Phaser rifle ammunition capacity

[Ted C]

Checking my math, if the phaser's total energy capacity was 52.5 MJ, then if that were released in a single blast, that would be equivalent to 33 pounds of TNT?

33 pounds, 13 kilograms... basically the same thing.

If the battery is full, a type III rifle can make a pretty big kaboom.

A hand phaser is probably only about a tenth of that, if the charge in a Federation hand phaser is similar to the charge in a Cardassian hand phaser (4.7 MJ according to Kira in DS9 "Return to Grace").

[Robert Walper]

Checking my math, if the phaser's total energy capacity was 52.5 MJ, then if that were released in a single blast, that would be equivalent to 33 pounds of TNT?

33 pounds, 13 kilograms... basically the same thing.

If the battery is full, a type III rifle can make a pretty big kaboom.

Would 13 kilograms of TNT be sufficient to "level" a decent sized building?

A hand phaser is probably only about a tenth of that, if the charge in a Federation hand phaser is similar to the charge in a Cardassian hand phaser (4.7 MJ according to Kira in DS9 "Return to Grace").

Is this 52.5 MJ energy capacity a lower or upper limit? I interpretated your reference as a lower limit as opposed to a upper one.

[Darth Wong]

Would 13 kilograms of TNT be sufficient to "level" a decent sized building?

Would there be an example in Star Trek of a hand phaser performing this feat?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Would 13 kilograms of TNT be sufficient to "level" a decent sized building?

Would there be an example in Star Trek of a hand phaser performing this feat?

Nothing besides comments from various crew members. And the episode with Rogar Danar doesn't support this.

[Robert Walper]

Would 13 kilograms of TNT be sufficient to "level" a decent sized building?

Would there be an example in Star Trek of a hand phaser performing this feat?

How is your question relevent, Mike? I asked if 13 kilograms of TNT is sufficient to level a building. I was not asserting or suggesting a hand phaser has ever been observed doing so.

[Ted C]

Is this 52.5 MJ energy capacity a lower or upper limit? I interpretated your reference as a lower limit as opposed to a upper one.

Assuming that the power supply was draining at a rate of 1.05 MW for at least 50 seconds, the 52.5 MJ capacity is a lower limit.

[Robert Walper]

Is this 52.5 MJ energy capacity a lower or upper limit? I interpretated your reference as a lower limit as opposed to a upper one.

Assuming that the power supply was draining at a rate of 1.05 MW for at least 50 seconds, the 52.5 MJ capacity is a lower limit.

As I suspected. So the phaser's total energy capacity could be much larger.

[Ted C]

Would 13 kilograms of TNT be sufficient to "level" a decent sized building?

In this situation, no. 13 kg of TNT might bring down a good sized building if you carefully placed charges around the building's main supports, but a 13 kg bomb going off at some random place inside probably wouldn't be enough.

[Ted C]

Assuming that the power supply was draining at a rate of 1.05 MW for at least 50 seconds, the 52.5 MJ capacity is a lower limit.

It could be much higher, but there's no reason to think it would be. It's already got more than ten times the capacity of a pistol that uses comparable technology, so it doesn't seem practical to give it much more than that.

[Robert Walper]

Assuming that the power supply was draining at a rate of 1.05 MW for at least 50 seconds, the 52.5 MJ capacity is a lower limit.

It could be much higher, but there's no reason to think it would be. It's already got more than ten times the capacity of a pistol that uses comparable technology, so it doesn't seem practical to give it much more than that.

*shrugs* I wasn't suggesting such was needed. Merely establishing for the record that this is a lower limit. Therefore implications(ie: possible dialogue) that phasers may be capable of greater effects doesn't need to be dismissed offhand.

[Darth Servo]

According to him, the phaser rifle that Geordi and Data were testing in "The Mind's Eye" fired continously for 50 seconds, draining its battery at a rate of 1.05 MW. This would give it's battery a capacity of 52.5 MJ.

I can't seem to access the webpage of suckdom. How did the Rabid Stupid Asshole determine that it lasted for 50 seconds? Time the scene? Were Geordi and Data shooting the bull for that much time? Did they state later that it lasted for 50 seconds? I can't imagine a scene taking that long, just watching the beam fire. Would be extremely dull, even by Trek standards.

[Chris OFarrell]

According to him, the phaser rifle that Geordi and Data were testing in "The Mind's Eye" fired continously for 50 seconds, draining its battery at a rate of 1.05 MW. This would give it's battery a capacity of 52.5 MJ.

