The Length of the Battle in FC

[Dark Primus]

During the six years gap between TNG "Best of Both Worlds" and First Contact I believe Starfleet have made warp drives faster, from Enterprise D maximum warp of 9.7, to Voyagers 9.92. Enterprise-E came into service after Voyager and more likely faster.

[JME2]

There is no way this battle lasted more than a day, and likely not more than a few hours. Most starship combat we've seen is usually over in a few minutes, and it is unlikely starfleet could pour enough ships to make the battle last that long.

There may have been skirmishes along the way to Earth, but it is likely they simply amassed their fleet at Earth since that gave them the most time to prepare.

I'd think at least a couple of days. It's also reasonable that Starfleet had been building up a huge fleet presence in their Core since Wolf 359.

One least side issue - we also know that the Defiant fought the entire engagement since Worf and the Defiant can be heard when Picard and co. tune into the battle on the bridge - the fact that she survived while other ships fell is a testament to her builders.

[Sarevok]

I'd think at least a couple of days. It's also reasonable that Starfleet had been building up a huge fleet presence in their Core since Wolf 359.

There is no way the battle could last a few days. Starfleet simply does not have enough ships to last that long against a Borg cube.

[JME2]

I'd think at least a couple of days. It's also reasonable that Starfleet had been building up a huge fleet presence in their Core since Wolf 359.

There is no way the battle could last a few days. Starfleet simply does not have enough ships to last that long against a Borg cube.

I meant a running battle of several days with Fed ships chasing the Cube from Typhon all the way to 001.

[Robert Walper]

Starfleet must have sustained heavy losses, which were never mentioned in DS9, for instance... (afaik)

It should be noted that, that as of ST: Insurrection, the Dominion war was over(correct me if I'm wrong). And near the beginning of that movie, Picard mentioned quote "Given the losses we've sustained against the Borg and the Dominion, Starfleet feels we need all the allies we can get."

I found this interesting, because if the Dominion war was over at this time, the Borg inflicted casualties were of sufficient magnitude that the Federation flagship captain would mention them on par with Starfleet's casualties during a full scale and massive war. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but he did mention the Borg inflicted losses first.

At any rate, that was just against a single cube...

[Publius]

On the other hand, given his personal trauma at the hand(s) of the Borg Collective, it is entirely possible that he mentioned Borg-inflicted losses first because they instinctively occupy a prominent place in his mind. Or it is entirely possible that he simply listed the losses in order from least to most, or in chronological order. One should be careful not to read too much from casual dialogue, sir.

PUBLIUS

[Robert Walper]

On the other hand, given his personal trauma at the hand(s) of the Borg Collective, it is entirely possible that he mentioned Borg-inflicted losses first because they instinctively occupy a prominent place in his mind. Or it is entirely possible that he simply listed the losses in order from least to most, or in chronological order. One should be careful not to read too much from casual dialogue, sir.

PUBLIUS

I did point out that I could easily be reading too much in the order which he listed the casualties.

However, my main point was that Picard mentioned the Borg inflicted casualties at all in conjunction with the entire Dominion war. This suggests they were of sufficient magnitude to be a significant, perhaps even dominate, percentage of Starfleet's overall losses.

[Stofsk]

However, my main point was that Picard mentioned the Borg inflicted casualties at all in conjunction with the entire Dominion war. This suggests they were of sufficient magnitude to be a significant, perhaps even dominate, percentage of Starfleet's overall losses.

No way was it dominate. I'm sorry, but when you have a war with a power like the Dominion which lasts 2 years, and fleet losses number in the hundreds, there is no way a day-long battle with a single Borg cube is going to compare.

Likely Picard named two cataclysmic events that happened in recent memory and within such close proximity to one another (6 months after the Borg "incursion" the Dominion declare war) that their effect would still be felt - while I don't believe the battle in FC was very long or inflicted a lot of casualties it did put the Federation at grave risk (thanks to the time-hopping sphere).

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

On the other hand, given his personal trauma at the hand(s) of the Borg Collective, it is entirely possible that he mentioned Borg-inflicted losses first because they instinctively occupy a prominent place in his mind. Or it is entirely possible that he simply listed the losses in order from least to most, or in chronological order. One should be careful not to read too much from casual dialogue, sir.

