Tonight's Enterprise(spoilers)

[Hardy]

Exactly what is to be implied by the phrase "some sort of limitation" and the word "Genetic" as to the Xindi reptiles mental capacities?

The word "genetic" was referring to a genetic lockout mechanism that probably locks out one Xindi race from getting the other race's codes by detecting their inherent genetic structure in the interface.

By the phrase "some sort of limitation" I was referring to both an artificial limitation and an inherent mental or physiological limitation.

Let's not forget any codebreaking would require significant amount of computer work, systems with which Hoshi is unfamiliar with.

Hoshi has worked on a few Xindi computers throughout all of season three.

• The Xindi Shuttle on the planet in "Extinction"
  The Insectoid Shuttle In "Hatchery"
  The Aquatic Shuttle in "Damage"
  Degra's Ship in "Strategem"

She is familirar with Xindi technology and writng. She has the intution and knowledge to fluently read Xindi icons. There is no reason why she is unable.

And that Insectoids have no codebreakers that can beat a captured coerced prisoner even though in next 150 years it would be of critical importance.

The insectoids ahve a different Iconography. They likely cannot read the mainstream Xindi alphabet.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Hoshi has worked on a few Xindi computers throughout all of season three.

• The Xindi Shuttle on the planet in "Extinction"
  The Insectoid Shuttle In "Hatchery"
  The Aquatic Shuttle in "Damage"
  Degra's Ship in "Strategem"

She is familirar with Xindi technology and writng. She has the intution and knowledge to fluently read Xindi icons. There is no reason why she is unable.

I forgot, in ST using a few types of shuttles and ships makes you better qualified then trained hackers who spend years on the stuff.

The insectoids ahve a different Iconography. They likely cannot read the mainstream Xindi alphabet.

Ah, now Hoshi can FUCKING SPEAK XINDI DIALECTS BETTER. What, does the Incectoid on Board of Just as Evil just blabber on and not know what everyone else is saying.

[Hardy]

I forgot, in ST using a few types of shuttles and ships makes you better qualified then trained hackers who spend years on the stuff.

Note that Hoshi isn't doesn't exactly work on this alone. I would be surprised if she didn't have team of linguists and communications officiers around her.
And of course the question I responed to was if she coud correctly use the interface. Clearly she knows the interface of about four different ships and has quickly learned the language to some degree.
Now if you can figure out the basic rules of any language and then find the positive and neagative terming, you can accurately replicate a good portion of a language which is sufficient for communication

Ah, now Hoshi can FUCKING SPEAK XINDI DIALECTS BETTER. What, does the Incectoid on Board of Just as Evil just blabber on and not know what everyone else is saying.

I never said anything about the spoken language, just the written one. The Xindi Insectoid's visual perception is clearly different from the rest ofthe council. We saw in "Hatchery" how the Insectoids would read overlapping arrangements of octogonal shapes spread out over a dome, rather than the mainstream Xindi alphabet which consists of a circle surrounded by combonations of spikes located at different positions and quantities.
Now considering that they lived on a planet for thousands of years togethr, the more Humanoid species can become somewhat accustomed to the Insectoid spoken language and the Aquatic language.
Same for the insectoids. Their sensual perceptions may be different but the conversions are rendered moot if they have an idea of what their counterparts are saying.

Now as you recall, Hoshi was not speaking the Xindi language, nor has there been an occurence where she ever has spoken Xindi. She has however programmed a universal translator to do that job for translation she cant get intuitively. The UT works to allow understanding of a language to some extent.
Rember that Hoshi was translating for Archer, not the entire council. the council was gracious enoigh to give her time to speak.

.

[Patrick Degan]

Exactly what is to be implied by the phrase "some sort of limitation" and the word "Genetic" as to the Xindi reptiles mental capacities?

The word "genetic" was referring to a genetic lockout mechanism that probably locks out one Xindi race from getting the other race's codes by detecting their inherent genetic structure in the interface.

