How does the Federation produce antimatter?

[Patrick Degan]

In case of a warp core problem the AM container would (OK we are talking Trek, so should) be ejected in one unit, while the remaining warp core if needed goes out in another direction.
This supposes that they eject the non-AM containing part of the core, wi´hich may not be nessessary, probably what they mean when they say they are ejecting the warp core is that they are ejecting (only) the part that powers the warp drive: the AM containment field unit.

After the AM unit is ejected, the ship is unable to go to warp. But with an AM converter onboard they can just install a spare AM unit from the carried spare parts in the warp core and fill it with a small amount of AM from the converther, thus giving them the ability to reach the nearest refueling station, rather then just floating dead in space.

The problem with that theory is that dilithium is needed to moderate the reaction. Without a dilithium chamber (which presumably you wouldn't have without a warp core), Federation starships cannot properly harness matter/antimatter reactions. (ref. "Peak Performance", "The Drumhead")

[Sarevok]

It seems that that Federation starships require both deutorium and antimatter to operate. In "Deadlock" Voyger was crippled by lack of antimatter and in the "The Void" the same thing happened when Voygers deutorium supply was stolen.

[Chris OFarrell]

It seems that that Federation starships require both deutorium and antimatter to operate. In "Deadlock" Voyger was crippled by lack of antimatter and in the "The Void" the same thing happened when Voygers deutorium supply was stolen.

Well uh yeah. UFP ships anihilate Duterium and Antiduterium to produce energy. Antiduterium is rather useless by itself...unless you want to start vaping Voyager

[SirNitram]

It seems that that Federation starships require both deutorium and antimatter to operate. In "Deadlock" Voyger was crippled by lack of antimatter and in the "The Void" the same thing happened when Voygers deutorium supply was stolen.

Well uh yeah. UFP ships anihilate Duterium and Antiduterium to produce energy. Antiduterium is rather useless by itself...unless you want to start vaping Voyager

Vaporizing Voyager is never useless.

[Alyeska]

At best, AM is a nicely compact means of carrying energy around, but the Federation handles it so badly it's ships are dangerous.

Incorrect. The early Galaxy class ships are the only ones that ever had a real problem with its M/AM reactors. All other ships have had fairly safe records.

[Ted C]

At best, AM is a nicely compact means of carrying energy around, but the Federation handles it so badly it's ships are dangerous.

Incorrect. The early Galaxy class ships are the only ones that ever had a real problem with its M/AM reactors. All other ships have had fairly safe records.

The Galaxy-class has the most egregious safety record, but other Federation designs still suffer from lack of redundancy in safety systems, requirements for active human intervention in a crisis, and dependency on a central computer system.

And the Defiant-class isn't exactly a stellar design; apparently they're so over-powered for their size that the prototype almost blew itself up during testing.

The Galaxy-class warp core may be the most unstable design in Starfleet, but I suspect that most other classes share many of the same design flaws.

[SirNitram]

At best, AM is a nicely compact means of carrying energy around, but the Federation handles it so badly it's ships are dangerous.

Incorrect. The early Galaxy class ships are the only ones that ever had a real problem with its M/AM reactors. All other ships have had fairly safe records.

I wouldn't call 'Exploding violently' 'fairly safe'. We're still talking about a fleet whose ships normally exit combat via explosion, not gently drifting away. Yes, there have been exceptions, but the number of cook-offs are still frighteningly high.

[Alyeska]

At best, AM is a nicely compact means of carrying energy around, but the Federation handles it so badly it's ships are dangerous.

Incorrect. The early Galaxy class ships are the only ones that ever had a real problem with its M/AM reactors. All other ships have had fairly safe records.

I wouldn't call 'Exploding violently' 'fairly safe'. We're still talking about a fleet whose ships normally exit combat via explosion, not gently drifting away. Yes, there have been exceptions, but the number of cook-offs are still frighteningly high.

Not true. A great many of the ships in the Dominion war never exploded. They existed as burning or damaged hulks. Watch Sacrafice Angels, Tears of the Prophets, and What You Leave Behind for examples. Ships very rarely fully exploded even when under heavy damage.

The damage that Voyager took in Year of Hell and that the USS Galaxy took in Tears of the Prophets points out that most Starfleet ships can sustain heavy damage and their warpcores do not breach.

[SirNitram]

Incorrect. The early Galaxy class ships are the only ones that ever had a real problem with its M/AM reactors. All other ships have had fairly safe records.

I wouldn't call 'Exploding violently' 'fairly safe'. We're still talking about a fleet whose ships normally exit combat via explosion, not gently drifting away. Yes, there have been exceptions, but the number of cook-offs are still frighteningly high.