PUBLIUS

I did point out that I could easily be reading too much in the order which he listed the casualties.

However, my main point was that Picard mentioned the Borg inflicted casualties at all in conjunction with the entire Dominion war. This suggests they were of sufficient magnitude to be a significant, perhaps even dominate, percentage of Starfleet's overall losses.

Yes, that makes sense. Much more sense then the fact that thats the order the losses occured chronologically.

[Robert Walper]

I did point out that I could easily be reading too much in the order which he listed the casualties.

However, my main point was that Picard mentioned the Borg inflicted casualties at all in conjunction with the entire Dominion war. This suggests they were of sufficient magnitude to be a significant, perhaps even dominate, percentage of Starfleet's overall losses.

Yes, that makes sense. Much more sense then the fact that thats the order the losses occured chronologically.

Ignoring the chronological aspect here, the fact is Picard thought the Borg inflicted losses were of sufficient magnitude to be mentioned hand in hand with the losses during the Dominion war. I take this to mean that the Borg assault during ST:FC inflicted massive starship losses.

[Robert Walper]

However, my main point was that Picard mentioned the Borg inflicted casualties at all in conjunction with the entire Dominion war. This suggests they were of sufficient magnitude to be a significant, perhaps even dominate, percentage of Starfleet's overall losses.

No way was it dominate.

Quit asserting shit unless you can prove it. I suggested it was possible, I wasn't asserting the Borg inflicted losses were dominate.

I'm sorry, but when you have a war with a power like the Dominion which lasts 2 years, and fleet losses number in the hundreds, there is no way a day-long battle with a single Borg cube is going to compare.

Explain how you can assert that without submitting reasons and evidence the Federation would be incapable of or unwilling to muster a large fleet to repulse a massive incoming threat towards Earth. Particularily since they had significant amount of warning time.

[Stofsk]

Quit asserting shit unless you can prove it. I suggested it was possible, I wasn't asserting the Borg inflicted losses were dominate.

Oh, really?

Ignoring the chronological aspect here, the fact is Picard thought the Borg inflicted losses were of sufficient magnitude to be mentioned hand in hand with the losses during the Dominion war. I take this to mean that the Borg assault during ST:FC inflicted massive starship losses.

Wow. What was that? I think it was... an unjustified assertion. Why don't you offer proof? You didn't suggest it was possible, you outright said the battle in FC inflicted massive losses. That's an assertion, so prove it. Furthermore you suggested the possibility the battle which could have lasted a day inflicted more casualties than a 2-year total war. I don't see the difference between making a statement that asserts something, then later qualifying it as a "possibility."

I'm sorry, but when you have a war with a power like the Dominion which lasts 2 years, and fleet losses number in the hundreds, there is no way a day-long battle with a single Borg cube is going to compare.

Explain how you can assert that without submitting reasons and evidence the Federation would be incapable of or unwilling to muster a large fleet to repulse a massive incoming threat towards Earth. Particularily since they had significant amount of warning time.

The war with the Klingons stretched Starfleet thin, a problem which Starfleet encountered later on in DS9 "In Purgatory's Shadow" when Sisko told his crew that they couldn't expect speedy reinforcements due to these reasons. Not only that but BOBW established the precedent of poor response time in Starfleet's ships when Earth is faced with assault. How many ships were mustered for that engagement, Robert? A mere 40 starships. Out of a fleet of hundreds, perhaps thousands. And what was the warning time they had? A couple of days? A week?

So getting back to the battle in FC - tell me how many ships were destroyed, seeing's you're the one who suggested the Borg incursion was the most damaging ("Oh! I suggested it as a possibility, not an assertion."). Tell me how long the battle lasted - did it last over 2 years, which was the length of the Dominion war? Did the Borg cube destroy numerous fleets, as Starfleet lost in that particular war?

[Robert Walper]

Quit asserting shit unless you can prove it. I suggested it was possible, I wasn't asserting the Borg inflicted losses were dominate.

Oh, really?

Yes, really. And if you had passable reading skills, you'd notice I wasn't contradicting myself as you're attempting to imply.

Ignoring the chronological aspect here, the fact is Picard thought the Borg inflicted losses were of sufficient magnitude to be mentioned hand in hand with the losses during the Dominion war. I take this to mean that the Borg assault during ST:FC inflicted massive starship losses.