This was actually in the episode script?

By the phrase "some sort of limitation" I was referring to both an artificial limitation and an inherent mental or physiological limitation.

Then I must pose the question again: how could a race with some sort of inherent mental or physological limitation to intelligence possibly be able to travel in space?

[Sir Sirius]

Gah, you don't need spoiler space in a damned spoiler thread...

No one should use spoiler spaces anywhere. Since you still have to scroll down to read the rest of the thread they simply do not work. Better to use the Font size function instead and make spoilers size 1 or 2 (the Tiny setting isn't enough, that text can still be read).

[Admiral_K]

This was actually in the episode script?

No, the episode hasn't been seen yet as to why they wanted her. But it would hardly be beyond the realm of possibility.

By the phrase "some sort of limitation" I was referring to both an artificial limitation and an inherent mental or physiological limitation.

Then I must pose the question again: how could a race with some sort of inherent mental or physological limitation to intelligence possibly be able to travel in space?

Look, we've already addressed this issue. The Lizard men could have been uplifted by the other xindi races. Their lack of scientists or code breakers could also be a social one as well. Since they seem to be geared more towards the arts of war, they may leave the "less desirable" occupations to the other races. And Finally, while a species may be sufficiently intelligent to design ships and travel in space, they could still be unable to crack a sufficiently complex code.

[Admiral_K]

Arrogant little fuck, aren't you? But do ramble on...

Well if you would stop making rediculous leaps in logic, and throwing up your wall of ignorance when confronted I wouldn't be in a position to be "arrogant".

Wrong on both counts. The ability to do one necessarily implies the ability to do the other. This is why the initial argument doesn't make sense in the first place.

Um Bullshit. First of all, its not even stated that its a mathematical code to break. It could be some sort of language based code, or it could be written in an alien language that doesn't belong to any of the xindi races and Hoshi was his best available option. The ability to crack a code, or to have people available to crack the code, DOES NOT imply being unable to "comprehend mathematics.

Oh, and BTW, it was Hardy who said:

Right. Perhaps there may be some sort of limitation. Genetic, or the Xindi Reptillian brains are not smart enough to figure out these codes. They still could have captured a humanoid.

Exactly what is to be implied by the phrase "some sort of limitation" and the word "Genetic" as to the Xindi reptiles mental capacities?

No shit Sherlock. I went as far as to quote him. I also read what he fuckign wrote rather than making ridiculous leaps in logic to support unsubstantiated claims.

Secondly, considering that this plan to hijack the sphere was hastily put into action (which you probably didn't know, but not my fault if you speak out of ignorance), they most likely didn't have access to code breakers. Or perhaps they feel that since a mamillian mind developed the code, a mamillian mind would be better suited to cracking it faster then they could by doing it all themselves.

So... they put together a plan to hijack the Sphere o'Doom but none of them think to include a codebreaker along with the expedition in case the onboard computers just might possibly be encrypted.

They know the computers will be encrypted and they have a plan for it. They say as much when the othe Xindi tell them they won't be able to launch the weapon without the proper codes. They were acting under desperatin since Archer was beggining to sway the other Xindi races. They had to act with their best option available, which may have been hoshi.

And what difference should there be between a reptillian brain and a mamallian one in comprehending mathematics or carrying out a decryption exercise?

Since these are fictitious beings, they can have any limitations or differences the writers want them to have. Not the least of which, is that most mamillian brains could simply be more developed than the reptillian ones.

And I've never argued that the reptiles can't understand math (nice Strawman, BTW). I'm arguing that if they are at all capable of going into space, they must have this understanding to begin with. Which is what renders the kidnapping of Hoshi a very obvious and clumsy plot device.

None of this occured to you and yet you sneer at someone else alledgedly speaking from ignorance. Most amusing.

I have no need to make a strawman out of an argument that is already as weak as tissue paper.