Not true. A great many of the ships in the Dominion war never exploded. They existed as burning or damaged hulks. Watch Sacrafice Angels, Tears of the Prophets, and What You Leave Behind for examples. Ships very rarely fully exploded even when under heavy damage.

The damage that Voyager took in Year of Hell and that the USS Galaxy took in Tears of the Prophets points out that most Starfleet ships can sustain heavy damage and their warpcores do not breach.

While I don't have access to the episodes you mentioned, I think you should learn something called Statistics if you think two instances mean 'most ships' will be exactly the same, Alyeska.

[Alyeska]

The Galaxy-class has the most egregious safety record, but other Federation designs still suffer from lack of redundancy in safety systems, requirements for active human intervention in a crisis, and dependency on a central computer system.

Requiring human intervention in a crisis isn't necessarily a bad thing because it can be used as a backup. Centeral computer systems are another issue entirely and is not directly related to warp core saftey.

And the Defiant-class isn't exactly a stellar design; apparently they're so over-powered for their size that the prototype almost blew itself up during testing.

Irrelevent example. These were problems with a prototype ship that were ironed out before the ship entered active service and production. It is not uncommon for ships to have even disasterous flaws that are only discovered durring testing.

The Galaxy-class warp core may be the most unstable design in Starfleet, but I suspect that most other classes share many of the same design flaws.

Incorrect. The original model Galaxy class had a warp core flaw that has not been seen by other ships. This flight of Galaxy was prone to warp core detonation under even minor damage to the ship itself. Other ships in Starfleet such as the Miranda, Excelsior, Intrepid, Constitution, Sovereign, Defiant, Akira, and Streamrunner class ships have taken excesive damage while the core did not detonate. Eventualy Starfleet fixed the issues with the Galaxy class and a upgraded model became the new standard (commonly called War GCS). The USS Galaxy is a prime example of a GCS taking heavy damage and still operating. Another GCS at the second battle of Chin'Toka had one nacelle blown off as well as the entire saucer section and part of the connecting neck, yet the warp core did not detonate.

[Alyeska]

I wouldn't call 'Exploding violently' 'fairly safe'. We're still talking about a fleet whose ships normally exit combat via explosion, not gently drifting away. Yes, there have been exceptions, but the number of cook-offs are still frighteningly high.

Not true. A great many of the ships in the Dominion war never exploded. They existed as burning or damaged hulks. Watch Sacrafice Angels, Tears of the Prophets, and What You Leave Behind for examples. Ships very rarely fully exploded even when under heavy damage.

The damage that Voyager took in Year of Hell and that the USS Galaxy took in Tears of the Prophets points out that most Starfleet ships can sustain heavy damage and their warpcores do not breach.

While I don't have access to the episodes you mentioned, I think you should learn something called Statistics if you think two instances mean 'most ships' will be exactly the same, Alyeska.

We have repeated examples of the USS Enterprise taking massive damage to its warp core even with relatively moderate enemy fire and several of its even exploding because of this. Yet throughout First Contact through DS9 and even VGR, we have a overwhelming majority of Starfleet ships not exploding and several taking massive damage and still functioning. Suddenly warp cores are still not exploding even when the ship is effectively blown to pieces by enemy fire.

Since First Contact, I can think of only two ships that have blown up totaly. A single Miranda was blown to pieces in Sacrafice Angels. The Defiant was also completely blown up. The damage from the final shot was more significant then all other shots and indicates warpcore failure. Even then, the Defiants warp core failure was much less powerful then most other examples. All other examples have the ships heavily damaged and effectively drifting hulks without the warp core detonating.

[Robert Walper]

We have repeated examples of the USS Enterprise taking massive damage to its warp core even with relatively moderate enemy fire and several of its even exploding because of this. Yet throughout First Contact through DS9 and even VGR, we have a overwhelming majority of Starfleet ships not exploding and several taking massive damage and still functioning. Suddenly warp cores are still not exploding even when the ship is effectively blown to pieces by enemy fire.

Since First Contact, I can think of only two ships that have blown up totaly. A single Miranda was blown to pieces in Sacrafice Angels. The Defiant was also completely blown up. The damage from the final shot was more significant then all other shots and indicates warpcore failure. Even then, the Defiants warp core failure was much less powerful then most other examples. All other examples have the ships heavily damaged and effectively drifting hulks without the warp core detonating.