Wow. What was that? I think it was... an unjustified assertion. Why don't you offer proof?

Picard's statement is the evidence by which I submit Starfleet suffered heavy losses at the hand of the Borg.

You didn't suggest it was possible, you outright said the battle in FC inflicted massive losses. That's an assertion, so prove it.

Note: I was pointing out Picard's mention of the Borg's losses along side with the Dominion ones as an indication of the magnitude of the number of ships the cube cost Starfleet.

And I'm disputing your claim that I was "asserting" the Borg losses relative to the Dominion ones were dominate. I said that was possible, I was not asserting so.

Furthermore you suggested the possibility the battle which could have lasted a day inflicted more casualties than a 2-year total war. I don't see the difference between making a statement that asserts something, then later qualifying it as a "possibility."

Learn to read. Taking Picard's statement, I've submitted the Borg inflicted heavy losses upon Starfleet. I then suggested the possibility such losses might have been greater then that of the Dominion war.

Explain how you can assert that without submitting reasons and evidence the Federation would be incapable of or unwilling to muster a large fleet to repulse a massive incoming threat towards Earth. Particularily since they had significant amount of warning time.

The war with the Klingons stretched Starfleet thin, a problem which Starfleet encountered later on in DS9 "In Purgatory's Shadow" when Sisko told his crew that they couldn't expect speedy reinforcements due to these reasons.

Was this reinforcements of Earth or DS9? Those locations are seperate, and vast distances from eachother. It would make sense if Starfleet is maintaining a strong core defense, and thus reinforcements to DS9 or relative areas would require time.

Not only that but BOBW established the precedent of poor response time in Starfleet's ships when Earth is faced with assault. How many ships were mustered for that engagement, Robert? A mere 40 starships. Out of a fleet of hundreds, perhaps thousands. And what was the warning time they had? A couple of days? A week?

Pre-war era, idiot! As of STVOY "Endgame", Starfleet could muster eighteen starships with minutes of warning. Given a few hours or days of warning time, a couple of hundred most certainly wouldn't be out of the question. Particularily since Starfleet would know just how dangerous a threat the Borg are.

So getting back to the battle in FC - tell me how many ships were destroyed, seeing's you're the one who suggested the Borg incursion was the most damaging ("Oh! I suggested it as a possibility, not an assertion.").

Yes, I suggested it as a possiblity. Your limited reading comprehension is your problem, not mine.

Tell me how long the battle lasted - did it last over 2 years, which was the length of the Dominion war?

Irrelevent. Two years would not be required to destroy hundreds of Starfleet ships. Only their collective presence and a superior enemy destroying that many forces.

Did the Borg cube destroy numerous fleets, as Starfleet lost in that particular war?

Possibly. No one knows how many fleets or ships actually took part in the assault upon the cube. I said it before, and I'll say it again. Picard's choice to mention Borg losses along side Dominion ones suggests the Borg inflicted heavy casualties on Starfleet, even relative to the Dominon war. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

[Stofsk]

Picard's statement is the evidence by which I submit Starfleet suffered heavy losses at the hand of the Borg.

So all you have is Picard mentioning "losses" from the Borg attack and the Dominion war, and from this you take to mean Starfleet suffered heavy losses, possibly dominate losses? You honestly don't see the problem here, do you?

Note: I was pointing out Picard's mention of the Borg's losses along side with the Dominion ones as an indication of the magnitude of the number of ships the cube cost Starfleet.

Which you have no data on.

And I'm disputing your claim that I was "asserting" the Borg losses relative to the Dominion ones were dominate. I said that was possible, I was not asserting so.

An assertion is by definition a forthright statement. Y'know, like saying "I take this to mean that the Borg assault during ST:FC inflicted massive starship losses." When compared next to the Dominion War, which sees fleet casualties up in the hundreds, I don't think the Borg could have inflicted the same level of destruction.

Learn to read. Taking Picard's statement, I've submitted the Borg inflicted heavy losses upon Starfleet. I then suggested the possibility such losses might have been greater then that of the Dominion war.

Hey numbnuts - taking a piece of dialogue that is open to interpretation doesn't make you flash, nor does it necessarily provide evidence for your position. Picard mentioned the losses incured by the Borg in the same sentence as he did the Dominion War - that's it. No fleet numbers, no casualty lists, nothing. Just a scrap of dialogue before the rest of the film went on.