I can't seem to access the webpage of suckdom. How did the Rabid Stupid Asshole determine that it lasted for 50 seconds? Time the scene? Were Geordi and Data shooting the bull for that much time? Did they state later that it lasted for 50 seconds? I can't imagine a scene taking that long, just watching the beam fire. Would be extremely dull, even by Trek standards.

From what I remember of the episode, they started the beam shooting, then ran a heep of tests of the beam and weapon, eventualy discoering that it was in fact a Romulan fabrication of a Federation rifle. Utterly perfect except that its efficency was somewhat higher then a Federation weapon

[Darth Wong]

Would 13 kilograms of TNT be sufficient to "level" a decent sized building?

Would there be an example in Star Trek of a hand phaser performing this feat?

How is your question relevent, Mike? I asked if 13 kilograms of TNT is sufficient to level a building. I was not asserting or suggesting a hand phaser has ever been observed doing so.

It's relevant because the dialogue of the scene is internally inconsistent. Given the power output and the efficiency rating, one or the other must be wrong because at face value, Geordi should be getting burned by his proximity to a 150kW heater. Therefore, the existence (or lack thereof) of corroborating incidents to shore up the higher-powered interpretation matters quite a bit.

[Lancer]

Would there be an example in Star Trek of a hand phaser performing this feat?

How is your question relevent, Mike? I asked if 13 kilograms of TNT is sufficient to level a building. I was not asserting or suggesting a hand phaser has ever been observed doing so.

It's relevant because the dialogue of the scene is internally inconsistent. Given the power output and the efficiency rating, one or the other must be wrong because at face value, Geordi should be getting burned by his proximity to a 150kW heater. Therefore, the existence (or lack thereof) of corroborating incidents to shore up the higher-powered interpretation matters quite a bit.

What does the efficency rating measure specifically here? Is it a explicit measure of energy lost to heat, or is it a measure of overall lost energy?. Energy doesn't always have to be lost as heat, especially when you get into a weapon that can cause disruption or explosive displacement w/o changing ambient temperature any.

[Ted C]

I can't seem to access the webpage of suckdom. How did the Rabid Stupid Asshole determine that it lasted for 50 seconds?

RSA cites Graham Kennedy's site as his source.

Here's the entire reference that he's using...

In this episode Data and Geordi test a Romulan copy of a Type III phaser rifle. We get the following dialogue.

[The weapon commences firing]

Data : "Energy flow is within normal parameters. From the prefire chamber to the emission aperture."

LaForge : "Rapid nadion pulse, right on target. Beam control assembly, safety interlock, both check out. Beam width intensity controls also responding correctly."

Data : "Energy cell useage remains constant at 1.05 megajoules per second. Curious… the efficiency reading on the discharge crystal is well above Starfleet specifications."

LaForge : "Yeah, by quite a bit.

[The weapon ceases firing : total firing duration 34 seconds]

LaForge : "94.1% efficiency."

Data : "Our most efficient discharge crystal typically fires with 86.5% efficiency."

LaForge : "Hm. Lets take a closer look at the wave pattern on the emission beam. That might tell us why its losing so little energy."

[The weapon commences firing]

Data : “Pulse frequency on the prefire chamber reads steady.”

LaForge : "There. That’s not right… the initial output spike is inverted."

Data : "That might suggest the weapon has been charged with a forced pulse. Well into the terahertz range."

[The weapon ceases firing : total firing duration 17 seconds]

LaForge : "Then it’s definitely not Starfleet issue. And there can’t be that many systems that use the terahertz speeds."

Data : "327 to our knowledge. We can probably achieve an exact match with a random computer search. It will take approximately 3 hours."

LaForge : "I believe we can narrow this down with a little common sense, Data. Who has the most to gain from a conflict between the Klingon Empire and the Federation?"

EDIT: On a fairly unrelated note, Kennedy naturally assumes that 1.05 MW is typical output for the type III phaser instead of high-end, despite the effect that 60-140 kW of waste energy would have on anyone standing near the weapon.

[Ted C]

Given the power output and the efficiency rating, one or the other must be wrong because at face value, Geordi should be getting burned by his proximity to a 150kW heater. Therefore, the existence (or lack thereof) of corroborating incidents to shore up the higher-powered interpretation matters quite a bit.

That, or the fixture holding the weapon in their experiment includes an active cooling system as you suggest in the canon database entry, and users can't actually fire the thing at 1.05 MW levels in the field.

[Ted C]

Egad! I didn't even notice this before.

LaForge : "Then it’s definitely not Starfleet issue. And there can’t be that many systems that use the terahertz speeds."