Would referencing the Wolf 359 graveyard fleet help at all? IIRC, we saw many vessels there with massive damage (ie: saucers blow half off, etc) and yet the "common" warp core breach by all accounts should have obliterated most of vessels.

[Alyeska]

We have repeated examples of the USS Enterprise taking massive damage to its warp core even with relatively moderate enemy fire and several of its even exploding because of this. Yet throughout First Contact through DS9 and even VGR, we have a overwhelming majority of Starfleet ships not exploding and several taking massive damage and still functioning. Suddenly warp cores are still not exploding even when the ship is effectively blown to pieces by enemy fire.

Since First Contact, I can think of only two ships that have blown up totaly. A single Miranda was blown to pieces in Sacrafice Angels. The Defiant was also completely blown up. The damage from the final shot was more significant then all other shots and indicates warpcore failure. Even then, the Defiants warp core failure was much less powerful then most other examples. All other examples have the ships heavily damaged and effectively drifting hulks without the warp core detonating.

Would referencing the Wolf 359 graveyard fleet help at all? IIRC, we saw many vessels there with massive damage (ie: saucers blow half off, etc) and yet the "common" warp core breach by all accounts should have obliterated most of vessels.

Good point. Again we see heavily damaged but relatively intact (shape wise) hulks of a great many ships. Examples of ships blowing up via warpcore breaches leave very little in the way of large debris.

[Robert Walper]

Good point. Again we see heavily damaged but relatively intact (shape wise) hulks of a great many ships. Examples of ships blowing up via warpcore breaches leave very little in the way of large debris.

Given your arguements, it is sounding more and more like the arguement "Federation warp cores detonate if you sneeze at them" is a distorted interpretation based heavily around the fact one class seems to have had this fault, and that we specifically followed this one class for an entire series of Trek.

[Luzifer's right hand]

Thx for the TM quotes Chris OFarrell.

A net energy loss of only 24% seems very efficent in the light of the efficacy of our current antimatter production technology.

[Chris OFarrell]

It is a HUGE distortion of the facts to clam Federation ships warp cores are hughly unstable time bombs that will detonate if you so much as look at them crosseyed, yet a heck of a lot of people like to perpetuate the myth.

The ONLY ship class that has shown a problem with the warp core and related technology is the early Galaxy class. Like the Enterprise, Yamamoto and Odyessy. Even so, by the Dominion war the first flight had been upgraded to the newer standards that were far more stable. As has been said at Chintaka, the USS Galaxy, the FIRST of the class took heavy blows to critical areas. Including chewing a bite out of the Saucer section, blasting the neck and nacelle, and a direct hit to where the warp core sits! And it simply kept flying on and fired back at the OWP!

In the fleet wreckage of the Chintaka battle, we see a dead and drifting Galaxy. No core explosion there. Nor could they have ejected the core thanks to the energy dampening systems.

In Equionx, we see the USS Equinox has taken damage possibly even worse then Voyager in 'Year of Hell', yet their core didn't blow sky high. Well it DID in the end, but thats because the aliens beamed into the engine room and physicaly destroyed the core.

In Year of Hell of course Voyager takes perhaps more damage then any Starfleet ship we ever see, no core Breach there. Even when she rams the damn timeship! Or when she crash landed on that ice planet in timeless, the core and antimatter supplies maintained their integrity for over 15 years without power.

Numerous ships in the First Contact battle got blasted appart, but there was no warp core breachs to be seen.

Nor in the graveyard at Wolf 359. As far as we know, the Saratoga was the only ship to have a core Breach at 359, and that was a ship that was under constent fire from the Cube during the entire time. The Melbourne simply had most of its saucer section vaporised and left to drift, dito most of the wrecks we see in the graveyard.

The Defiant has never had a problem with the core going to breach, despite often massive combat damage. Sure when it was being PROTOTYPED and under tests it had problems, but that problem was quickly fixed by DS9's crew and the ship never had a warp core issue.

So in short, I can't see ANY evidence for the idea that Starfleet ships have a wide ranging problem with their warp cores. Its more of an urben legend perpetuated by certian factions.



On other topics.

The cube in FC didn't realy apper to be heavily damaged. Data claimed the otuer hull had sustained heavy damage, but there is no real evidence of it. If you look at the cube in 'Collective', THATS a cube thats taken major damage to the outer hull. And Seven of Nine was confused, the damage she said wasn't that great and should have regenerative. Hell the cube in BOBW got great chunks ripped out of it by the E-Ds phasers and in no less then about half an hour it had regenerated the damage.