Your agument is that since they are able to travel in space they MUST be able to crack whatever code is on the Xindi weapon. You support this with the assumption that if they can't break a security code, then they must be unable to do the Math proper to get into space.

But your assumption is a great leap in Logic. First of all, a complex understanding of Math doesn't mean you can automatically break a security code.

Ever hear of Navajo code talkers? In World War II the Japanese never broke the American "code" despite being very advanced in mathematics. This was because it was in a language that was completely foreign to them. And they had years to do so.

And for someone who hates Enterprise so much, you sure don't hesitate to throw in your ingorant comments based on whatever little you gleen from other posters.

[Patrick Degan]

Arrogant little fuck, aren't you? But do ramble on...

Well if you would stop making rediculous leaps in logic, and throwing up your wall of ignorance when confronted I wouldn't be in a position to be "arrogant".

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Wrong on both counts. The ability to do one necessarily implies the ability to do the other. This is why the initial argument doesn't make sense in the first place.

Um Bullshit. First of all, its not even stated that its a mathematical code to break. It could be some sort of language based code, or it could be written in an alien language that doesn't belong to any of the xindi races and Hoshi was his best available option. The ability to crack a code, or to have people available to crack the code, DOES NOT imply being unable to "comprehend mathematics.

Now who's leaping those logical fences? You're pulling sheer speculation out of the thinnest air possible to reach that little conclusion and it's still laughable. Ciphers are mathematically-based constructs, dimwit. Encrypton systems aren't designed around syllabic concepts but units of information.

Oh, and BTW, it was Hardy who said:

Right. Perhaps there may be some sort of limitation. Genetic, or the Xindi Reptillian brains are not smart enough to figure out these codes. They still could have captured a humanoid.

Exactly what is to be implied by the phrase "some sort of limitation" and the word "Genetic" as to the Xindi reptiles mental capacities?

No shit Sherlock. I went as far as to quote him. I also read what he fuckign wrote rather than making ridiculous leaps in logic to support unsubstantiated claims.

You quoted him but obviously decided to ignore the implication of the statement before going on to make your own unsubstantiated claims.

Secondly, considering that this plan to hijack the sphere was hastily put into action (which you probably didn't know, but not my fault if you speak out of ignorance), they most likely didn't have access to code breakers. Or perhaps they feel that since a mamillian mind developed the code, a mamillian mind would be better suited to cracking it faster then they could by doing it all themselves.

So... they put together a plan to hijack the Sphere o'Doom but none of them think to include a codebreaker along with the expedition in case the onboard computers just might possibly be encrypted.

They know the computers will be encrypted and they have a plan for it. They say as much when the othe Xindi tell them they won't be able to launch the weapon without the proper codes. They were acting under desperatin since Archer was beggining to sway the other Xindi races. They had to act with their best option available, which may have been hoshi.

If Hoshi is "their best available option", they obviously didn't have a plan or an incompetently executed plan. I ask again: why wasn't it possible for the reptiles to have their own experts along on the team chosen to pull the hijack?

And what difference should there be between a reptillian brain and a mamallian one in comprehending mathematics or carrying out a decryption exercise?

Since these are fictitious beings, they can have any limitations or differences the writers want them to have. Not the least of which, is that most mamillian brains could simply be more developed than the reptillian ones.

Oh no, you're not getting away with that little dodge. We're not talking about whatever reasons the writers may have had but how plausible it is that a race of space-traversing reptiles would nevertheless be mentally limited to the extent that they aren't capable of cracking a security code.

And I've never argued that the reptiles can't understand math (nice Strawman, BTW). I'm arguing that if they are at all capable of going into space, they must have this understanding to begin with. Which is what renders the kidnapping of Hoshi a very obvious and clumsy plot device.

None of this occured to you and yet you sneer at someone else alledgedly speaking from ignorance. Most amusing.

I have no need to make a strawman out of an argument that is already as weak as tissue paper.

