, assuming type XII phaser arrays are only equivalent to 10+ year old disruptor designs then the E-E could destroy the E-D in little over 2 sec. with phaser fire alone.
You're kidding. The Scimitar dropped the Enterprise out of warp and disabled the warp drive with their first salvo, damaging the warp core and dropping the forcefield around it. They knocked out all the transporters on the ship, reduced the phasers to 4% operational, and got an away team aboard. They caused multiple hull breaches. And they crippled two Warbirds larger than and roughly as powerful (if not as durable) as the Enterprise before taking any damage. The Scimitar is among the strongest vessels in Trek canon. Picard, Worf, and Riker were in awe of the damn thing the minute they scanned it.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Uraniun235 wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I doubt it, but I just like calling it that because IIRC, it seems to annoy some people. ;)

That and Escaflowne accomplished the subject so much better.
Obviously, you miscultured baboon, they were ripping off The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy's Infinite Improbability Device.

One of the in-jokes on one of the Engineering panels in TNG also had an "Infinite Improbability Drive" label hidden away... but at least they were smart enough to keep it hidden.
I doubt that, too. From what I remember, the IID just made random weird shit happen, while this DS9 device actually altered the laws of probability, which is still closer to Escaflowne's Fate Alteration Engine, you silly Cossack. :P
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Post by SirNitram »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I doubt it, but I just like calling it that because IIRC, it seems to annoy some people. ;)

That and Escaflowne accomplished the subject so much better.
Obviously, you miscultured baboon, they were ripping off The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy's Infinite Improbability Device.

One of the in-jokes on one of the Engineering panels in TNG also had an "Infinite Improbability Drive" label hidden away... but at least they were smart enough to keep it hidden.
I doubt that, too. From what I remember, the IID just made random weird shit happen, while this DS9 device actually altered the laws of probability, which is still closer to Escaflowne's Fate Alteration Engine, you silly Cossack. :P
He's actually wrong. The IID wasn't copied until Threshold.

Though you could liken the DS9 dingus to the Finite Improbability Generator.
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Post by Alyeska »

Metrion Cascade wrote:You're kidding. The Scimitar dropped the Enterprise out of warp and disabled the warp drive with their first salvo, damaging the warp core and dropping the forcefield around it. They knocked out all the transporters on the ship, reduced the phasers to 4% operational, and got an away team aboard. They caused multiple hull breaches. And they crippled two Warbirds larger than and roughly as powerful (if not as durable) as the Enterprise before taking any damage. The Scimitar is among the strongest vessels in Trek canon. Picard, Worf, and Riker were in awe of the damn thing the minute they scanned it.
He does make a good point with the Quantum Torpedoes. For the relative firepower disparity between the Scimitar and the Enterprise, when the Enterprise fired several volley's of Quantum Torpedoes it massively weakened an area of shielding and allowed follow up traditional fire to cause disruptions all over the scimitar and even knocked out its cloaking device.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

I'd like to know how one gets Norexan class warbirds almost as powerful/durable as the Enterprise out of the Nemesis battle which shows those two birds going down much faster than the Enterprise did.
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Uraniun235 wrote:I'd like to know how one gets Norexan class warbirds almost as powerful/durable as the Enterprise out of the Nemesis battle which shows those two birds going down much faster than the Enterprise did.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Neither of those warbirds detonated, and Shinzon came pretty damn close to doing that anyway when he nearly spaced the bridge.
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Post by Metrion Cascade »

Alyeska wrote:
Metrion Cascade wrote:You're kidding. The Scimitar dropped the Enterprise out of warp and disabled the warp drive with their first salvo, damaging the warp core and dropping the forcefield around it. They knocked out all the transporters on the ship, reduced the phasers to 4% operational, and got an away team aboard. They caused multiple hull breaches. And they crippled two Warbirds larger than and roughly as powerful (if not as durable) as the Enterprise before taking any damage. The Scimitar is among the strongest vessels in Trek canon. Picard, Worf, and Riker were in awe of the damn thing the minute they scanned it.
He does make a good point with the Quantum Torpedoes. For the relative firepower disparity between the Scimitar and the Enterprise, when the Enterprise fired several volley's of Quantum Torpedoes it massively weakened an area of shielding and allowed follow up traditional fire to cause disruptions all over the scimitar and even knocked out its cloaking device.
The cloaking device is on the same circuit as the C-4 in the bridge consoles. Yes, the Enterprise's quantums allowed them to inflict considerable damage on the Scimitar. But those highlights don't mean it's more powerful overall. There are various vs. matches in which a weaker foe will do moderate or serious damage before it succumbs.
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Post by Metrion Cascade »