From this, you suggest the "possibility" that therefore Starfleet suffered heavy losses (possible, not disputing that), and that somehow they may have been "dominate" (which is what I am disputing).

From this, others have suggested different "possibilities," such as the stunning revelation that perhaps Picard was merely recounting the two events chronologically.

Was this reinforcements of Earth or DS9? Those locations are seperate, and vast distances from eachother. It would make sense if Starfleet is maintaining a strong core defense, and thus reinforcements to DS9 or relative areas would require time.

It would make sense, wouldn't it? It would also make sense to have a fleet in easy reach of DS9, which is so close to the Dominion, wouldn't it? It would also make sense to keep a fleet near the Klingon and Romulan borders, to make sure those two nations keep to their side, wouldn't it?

And it would also make sense, given that the Klingon war was chronologically before the Borg incursion, that Starfleet suffered some ship losses and was forced to reposition some of it's fleets. And further, the Borg incursion may have been completely unexpected, throwing Starfleet into chaos. Which is why Sisko said "Thanks to war with the Klingons and the recent Borg attack, Starfleet's stretched pretty thin."

And seeings this point somehow mutated into what it is currently, when my original point was "how can a day-long battle compare to a two-year war" I have no idea what the hell you are on about. Especially when you didn't answer me. How exactly can a single Borg attack compare to war involving thousands of ships?

Pre-war era, idiot!

Hey, fuck you arsehole. You asked for precedent, I provided it. Maybe Starfleet cleaned up their act after BOBW and before FC. Or maybe they didn't, seeings a Breen strike force could bombard San Francisco in one of the later DS9 episodes. Or ADM Leyton could only send the USS Lakota out to intercept the USS Defiant in "Paradise Lost." Or when Starfleet could only send 15 ships to the neutral zone, where twice that number of Romulan ships were gathering in "All Good Things..." Or when an ADM voiced concerns about "Earth's vulnerability" when planning the attack on DS9 in "Favour the Bold." Maybe Starfleet needs to play some more chess, they don't seem to be too good at strategy. And all of the above happened in times of heightened security ("All Good Things..." "Paradise Lost") or outright wartime (DS9), and yet Starfleet still had problems dealing with strategy.

*snip Endgame*

So to prove Starfleet's response time in relation to the Borg attack in First Contact you provide an episode which takes place years after the events in First Contact? Stunning. And yet you criticise me for citing an episode that was pre-war.

Yes, I suggested it as a possiblity. Your limited reading comprehension is your problem, not mine.

Funny, how other people mentioned other possibilities from the same evidence you cite, and yet you had a problem with them as well. If it's only a possibility then perhaps you should stop acting like a brat and realise there are no full answers in this case, only interpretations.

Irrelevent. Two years would not be required to destroy hundreds of Starfleet ships. Only their collective presence and a superior enemy destroying that many forces.

Possibly. No one knows how many fleets or ships actually took part in the assault upon the cube.

Riiiight. Which is why in BOBW only 40 starships, out of a fleet of hundreds, perhaps thousands, were destroyed when the Borg attacked. Yep, no precedent there...

So now a Borg cube can tear through fleets numbering in the hundreds, eh?

I said it before, and I'll say it again. Picard's choice to mention Borg losses along side Dominion ones suggests the Borg inflicted heavy casualties on Starfleet, even relative to the Dominon war. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

Because you interpret the dialogue to fit your view of Borg supremacy. While I and others choose to interpret the dialogue within context; maybe Picard recounted two events in chronological order? Maybe Picard recounted the Borg attack based on psychological scarring? Maybe Picard recounted two similar events - ones involving loss of life and ships - that happened within similar timeframes? Maybe the attack was fresh on Picard's mind as he had come from a strategic evaluation session with SFC, and they determined the weaknesses in Starfleet's positioning of assets? Maybe Picard had a bad dream about the Borg and had them on his mind? Can you seriously look at any one of the above and declare them wrong? They're using the same proof you cite, just interpreting it differently.