Non-responsive bullshit.

Your agument is that since they are able to travel in space they MUST be able to crack whatever code is on the Xindi weapon. You support this with the assumption that if they can't break a security code, then they must be unable to do the Math proper to get into space.

Strawman. My argument is that the idea that they can do one but not the other is implausible to begin with.

But your assumption is a great leap in Logic. First of all, a complex understanding of Math doesn't mean you can automatically break a security code.

And why is that?

Ever hear of Navajo code talkers? In World War II the Japanese never broke the American "code" despite being very advanced in mathematics. This was because it was in a language that was completely foreign to them. And they had years to do so.

Yes I know all about the Navajo codetalkers, dimwit. They were used to prevent an enemy from reading our communiques. But we certainly don't employ Navajo codetalkers to protect ICBM launch codes from unauthourised personnel; neither is any encryption system in the present day based upon an obscure language, because computers deal with units of information and not syllabic constructs.

And for someone who hates Enterprise so much, you sure don't hesitate to throw in your ingorant comments based on whatever little you gleen from other posters.

An Ad-Hominem attack, eh? How boringly predictable.

[Patrick Degan]

This was actually in the episode script?

No, the episode hasn't been seen yet as to why they wanted her. But it would hardly be beyond the realm of possibility.

By the phrase "some sort of limitation" I was referring to both an artificial limitation and an inherent mental or physiological limitation.

Then I must pose the question again: how could a race with some sort of inherent mental or physological limitation to intelligence possibly be able to travel in space?

Look, we've already addressed this issue. The Lizard men could have been uplifted by the other xindi races. Their lack of scientists or code breakers could also be a social one as well. Since they seem to be geared more towards the arts of war, they may leave the "less desirable" occupations to the other races. And Finally, while a species may be sufficiently intelligent to design ships and travel in space, they could still be unable to crack a sufficiently complex code.

Words don't exist to describe the stupidity of your argument.

[Hardy]

This was actually in the episode script?

No. It's just me speaking Hypothetically.

Then I must pose the question again: how could a race with some sort of inherent mental or physological limitation to intelligence possibly be able to travel in space?

If they let Lance Bass travel through space, why cant the Reptillians go?

Excuse the poor joke.

But this limitation is only relatively speaking. The mamallian races likely put them into space. Perhaps there was a time of Xindi peace where they made an international effort to get into space.
The Reptillians could gvien the basic research and engineering rules nessesary to build spacecraft and then with the plans, calculations and materials made by the other Xindi to get into space. But following the inherent engineering rules the Reptillians may have been able to make their own design.

I think that you are also forgetting that even now, space travel is controlled mostly by computers that make the complex calculations nessesary for space travel. The Xindi Reptillians perhaps already know these equasions and just input the correct variables.
To put into perspective, the human mind can calculate the properties of a world with dimensions other than our four, but we cannot percieve dimensions beyond the normal four.
So perhaps your leap in logic is correct and they cannot percieve common mathmatics by themselves.

However in codebreaking you have to figure out the equasion at hand. There is no equasion provided.

[Admiral_K]

Funny you acuse me of Ad Hominem attacks when I've done nothing of the sort. Pointing out that you speak on things of which you are ignorant was simply stating a fact and had NOTHING to do with my argument. If you consider what I said an Ad Hominem, then you've commited multipled "Ad Hominem" attacks yourself.

Lets cut the bullshit and get down to the nitty gritty:

Your agument is that since they are able to travel in space they MUST be able to crack whatever code is on the Xindi weapon. You support this with the assumption that if they can't break a security code, then they must be unable to do the Math proper to get into space.

Strawman. My argument is that the idea that they can do one but not the other is implausible to begin with.

Isn't that what I just said? My interpretation of you argument:

"If they can Do A(travel in space), they MUST be able to do B(crack the code)."