ANd if you look at a cube shape, you might be able to turn the surface into something that looks like the moon, but the majority of the ships voulme won't be touched. The Starfleet ships appeared to be specificaly targeting weapons emplacemenets on the cubes surface, we see quite a few knocked ou in the background of the battle. The E-E also blasts one with a pair of torpedoes as she runs in to rescue the Defiant. The power grid fluctuating might mean a lot of things. If the cube is regenerating certian systems, power will be diverted all over the place.

Its clear Starfleet was doing quite a bit of Damage to the cube...but at the rate the last of the Starfleet ships were falling off....I don't think they would have been able to stop the cube before they were all taken out.

Realy the Collective SHOULD have send a couple of Cubes, but the single one they sent WOULD have been sufficient if not for Picard comming in, unless another Federation fleet was on its way and going to arrive soon.

We know the Borg will send many ships if needed, like in 'Hope and Fear', we hear from a species that was assimilated. The Collective send hundreds of Cubes to stomp their asses down because they had been evading them for so long.

[Uraniun235]

Hell the cube in BOBW got great chunks ripped out of it by the E-Ds phasers and in no less then about half an hour it had regenerated the damage.

You're thinking of Q Who. The only damage we ever saw Starfleet weapons do to the cube in BOBW was when a tractor emitter was destroyed early on in Part 1.

Also, what episode is the Chintoka assault in? I want to see Galaxy getting chunks torn out of her.

[Stofsk]

Also, what episode is the Chintoka assault in? I want to see Galaxy getting chunks torn out of her.

Season 6 finale "Tears of the Prophets," memorable for Sisko abandoning the battle due to a head ache ("I felt ... a disturbance in the Force... er, I mean the Prophets..."), Kira winning the battle with a technobabble solution, Garak manning a station on the Defiant (I like Garak, don't get me wrong, but this is a bit much. At least put on the uniform and be given a field commission), and Jadzia Dax having the lamest death scene in ST for a main character (if I recall correctly Tasha Yar at the very least had her phaser drawn, Jadzia was still fumbling for her own when Dukat zapped her).

It does boast a pretty display of Starfleet, Klingon, and Romulan ships duking it out with the OWPs orbiting Chintoka, and getting heavily damaged as a result. The War GCS can take an impressive amount of damage. We see Warbirds get bruised, idiot Klingons getting whacked, more starfleet ships buying it - but I didn't like the inelegant solution to the problem. It just seemed like another cop-out akin to "Sacrifice of Angels" where the Federation still wins inspite being hit hard.

And the episodes ends with Sisko peeling spuds. Make of that what you will.

[Uraniun235]

What the hell is the writers' aversion to just showing a straight-up fight anyway? Why does it always have to end by some rabbit out of the hat?

[Patrick Degan]

What the hell is the writers' aversion to just showing a straight-up fight anyway? Why does it always have to end by some rabbit out of the hat?

Because they hopelessly write themselves into corners which only the resort to a technobabble hat-trick can provide the escape.

[Sarevok]

What the hell is the writers' aversion to just showing a straight-up fight anyway? Why does it always have to end by some rabbit out of the hat?

That annoyed me too. Straight up fightis that are settled by weapons and tactics are better than fights settled by technobabble.

[Robert Walper]

What the hell is the writers' aversion to just showing a straight-up fight anyway? Why does it always have to end by some rabbit out of the hat?

That annoyed me too. Straight up fightis that are settled by weapons and tactics are better than fights settled by technobabble.

The problem in the case with the Borg against the Federation, straight up fights get the Federation slaughtered.

[Patrick Degan]

What the hell is the writers' aversion to just showing a straight-up fight anyway? Why does it always have to end by some rabbit out of the hat?

That annoyed me too. Straight up fightis that are settled by weapons and tactics are better than fights settled by technobabble.

The problem in the case with the Borg against the Federation, straight up fights get the Federation slaughtered.

No, stupid tactics get the Federation slaughtered.

[Sarevok]

What the hell is the writers' aversion to just showing a straight-up fight anyway? Why does it always have to end by some rabbit out of the hat?

That annoyed me too. Straight up fightis that are settled by weapons and tactics are better than fights settled by technobabble.

The problem in the case with the Borg against the Federation, straight up fights get the Federation slaughtered.

Not necessarily. Large fleet level firepower can decimate Borg cubes.

[General Zod]

That annoyed me too. Straight up fightis that are settled by weapons and tactics are better than fights settled by technobabble.

The problem in the case with the Borg against the Federation, straight up fights get the Federation slaughtered.

Not necessarily. Large fleet level firepower can decimate Borg cubes.

and we saw how well THAT worked at wolf 359. . .oh wait, it didn't.