Maybe there are other "possibilities" that are different from your own, Robert. When you suggest something which by all rights qualifies as an assertion, and then submit shaky dialogue as "proof", you say "Oh, don't worry - it's just a possibility." When I put forward my view of the exact opposite, you start hitting the button and scream "Show proof!" So let me point your question back at you, and rephrase slightly: why is it so difficult for you to grasp that other people may think differently about the Borg?

[Robert Walper]

Picard's statement is the evidence by which I submit Starfleet suffered heavy losses at the hand of the Borg.

So all you have is Picard mentioning "losses" from the Borg attack and the Dominion war, and from this you take to mean Starfleet suffered heavy losses, possibly dominate losses? You honestly don't see the problem here, do you?

No, I don't.

Let me get this straight. It is your opinion that Starfleet mustered only a few ships against the Borg cube, despite them fully aware a cube can obliterate forty of them without breaking a sweat? Riight.

Note: I was pointing out Picard's mention of the Borg's losses along side with the Dominion ones as an indication of the magnitude of the number of ships the cube cost Starfleet.

Which you have no data on.

No hard data, just speculation. Given that Picard would mention Borg inflicted losses alongside Dominion ones, I feel it's quite reasonable to conclude the Borg did so on a relatively similar scale, or at least large enough to warrant including them.

An assertion is by definition a forthright statement. Y'know, like saying "I take this to mean that the Borg assault during ST:FC inflicted massive starship losses."

Which in no way is me asserting the losses were dominate relative to the Dominion war. Thank you for confirming what I was saying.

When compared next to the Dominion War, which sees fleet casualties up in the hundreds, I don't think the Borg could have inflicted the same level of destruction.

And yet Picard mentioned Borg inflicted losses when mentioning the Dominion. Doesn't make much sense if the Borg cube only destroyed a handful of starships compared the the Dominion war destroying hundreds. Especially when he's recounting the level of damage(you know..."losses").

Learn to read. Taking Picard's statement, I've submitted the Borg inflicted heavy losses upon Starfleet. I then suggested the possibility such losses might have been greater then that of the Dominion war.

Hey numbnuts - taking a piece of dialogue that is open to interpretation doesn't make you flash, nor does it necessarily provide evidence for your position. Picard mentioned the losses incured by the Borg in the same sentence as he did the Dominion War - that's it. No fleet numbers, no casualty lists, nothing. Just a scrap of dialogue before the rest of the film went on.

Exactly. I'm just not buying your attempt to imply the Borg assault was just a "minor" incident compared to the Dominion war. The fact Picard would mention Borg losses next to Dominion ones implies by default said losses must have been of significant scale in comparison.

From this, you suggest the "possibility" that therefore Starfleet suffered heavy losses (possible, not disputing that), and that somehow they may have been "dominate" (which is what I am disputing).

If you're disputing an assertion that Borg losses were dominate, there's no arguement. I merely submitted that as speculation.

From this, others have suggested different "possibilities," such as the stunning revelation that perhaps Picard was merely recounting the two events chronologically.

Bullshit. He was talking specifically about inflicted casualties, not chronological events.

And seeings this point somehow mutated into what it is currently, when my original point was "how can a day-long battle compare to a two-year war" I have no idea what the hell you are on about.

Simple. Time frames are irrelevent. By your arguement, it would be unreasonable to suggest a ISD could destroy hundreds of Federation starships within a short time frame, because the Domnion did so only over a two year period. What matters is fleet deployment and preparation for upcoming battles. Since Starfleet by all accounts had significant warning time before the Borg incursion, there's no reason they could not have gathered a large scale fleet to intercept the Borg cube.

Especially when you didn't answer me. How exactly can a single Borg attack compare to war involving thousands of ships?

See above.

Yes, I suggested it as a possiblity. Your limited reading comprehension is your problem, not mine.

Funny, how other people mentioned other possibilities from the same evidence you cite, and yet you had a problem with them as well.

Except I'm dealing and interpreting with what Picard was actually talking about(losses), while others are submitting off base ideas like "chronological events".

If it's only a possibility then perhaps you should stop acting like a brat and realise there are no full answers in this case, only interpretations.

Picard was specifially talking about casualties Starfleet had suffered. Explain why he would mention Borg losses along side Dominion ones, without attempting to inject a Red Herring by suggesting he was talking about something else, like chronological order of said attacks.

So now a Borg cube can tear through fleets numbering in the hundreds, eh?