You reply:

"Strawman: I'm just saying that if they can't Do B (crack the code), then they can't do A (travel in space)"

Since we KNOW they can do A (travel in space) , then that forces your argument to be what I've said it is. Your attempt to paint this as a strawman is ridiculous.

My argument is that B is not a pre-requisite of A or vice versa particularly given the unkown nature of the code, and unkown available personell to the lizards/insectoids.

Your sole motivation seems to be to try and force fit your criticism that this is a "plot device" in yet another trademark "Patrick Degan Bash Enterprise" rant.

[Admiral_K]

No, the episode hasn't been seen yet as to why they wanted her. But it would hardly be beyond the realm of possibility.
Then I must pose the question again: how could a race with some sort of inherent mental or physological limitation to intelligence possibly be able to travel in space?

Look, we've already addressed this issue. The Lizard men could have been uplifted by the other xindi races. Their lack of scientists or code breakers could also be a social one as well. Since they seem to be geared more towards the arts of war, they may leave the "less desirable" occupations to the other races. And Finally, while a species may be sufficiently intelligent to design ships and travel in space, they could still be unable to crack a sufficiently complex code.

Words don't exist to describe the stupidity of your argument.

Nice attempt at poisoning the well.

If you think the argument is "stupid" then lets here you tell us why. I'll then rip your statements to shreds because they will most likely be based on the mis-information you have stored in your brain.

[Patrick Degan]

This was actually in the episode script?

No. It's just me speaking Hypothetically.

Then we must wait for an actual script reference to decide that question.

But this limitation is only relatively speaking. The mamallian races likely put them into space. Perhaps there was a time of Xindi peace where they made an international effort to get into space.

The Reptillians could gvien the basic research and engineering rules nessesary to build spacecraft and then with the plans, calculations and materials made by the other Xindi to get into space. But following the inherent engineering rules the Reptillians may have been able to make their own design.

But in order to reverse-engineer anything, a basic understanding of engineering and mathematical concepts must exist in the first place. Otherwise the exercise is doomed to failure.

I think that you are also forgetting that even now, space travel is controlled mostly by computers that make the complex calculations nessesary for space travel. The Xindi Reptillians perhaps already know these equasions and just input the correct variables.

The reason for computer control is because a computer can operate far faster than a human being with a calculator or a slide-rule and control far more systems at once than is possible with wholly manual control.

To put into perspective, the human mind can calculate the properties of a world with dimensions other than our four, but we cannot percieve dimensions beyond the normal four. So perhaps your leap in logic is correct and they cannot percieve common mathmatics by themselves.

No, my argument has nothing to do with that at all.

However in codebreaking you have to figure out the equasion at hand. There is no equasion provided.

That is utterly ridiculous. The very essence of decryption is deriving the equation behind the code. It is immaterial whether that equation is "provided" or not; the only difference that makes is in how long it takes to break the cipher.

[Patrick Degan]

Funny you acuse me of Ad Hominem attacks when I've done nothing of the sort. Pointing out that you speak on things of which you are ignorant was simply stating a fact and had NOTHING to do with my argument. If you consider what I said an Ad Hominem, then you've commited multipled "Ad Hominem" attacks yourself.

Wrong, asshole. This is an argument about the plausibility of basic script concepts. And there is a distinct differerence between insult and attempting to discredit the argument by discrediting the man.

Lets cut the bullshit and get down to the nitty gritty:

I agree. Your bullshit is getting quite boring.

Your agument is that since they are able to travel in space they MUST be able to crack whatever code is on the Xindi weapon. You support this with the assumption that if they can't break a security code, then they must be unable to do the Math proper to get into space.

Strawman. My argument is that the idea that they can do one but not the other is implausible to begin with.

Isn't that what I just said? My interpretation of you argument:

"If they can Do A(travel in space), they MUST be able to do B(crack the code)."

You reply:

"Strawman: I'm just saying that if they can't Do B (crack the code), then they can't do A (travel in space)"

That was not my reply. Another strawman.