Uraniun235 wrote:I'd like to know how one gets Norexan class warbirds almost as powerful/durable as the Enterprise out of the Nemesis battle which shows those two birds going down much faster than the Enterprise did.
Powerful, yes. Durable, no.
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Post by Sarevok »

It is interesting to note that the Scimitars shields offer very little kinetic energy protection. Despite being at 70% strength the Scimitars shields failed to stop the Enterprise from hitting the hull.
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Post by Metrion Cascade »

Scimitar's work:

1.) warp drive out (Enterprise)
2.) warp core forcefield out (Enterprise)
3.) warp core damaged (Enterprise)
4.) two shield penetrations (Enterprise)
5.) near loss of dorsal shields (Enterprise)
6.) console sparking (Enterprise)
7.) aft shields down to 40% (Enterprise)
8.) one Warbird (faster than the E-E and nearly 1 1/2 times its size) losing a wing and being crippled
9.) forward shields down to 10% due to collision (indirect - the Scimitar was tossing other ships at them :lol: - Enterprise)

At this point I have to take a moment to praise how good this movie looked. Yes, it sucked overall thanks to the writing, but even Darth Wong admitted the movie looked cool. Say what you will, being stoned makes movies seem less real. And this movie still feels real when I watch it. I can't say that of "The Phantom Menace" or "Attack of the Clones."

Watching the battle now it's almost as if the Enterprise and Romulans are being tossed about (and even into each other) by a storm of the Scimitar's making. Hmmm...definitely a good thing to have a ship that tosses the rest about like toys when it sneezes. Let's continue:

10.) second Warbird crippled with multiple hull breaches
11.) three more shield breaches on the Enterprise's saucer
12.) loss of structural integrity on decks 12-17, sections 4-10; sections are abandoned by having their SIF power diverted to shields (Enterprise)
13.) loss of ventral shielding to deck 29 (Enterprise)
14.) boarding party of perhaps half a dozen to a dozen aboard (Enterprise)
15.) hull breach on bridge (Enterprise)

Two Warbirds are wrecked along with the Enterprise, and:

Enterprise's marks on the Scimitar (one Scimitar, not two expensive Warbirds and the pride of Starfleet), with the help of the Romulans:

1.) console sparking
2.) cloak down (due only to Troi)
3.) no apparent hull breaches by weapons
4.) 30% loss of shielding (apparently forward, which makes sense - many of the Enterprise's hits were while the Scimitar was advancing on them - in other words whenever the Scimitar allowed it, because the Scimitar set up and controlled the whole battle)
5.) ramming: destruction of Scimitar shuttle bay
6.) ramming: loss of all Scimitar disruptors
7.) two armed boarders

This damage is done at the cost of:

1.) all of Enterprise's photon torpedoes and 96% of its phasers
2.) ramming - loss of the forward sections of the saucer
3.) ramming - collapse of internal structural members
4.) ramming - loss of ability to transport more than one person

The Scimitar is still warp-capable and still in possession of a weapon that can kill everyone on Earth, and Enterprise is doing its damnedest simply to back away from them at a few meters a second.

The Scimitar was simply superior to every other ship there, put together. Maybe it's got something to do with the fact that it was not only a dedicated warship, but a purpose built weapon of mass destruction that massed roughly as much as its adversaries combined did.

You may as well argue that the Enterprise leaving scorch marks on the hull of a Star Destroyer when it explodes constitutes the Enterprise kicking the Star Destroyer's ass.

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