Quite possibly. The fact Picard would consider Borg inflicted losses being of sufficient magnitude to be mentioned alongside Dominion ones implies so.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. Picard's choice to mention Borg losses along side Dominion ones suggests the Borg inflicted heavy casualties on Starfleet, even relative to the Dominon war. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

Because you interpret the dialogue to fit your view of Borg supremacy. While I and others choose to interpret the dialogue within context; maybe Picard recounted two events in chronological order?

Picard talking about Starfleet casualties.

Maybe Picard recounted the Borg attack based on psychological scarring?

See above.

Maybe Picard recounted two similar events - ones involving loss of life and ships - that happened within similar timeframes?

See above.

Maybe the attack was fresh on Picard's mind as he had come from a strategic evaluation session with SFC, and they determined the weaknesses in Starfleet's positioning of assets?

See above.

Maybe Picard had a bad dream about the Borg and had them on his mind?

See above.

Can you seriously look at any one of the above and declare them wrong?

Pretty much. Picard was talking about Starfleet losses. You've resorted to attempting to imply he was talking about something else.

They're using the same proof you cite, just interpreting it differently.

In case you missed it, Picard was talking about Starfleet losses.

Maybe there are other "possibilities" that are different from your own, Robert.

In other words: "Maybe Picard wasn't talking about Starfleet losses."

When you suggest something which by all rights qualifies as an assertion, and then submit shaky dialogue as "proof", you say "Oh, don't worry - it's just a possibility." When I put forward my view of the exact opposite, you start hitting the button and scream "Show proof!" So let me point your question back at you, and rephrase slightly: why is it so difficult for you to grasp that other people may think differently about the Borg?

I have no difficulty in grasping the fact that you're attempting to suggest Picard was talking about something other than Starfleet casualties, despite it being abundantly obvious that is exactly what he was doing. He said it.

For the sake of simplification, Stofsk, you can ignore my entire reply by answering the following question:

Picard said, quote "Given our losses to the Borg and the Dominion, Starfleet feels we need all the allies we can get."

Question: What is Picard referring to, and why would he mention the Borg during this reference?

[Gandalf]

And seeings this point somehow mutated into what it is currently, when my original point was "how can a day-long battle compare to a two-year war" I have no idea what the hell you are on about.

Simple. Time frames are irrelevent. By your arguement, it would be unreasonable to suggest a ISD could destroy hundreds of Federation starships within a short time frame, because the Domnion did so only over a two year period. What matters is fleet deployment and preparation for upcoming battles. Since Starfleet by all accounts had significant warning time before the Borg incursion, there's no reason they could not have gathered a large scale fleet to intercept the Borg cube.

There's a big difference.

One Cube can only fire so many times per second. Compare that to thousands of Dominion ships.

Now look at the maximum few weeks the Cube could have been in Fed space by your figures. Compare that to the 2 years of the Dominion War.

[Stofsk]

For the sake of simplification, Stofsk, you can ignore my entire reply by answering the following question:

Picard said, quote "Given our losses to the Borg and the Dominion, Starfleet feels we need all the allies we can get."

Question: What is Picard referring to, and why would he mention the Borg during this reference?

Given the above question and it's context, simply put, Starfleet feels it needs allies.

The Borg cost starfleet ships. Never disputed that.

The Dominion War cost starfleet ships. AND territory. AND damage to infrastructure. AND invasions of at least one core world like Betazed. AND did direct damage to Earth, thanks to that Breen assault.

So, based on context, starfleet and the Federation has weathered two major storms, and gotten out of it bruised, but alive. That is all. Speculation on fleet losses etc are just that: speculation. Except we have numerous references from DS9 about the losses suffered during the Dominion War, damage to fleet strength, loss of infrastructure and lives, while the Borg attack seemed to do nothing except destroy ships (with the lives lost being solely military soldiers). How you can go from that scrap of dialogue and say "The Borg assault may have been 'dominate'." I frankly don't agree with.

If we are truly arguing over the interpretation over a scrap of dialogue then to be frank what's the point? You have your opinion, I have mine. Nothing is going to change that, unless new evidence is entered into this discussion.

[Akira]

Try this example.

The USN has 12 carriers. Assume A wiped out one CVN (Borg attack), B wipes out 6 CVNs (Dominion war). Both warrant mention as significant losses.