Since we KNOW they can do A (travel in space) , then that forces your argument to be what I've said it is. Your attempt to paint this as a strawman is ridiculous.

I'm sorry that it isn't possible to paint your bullshit in any other way.

My argument is that B is not a pre-requisite of A or vice versa particularly given the unkown nature of the code, and unkown available personell to the lizards/insectoids.

Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy.

Your sole motivation seems to be to try and force fit your criticism that this is a "plot device" in yet another trademark "Patrick Degan Bash Enterprise" rant.

And now we're down to Appeal to Motive, are we? Just no end to your stupidities in this thread.

[Hardy]

[
Then we must wait for an actual script reference to decide that question.

Agreed

But in order to reverse-engineer anything, a basic understanding of engineering and mathematical concepts must exist in the first place. Otherwise the exercise is doomed to failure.

You still assume that I am saying that they dont have a basic
understanding of mathmatics. I am quite sure that it is inherent as they are an advanced race.

I am making the assumption that the Reptillians didn't go into space on their own.

The reason for computer control is because a computer can operate far faster than a human being with a calculator or a slide-rule and control far more systems at once than is possible with wholly manual control.

Computers can not only produce controls, but they can also find geodesics or plot the shortest distance around an obstacle. They can also produce efficient design and make preojections on an object's behavior.

So, the Reptillian spacecraft can quite possibly be navigated by computer leaving the Reptilians only to take a tactical stance in their ships.

No, my argument has nothing to do with that at all.

Noted

That is utterly ridiculous. The very essence of decryption is deriving the equation behind the code. It is immaterial whether that equation is "provided" or not; the only difference that makes is in how long it takes to break the cipher.

Correct.
But the Xindi need to break this code in less than a day.
To find a code, one needs to find the nessesary algorithm that is encrypting the information. Once this algorithm is found, the code is wide open.
If you think about the Reptile brain development on Earth, after millions of years they still haven't changed too much. The fossil record and our current knowledge of Reptiles all say that there have been little to no reptiles with "large" brains.
Assuming that the Xindi homeworld (referred to as Xindus in the show) was about as old as Earth, or 4.5 billion years, we can assume that the evolutionary rate for the life on that planet was significanly faster. But we may also be able to assume that the rate of evolution for all Xindi is accelerated by the same factor comapred to Eart, but different rates.
Just think about that

But perhaps a more rational explaination for the Xindi kidnapping Ensign Sato could have been for both psychological effect which makes Archer hesitate to fire upon the weapon and secondarily for helping them break a difficult code. Perhaps the codebreaking is a bluff that the Reptillains are cold enough to perform and the Reptillains really do have a codebreaking team somewhere off camera.

[Patrick Degan]

But in order to reverse-engineer anything, a basic understanding of engineering and mathematical concepts must exist in the first place. Otherwise the exercise is doomed to failure.

You still assume that I am saying that they dont have a basic
understanding of mathmatics. I am quite sure that it is inherent as they are an advanced race.

Not quite. I'm pointing out how the fact that they must have this capacity makes a hash of the argument that they must somehow be mentally limited to the extent that they can't perform a decryption exercise.

The reason for computer control is because a computer can operate far faster than a human being with a calculator or a slide-rule and control far more systems at once than is possible with wholly manual control.

Computers can not only produce controls, but they can also find geodesics or plot the shortest distance around an obstacle. They can also produce efficient design and make preojections on an object's behavior.

So, the Reptillian spacecraft can quite possibly be navigated by computer leaving the Reptilians only to take a tactical stance in their ships.

But a spacecraft pilot has to understand navigation even if he's leaving most of the task up to the computer.

That is utterly ridiculous. The very essence of decryption is deriving the equation behind the code. It is immaterial whether that equation is "provided" or not; the only difference that makes is in how long it takes to break the cipher.