Data : "327 to our knowledge. We can probably achieve an exact match with a random computer search. It will take approximately 3 hours."

It would take their computer three hours to compare the wave form seen in their experiment to 327 other known waveforms and find a match? It takes a Federation starship's computer over thirty seconds to look at two waveforms and determine whether they're the same? I'm not an expert on computer performance, but that looks pretty damn poor to me.

[/tangent]

[Darth Wong]

What does the efficency rating measure specifically here? Is it a explicit measure of energy lost to heat, or is it a measure of overall lost energy?

And where does the lost energy go, if not entropy? Are you going to invoke the subspace excuse?

Energy doesn't always have to be lost as heat,

See above.

especially when you get into a weapon that can cause disruption or explosive displacement w/o changing ambient temperature any.

Funny how a stick of dynamite can explosively displace rocks too, but we don't automatically decide that it must be capable of violating the laws of thermodynamics. As for the magic vanishing effect, that would not be inefficiency, for the obvious reason that this is the intent of the weapon.

[Uraniun235]

Is it possible that most of the waste heat is being given off by the beam itself as it travels to the target, rather than at the emitter?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Or is it possible because of the exotic nature of phasers they don't bleed of as much waste heat as we think they should? Considering people have been in close proximity to others who've been vaporized and walked away unharmed.

[Ted C]

Is it possible that most of the waste heat is being given off by the beam itself as it travels to the target, rather than at the emitter?

In this case, the "discharge crystal" of the rifle is specifically identified as the point of energy loss (which means other components of the rifle may be -- indeed should be -- bleeding energy, as well).

[Lancer]

What does the efficency rating measure specifically here? Is it a explicit measure of energy lost to heat, or is it a measure of overall lost energy?

And where does the lost energy go, if not entropy? Are you going to invoke the subspace excuse?

Heat is only a part of entropy. Increased entropy is not always an increase in heat.

Now to the inefficency question here, could it be that not all of the generated nadions generated have enough energy to interact, and instead would self-disrupt (leaving behind the phaser "glow" that is associated with the NDE effect). That would also explain why the phaser beam emits light despite not interacting with anything in space.

Energy doesn't always have to be lost as heat,

See above.

especially when you get into a weapon that can cause disruption or explosive displacement w/o changing ambient temperature any.

Funny how a stick of dynamite can explosively displace rocks too, but we don't automatically decide that it must be capable of violating the laws of thermodynamics. As for the magic vanishing effect, that would not be inefficiency, for the obvious reason that this is the intent of the weapon.

A stick of dynamite doesn't make a large portion of that rock dissapear into thin air. The only way it could possibly do that is to vaporize that part of the rock, which clearly isn't happening since people can walk through (or even stand in the general viscinity of) the air in that area immediately afterward without getting major burns.

Phasers, on the otherhand, can make large portions of said rock to dissapear without doing any significant thermal effects (no superheating of the rock).

Now, people could argue that the rock in ST: Insurrection was hollow or was porous, but phasers are very non-reactive with air so a disrupt beam setting wouldn't work, and the heat setting were not used because of the negligible temperature change in the rock and surrounding air.

[Major Diarrhia]

In this case, the "discharge crystal" of the rifle is specifically identified as the point of energy loss (which means other components of the rifle may be -- indeed should be -- bleeding energy, as well).

If the discharge crystal is stated to be the point of inificiancy, why would the other parts not mentioned be so as well?

Could the inficiency be like that of laser which, IIRC, are 90% inificient because 90% of the photons created aren't of the right frequency, amplitude, direction, etc, so they instead just bounce around in the lasing medium?

[Ted C]

In this case, the "discharge crystal" of the rifle is specifically identified as the point of energy loss (which means other components of the rifle may be -- indeed should be -- bleeding energy, as well).

If the discharge crystal is stated to be the point of inificiancy, why would the other parts not mentioned be so as well?

Because this particular point of loss in the system was unusual; other parts of the system that were losing energy at normal rates would not be worth mentioning.

[ClaysGhost]

Could the inficiency be like that of laser which, IIRC, are 90% inificient because 90% of the photons created aren't of the right frequency, amplitude, direction, etc, so they instead just bounce around in the lasing medium?

Laser inefficiencies are highly variable depending on type. You can get some truly rotten efficiency figures for some of the argon ion lasers (<0.1%, if I remember correctly). Semiconductor lasers tend to have efficiencies more like 70%. Just from that spread you can see that the reason for energy loss is different in each type - your example sounds like what happens in lasers driven by sources like flash tubes (the flash tube generates a comparatively wide range of frequencies but only a narrow range causes stimulated emission).