[Robert Walper]

Try this example.

The USN has 12 carriers. Assume A wiped out one CVN (Borg attack), B wipes out 6 CVNs (Dominion war). Both warrant mention as significant losses.

Which would put the Borg assault in perspective. The Dominion had years to inflict damage upon Starfleet, while the cube only had several days, or perhaps only hours. And yet when specifically mentioning Starfleet's casualties, Picard would bring up the Borg. This implies the Borg must have done a very significant level of damage, even when compared to the entire Dominion war.

[Robert Walper]

For the sake of simplification, Stofsk, you can ignore my entire reply by answering the following question:

Picard said, quote "Given our losses to the Borg and the Dominion, Starfleet feels we need all the allies we can get."

Question: What is Picard referring to, and why would he mention the Borg during this reference?

Given the above question and it's context, simply put, Starfleet feels it needs allies.

I asked what he was referring to, not what he trying to say. He's obviously saying Starfleet needs allies, but he's referring to Starfleet losses. We know the Dominion inflicted massive losses on the Federation. If the Borg did not do the same, why mention them when you are talking about losses in the first place?

The Borg cost starfleet ships. Never disputed that.

The Dominion War cost starfleet ships. AND territory. AND damage to infrastructure. AND invasions of at least one core world like Betazed. AND did direct damage to Earth, thanks to that Breen assault.

I submit this as a misunderstanding, since I was talking about nothing but starship losses.

So, based on context, starfleet and the Federation has weathered two major storms, and gotten out of it bruised, but alive. hat is all. Speculation on fleet losses etc are just that: speculation. Except we have numerous references from DS9 about the losses suffered during the Dominion War, damage to fleet strength, loss of infrastructure and lives, while the Borg attack seemed to do nothing except destroy ships (with the lives lost being solely military soldiers). How you can go from that scrap of dialogue and say "The Borg assault may have been 'dominate'." I frankly don't agree with.

I submitted that as a possbility. Whether or not it is a strong possiblity is not the point. Frankly, I wouldn't argue too heavily for it in the first place. And my suggested possiblity of the Borg assault being the dominate casualty list was in reference solely to starship losses, not loss of territory, infrastructure or even lives.

If we are truly arguing over the interpretation over a scrap of dialogue then to be frank what's the point? You have your opinion, I have mine. Nothing is going to change that, unless new evidence is entered into this discussion.

But surely you must realize the signifcance of Picard talking specifically about Starfleet losses and mentioning the Borg and Dominion in the same sentence. This makes no sense whatsoever if the Borg inflicted insignificant starship casualties compared to the Dominion war. To further my point, use your own perspective. The Borg apparently did little or nothing in the way of damage to existing Federation territory or infrastructure. That would leave little else they could have affected on a grand scale other than starships and lives. Thus, I consider it a safe bet to say the Borg inflicted heavy starship losses. There can be no other reason Picard mentioned the Borg in the first place, becaue he was specifically referring to casualties.

[Sharp-kun]

We know the Dominion inflicted massive losses on the Federation. If the Borg did not do the same, why mention them when you are talking about losses in the first place?

Because he has a personal connection to the Borg? Also perhaps because they are the next biggest source of losses after the Dominion. That does not however mean that they are anywhere near comparable.

[Jon]

Robert, That's a good point- I certainly believe, even lacking canon evidence- that the Borg did not traverse Federation space in a few hours and then take on the few ships it did at 001- it seems much more plausible to me thst this battle took place at various locations involving LOTS of ships. Are there any canon references to the length of the battle at 359 for instance? On screen we really only see the aftermath, afaik- both from BOBW and Emissary.

If the Borg did not do the same, why mention them when you are talking about losses in the first place?

How often, these couple of years after 9/11 do you hear 'what happened in New York and Washington on that day...' in the same breath? I really have noticed that when referring back to then, people (i.e - the media) seem to forget the pentagon was also attacked- because in all truth, compared to what happened in New York, it was 'insignificant' (in the public response)- but then I think a Military Leader or a high up General might mention both in the same breath. Bah, my point is, it works both ways- Picrad refers to both the large and 'insignificant' events because they both incurred losses at similar times and we're significant events that impacted the nation/federation.