Correct. But the Xindi need to break this code in less than a day.
To find a code, one needs to find the nessesary algorithm that is encrypting the information. Once this algorithm is found, the code is wide open.

Then how is this task supposed to be performed any quicker by a kidnapped human?

If you think about the Reptile brain development on Earth, after millions of years they still haven't changed too much. The fossil record and our current knowledge of Reptiles all say that there have been little to no reptiles with "large" brains.

That's interesting but immaterial to this argument. The presumption is that the Xindi Reptiles are already intelligent.

Assuming that the Xindi homeworld (referred to as Xindus in the show) was about as old as Earth, or 4.5 billion years, we can assume that the evolutionary rate for the life on that planet was significanly faster. But we may also be able to assume that the rate of evolution for all Xindi is accelerated by the same factor comapred to Earth, but different rates.
Just think about that

That's not the way the evolution lottery works. A species that misses out on the pathway to intelligence is never going to get there. And a species that has yet to reach that path cannot be "uplifted" along the way (David Brin's goofy books notwithstanding).

But perhaps a more rational explaination for the Xindi kidnapping Ensign Sato could have been for both psychological effect which makes Archer hesitate to fire upon the weapon and secondarily for helping them break a difficult code. Perhaps the codebreaking is a bluff that the Reptillains are cold enough to perform and the Reptillains really do have a codebreaking team somewhere off camera.

Now you're speculating. In the script, she apparently is kidnapped for her codebreaking skills, nevermind that the Xindi should already have this ability and have a few codebreakers already on their raiding party to seize control of the Sphere o'Doom. And if they already have the ability to break the computer security on their own, then keeping a hostage is a liability. This is just another example of Plot Conveinence Theatre at play.

[Hardy]

I'm pointing out how the fact that they must have this capacity makes a hash of the argument that they must somehow be mentally limited to the extent that they can't perform a decryption exercise.

You are making a decryption sound like a simple thing here.

But a spacecraft pilot has to understand navigation even if he's leaving most of the task up to the computer.

That is true. To program the computer you would also need a basic knowledge of navigation. That, I do not dispute.

Then how is this task supposed to be performed any quicker by a kidnapped human?

The Kidnapped human may, again, have higher mental capacity and intuition required that that of a Reptillian.

The presumption is that the Xindi Reptiles are already intelligent.

Yes, but to what extent?

That's not the way the evolution lottery works. A species that misses out on the pathway to intelligence is never going to get there.

How exactly does a species miss out on the pathway to intellegence? I never said that. I said that the Terran reptiles were still not developing intellegence. I never said that they were stunted in that respect.

And a species that has yet to reach that path cannot be "uplifted" along the way (David Brin's goofy books notwithstanding).

Uplifted? Where did I say that?

Now you're speculating.

You mean I/we haven't started that already? Isn't that what this debate is about?

In the script, she apparently is kidnapped for her codebreaking skills, nevermind that the Xindi should already have this ability and have a few codebreakers already on their raiding party to seize control of the Sphere o'Doom.

Those are both indefinites. But if you go to the official website it seems that Hoshi has some support from other Reptillians. They Reptillians had less than a day to plan this operation. It may have been possible to assemble codebreakers though.

And if they already have the ability to break the computer security on their own, then keeping a hostage is a liability. This is just another example of Plot Conveinence Theatre at play.

Keeping the hostage may put Enterprise at ultimatum (sp) as to not directly firing upon the reptillian ship/weapon. I'm sure that they dont want to keep her alive anyway, being that she is human. I dont think that constitutes as a libaility.

[Patrick Degan]

I'm pointing out how the fact that they must have this capacity makes a hash of the argument that they must somehow be mentally limited to the extent that they can't perform a decryption exercise.

You are making a decryption sound like a simple thing here.

Not at all. But a race capable of understanding the mathematics behind astronavigation, which implies understanding of a host of scientific and mathematical disciplines to begin with, is not going to be incapable of carrying out a decryption exercise.

