UFP: Closer to United States or United Nations model?

[TheDarkling]

Also, when negotiations for Bajor's membership in the Federation were being finalised, one of the issues remaining to be dealt with as Adm. Whatley mentioned was the integration of Bajor's military into Starfleet. It does seem in the TNG era at least that the member worlds of the Federation are not wholly soverign nor maintain independent military forces apart from Starfleet, as the UN and NATO nations do.

Yet we know Vulcan has both its own defence forces and intelligence services, in light of that I took integrating the Bajoran militia into Starfleet to mean either that they must be brought up spec (as a nation would be when joining NATO for example) or that because their equipment is so pathetic Starfleet will have to take over the role of defending the Bajoran system and the militia will be scrapped as an independent body (just because they can have an independent military doesn't mean they must, Earth for example probably just has its heavy involvement in Starfleet).

[TheDarkling]

In the United States Constitution, rights not specifically accorded to the Federal Government belong to the individual states.

Apparently, The Federation Government is just the opposite; rights not specifically accorded to member world planets (laws pertaining to Vulcan Ponn-Farr, Deltan celibacy oaths, etc) belong to the central federal government, by default.

And your reasoning would be?

[Admiral_K]

The answer to that is simple. The Federation is the interstellar governing body. People born in the Federation are Federation citizens, but they are also citizens of their own planets. He doesn't say he is a "citizen of earth" because the Cardassians don't deal with "Earth" they deal with the Federation.

The United States is a member of the UN, but no one in America says that they are a United Nations citizen. If the Federation is really a UN type body, then why wouldn't people identify themselves with their planet, rather than a loose international body?

I've already addressed that it is more in line with the Article of the Confederation in that regard. The Federation is the Entity that negotiates and handles Intergalactic treaties between Federation members, and outside powers.

Quite frankly I don't get where your Picard/Nechayev comment. It would break their treaty because the Cardassians would view them as Federation citizens. In fact, in the episode Journeys End, Picard makes it clear that they are giving up their status as Federation citizens. It is likely later political pressure by the Cardassians to "control their people" that changes their attitude, or perhaps it was because of assitance given to the colonists from those that were still Federation citizens.

In TNG "Pre-Emptive Strike", Picard flat out tells them to back down because, as he says, they are Federation citizens. This isn't a matter of the Cardassians treating all humans as Federation citizens. The Federation thinks they are as well. Which doesn't make sense if they are soveriegn colonies.

And what he said in Pre-Emptive Strike contradicts what he said in Journeys End:

PICARD: Anthwara... I want to make absolutely sure you understand the implications of this agreement. By giving up your status as Federation citizens... any future request you or your people make for assistance from Starfleet will go unanswered. You will be on your own... and under Cardassian jurisdiction.

Either they faced political pressure because the Cardassians regarded them as Fed citizens, are the particular Marquis Picard was talking to WERE Federation citizens who sympathized with the colonists.

As I said, likely political pressure from the Cardassians or possibly further assitance from true Federation citizens forced this action.

Why the hell would the Cardassians want to pressure the Federation to control the Maquis? The Cardassians want to kill them. Pressuring the Federation to get involved in the situation would be the last thing they want to do, since that means they can't move and kick their asses. It would be in their best interest to convince the Federation that the Maquis aren't Federation citizens, because that would give them free reign to do what they want.

The Marquis were proving to be quite a problem for the Cardassians. They bought in the Federation because they couldn't "move in and kick their asses". The Marquis continued to be a thorn in their side until they brought in the Dominion to finally destroy their military pressence.

Already conceded its not exactly like the United Nations. Simply, more similar than the United states model of government. If you want to find a form of government that is REALLY similar, than take a look at the Articles of Confederation which I believe to be about the closest fit you will find.

I've read the Articles of Confederation, and the Federation is nothing like the government layed out in the Articles. What I don't get is why you can't accept that the Federation is clearly a single nation with Earth as it's head.

How can you say the Federation is nothing like the government in the Articles of Confederation? The articles are a very good fit for the general model of the Federation. Maybe you should go re-read it sometime.

Article III. The said States hereby severally enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defense, the security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of religion, sovereignty, trade, or any other pretense whatever

Well, there is the colony that Tasha Yar escaped from that severed ties with the Federation, and described as an "earth colony". There's also the fact that Vulcans can legally challenge and kill each other during Pon Far mating rituals.

So what? The United States has local laws too.

You asked for examples, and even though you said they don't matter. I gave them to you anyway. You also ignore the example of a colony leaving the Federation. Someone else also brought up the fact that Vulcan maintains its own secret service and security force.

You can't pigeon hole the Fed government as anything like ours. As I said, I think the best fit would be the Articles of Confederation style government.

Have you read the Articles of Confederation?

Are you intentionally trying to be a pompous ass?

[Enola Straight]

In the United States Constitution, rights not specifically accorded to the Federal Government belong to the individual states.

Apparently, The Federation Government is just the opposite; rights not specifically accorded to member world planets (laws pertaining to Vulcan Ponn-Farr, Deltan celibacy oaths, etc) belong to the central federal government, by default.

And your reasoning would be?

Didn't Picard...a starfleet captain of one vessel...simply NULLIFY the directives of a planetary governor or something because it would interfere with the mission? (humans are NOT protected by the Prime Directive)

[TheDarkling]

Didn't Picard...a starfleet captain of one vessel...simply NULLIFY the directives of a planetary governor or something because it would interfere with the mission? (humans are NOT protected by the Prime Directive)

I'm going to need you to be a little more specific so I can identify the incident, what was the episode about?

[Enola Straight]

Uh...I think the guy's name was Mr. Colrami?

[TheDarkling]

Uh...I think the guy's name was Mr. Colrami?

Kolrami, the guy from the race of tactical geniuses? He was just some civilian consultant for Starfleet not a governor.

[Publius]

Indeed, one suspects that the United Federation of Planets is more like a European Union in space than like a United States of America or a United Nations Organization in space. The existence of a strong confederate government, the existence of a diplomatic infrastructure separate from that of the Federation (e.g., Ambassador Sarek) and the existence of semi-independent member states (e.g., Vulcan) point to something like the EU. In particular, the existence of internal diplomats is one of the strongest indications of the confederate organization (not to say operation) of the UFP, its name notwithstanding.

PUBLIUS