[Robert Walper]

Robert, That's a good point- I certainly believe, even lacking canon evidence- that the Borg did not traverse Federation space in a few hours and then take on the few ships it did at 001- it seems much more plausible to me thst this battle took place at various locations involving LOTS of ships.

Well, it would be irrefuteable that the battle between the Borg cube and Federation forces took place at more than one location. The Typhoon sector for one(this is where we hear Federation forces apparently being obliterated and heavily damaged very quickly), and Sector 001, near Earth orbit(where we witness Federation forces being obliterated and heavily damaged quickly).

Let's not forget, the Defiant was stationed at DS9, a location(if I'm not mistaken), a pretty long distant from Earth. And yet the Defiant was present at the initial battle, and at the battle in Sector 001, although virtually incapacitated at that point. This suggests alot of warning time, or at least enough for the warship Defiant to travel all the way from DS9 to the engagement areas.

Are there any canon references to the length of the battle at 359 for instance?

None other than possibly some extraploation based upon how quickly the cube was dusting Federation ships, and knowing only forty took place in the battle. But I submit others here would call that shaky "evidence".

On screen we really only see the aftermath, afaik- both from BOBW and Emissary.

If the Borg did not do the same, why mention them when you are talking about losses in the first place?

How often, these couple of years after 9/11 do you hear 'what happened in New York and Washington on that day...' in the same breath? I really have noticed that when referring back to then, people (i.e - the media) seem to forget the pentagon was also attacked- because in all truth, compared to what happened in New York, it was 'insignificant' (in the public response)- but then I think a Military Leader or a high up General might mention both in the same breath. Bah, my point is, it works both ways- Picrad refers to both the large and 'insignificant' events because they both incurred losses at similar times and we're significant events that impacted the nation/federation.

I'm extremely hard pressed to belief a war era Starfleet would only muster only a "minor" fleet of Federation starships to stop what they know is a massive threat that will not stop until it reaches Earth and decimates the local population(and won't be stopping only at Earth either). This is furthermore hard to believe when one admits the Defiant was stationed at DS9(a remote outpost on the frontier of Federation space), and yet was present at both the initial engagement and the battle in Sector 001. Clearly, Starfleet had so much warning time a Federation warship stationed at DS9 could reach the initial battle zone and Sector 001. The fact the Federation would even call back the Defiant from the war zone suggests just how many forces they were willing to muster against the cube.

I daresay the Federation would place the Borg incursion at a much higher threat level than even the Dominion, especially if the Klingons and Romulans could keep them somewhat busy. According to Picard's log, the Borg are the Federation's "most lethal enemy", and "this time there may be no stopping them". Hardly words I'd submit supporting a viewpoint of the Borg cube capable only of inflicting "minor" losses relative to the Dominion war.

[Robert Walper]

We know the Dominion inflicted massive losses on the Federation. If the Borg did not do the same, why mention them when you are talking about losses in the first place?

Because he has a personal connection to the Borg?

So you submit Picard would exaggarate the Borg damage simply because he has a personal history with them? Sorry, I chose to take his statement at face value rather than try to suggest he's exaggerating or lying.

Also perhaps because they are the next biggest source of losses after the Dominion.

Possibly, but I'm interested on how you can assert the Dominion losses are greater than the Borg inflicted ones in the first place. Dominion losses are known, Borg ones are not. Therefore the ratio between them both is not determined.

That does not however mean that they are anywhere near comparable.

One cannot assert they are comparable, but evidence suggests the Borg inflicted heavy losses. Picard's statement, multiple battle locations, even remote outposts like DS9 in war zones sending their primary warship to the fight, etc, etc.

[Stark]

If you assume the Borg made a beeline for Earth without detours, and that SF knew they'd do this, then isn't it likely that upon detecting the Borg ship inbound, SF 'bunched' its spread-out forces near the corridor the cube would pass through into a series of groups intended to engage the cube as it passed? From the BoBW precedent, the cube can be expected to stop and destroy each group, but if there wasn't much warning, the fleet at Typhon could simply be the ships that were in the area, and not a particularly strong force.

Thus, regardless of how long it took the Borg to make it to Earth, it seems unlikely that it was being enaged 24/7, instead of a series of isolated, and likely brief encounters with assembled local forces, Wolf 359 style.