Then how is this task supposed to be performed any quicker by a kidnapped human?

The Kidnapped human may, again, have higher mental capacity and intuition required that that of a Reptillian.

Again, why?

The presumption is that the Xindi Reptiles are already intelligent.

Yes, but to what extent?

Don't be obtuse.

That's not the way the evolution lottery works. A species that misses out on the pathway to intelligence is never going to get there.

How exactly does a species miss out on the pathway to intellegence? I never said that. I said that the Terran reptiles were still not developing intellegence. I never said that they were stunted in that respect.

Do you even understand the concept of adaptive evolution? It doesn't happen by magick nor is the developement to intelligence a universal given.

And a species that has yet to reach that path cannot be "uplifted" along the way (David Brin's goofy books notwithstanding).

Uplifted? Where did I say that?

This seemed to imply it:

You seem to be ignoring the possibility of the other four races of the Xindi performing this research to get the Xindi-Reptillians into space. The Reptillians seem to be the military arm of the Xindi race, but it also seems that they have absolutely no interest in science or exploration. It is quite possible that the Reptilians got into space on the backs of the more "reasonable" races.

Now you're speculating.

You mean I/we haven't started that already? Isn't that what this debate is about?

No, this debate is about the plausibility of what was depicted in the episode, and the evidence to be examined is what occurred on screen.

In the script, she apparently is kidnapped for her codebreaking skills, nevermind that the Xindi should already have this ability and have a few codebreakers already on their raiding party to seize control of the Sphere o'Doom.

Those are both indefinites. But if you go to the official website it seems that Hoshi has some support from other Reptillians. The Reptillians had less than a day to plan this operation. It may have been possible to assemble codebreakers though.

That "possibility" is what undermines the plausibility of that entire plot point.

And if they already have the ability to break the computer security on their own, then keeping a hostage is a liability. This is just another example of Plot Conveinence Theatre at play.

Keeping the hostage may put Enterprise at ultimatum (sp) as to not directly firing upon the reptillian ship/weapon. I'm sure that they don't want to keep her alive anyway, being that she is human. I dont think that constitutes as a libaility.

There is no reason for the Reptiles to assume that their enemy would not decide to sacrifice one captured crewperson to destroy the Sphere o'Doom.

[Hardy]

I've been reading over a good number of my arguments. I dont belive that they are really solid enough to be valid. I'm going to leave Admiral K to dispute this and hopefully agre to disagree with you, Degan.

[Patrick Degan]

I've been reading over a good number of my arguments. I dont belive that they are really solid enough to be valid. I'm going to leave Admiral K to dispute this and hopefully agre to disagree with you, Degan.

Graciously accepted, Mr. Hardy.

[Admiral_K]

I could point out your blatant mis-use of each of these fallacys but its not worth the time.

The burden of proof is upon you to show why the ability to crack this security code must be present in a being in order for them to achieve interstellar space travel. If you can't prove it, then I win by default.

[Mange]

I hope that nothing bad happens to Hoshi

[Patrick Degan]

I could point out your blatant mis-use of each of these fallacys but its not worth the time.

Considering you've never known what the fuck you've been talking about, that would be quite comical indeed.

The burden of proof is upon you to show why the ability to crack this security code must be present in a being in order for them to achieve interstellar space travel. If you can't prove it, then I win by default.

Simple thing called "logic", actually. But I know that's a bit beyond you. Meantime, I'm not responsible for your delusional fantasies.

[Admiral_K]

Simple thing called "logic", actually. But I know that's a bit beyond you. Meantime, I'm not responsible for your delusional fantasies.

Well, lets hear your "logic". Tell me why the ability to crack a security "code" and interstellar travel are joined at the hip as you seem to imply.

[Crazedwraith]

Patrik Deegan, If they don't need Hoshi to break codes why do they need her? You have yet to offer an alternate explanation. Thus Adrimal K's stance has most canon backing IMHO.