ST Questions about ENT era

[Trogdor]

I don't think the Betazoids are humans. I'm pretty sure Betazed's been described at the Betazoid home world, and even if it hasn't been, I can't remember any time when humans were described as citizens of their world rather than just humans. Troi's mother's ramblings ( i.e. "I am heir to the holy rings of Betazed and holder of the sacred chalice of reeks!") always made me think that Betazoids had too distinct a culture to be just humans who'd colonized Betazed.

Also, Betazoids do have a unique trait besides the black eyes. Betazoid females quintuple their sex drive during middle age, something that human women (to the best of my knowledge, anyway) do not do.

As for the Ent continuity breaches, my bitches about this center around a few things: human/Romulan tech, T'pol's behavior, Klingon 1st contact, and the Xindi.
According to Spock, humans used lasers and nuclear warheads for weapons until after the First Romulan War, I think. The Ent uses photonic torpedoes, and the Romulans, who aren't supposed to have cloaks, do.

T'pol is full Vulcan, yet she's often seen performing emotional outbursts. Plus, the mind meld, which was supposed to come later, is used in Ent. There are probably other breaches I'm not aware of.

Picard clearly stated that the humans' first contact with Klingons was disasterous. In Ent, first contact isn't great, but it's hardly disasterous.

In a recent episode of Ent, some time traveller shows Archer the future, where a Fed fleet (complete with an Enterprise J) is fighting the guys who built that Xindi deathstar thing. He tells Archer that Xindi are serving aboard the E-J, which assumably means that the Xindi joined the Federation, probably shortly after the founding races made it. It's not really a continuity breach, but it's just dumb for them to create a race who's been with the Feds for a long time but was never seen or mentioned in the other series.

Another thing which irks me is the fact that Archer's ship is named Enterprise. I suppose it's not a continuity breach, seeing as how Archer's Ent is NX-01, not NCC-1701, but I'd always thought of Kirk's as the first Ent in Starfleet.

[Major Diarrhia]

Just because they look the same and can breed doesn't mean they are the same species. <rest of message snipped>

I don't even need to respond to the rest. Just refer to the bolded section. I hope you understand what you just said there.

I know exactly what I wrote and in Trek it's true. It certainly doesn't invalidate the rest of my argument either.

Even taking "The Chase" into account, the nearest common ancestor would be 3 billion year old DNA.

In Trek that is supposed to be the reason why almost all aliens are humaniod. Has there ever been a time where humaniod aliens haven't been able to produce a child?

Perhaps Betazoid is the name of the colony or planet and it was founded by telepathic humans?

I'm pretty sure she's been refered to as a human/Betazed hybrid. I don't know what episode to look at though, maybe someone knows. If not that there must have been instances of, "She's not human, she's part Betazed". Something like that, maybe in First Contact. Tasha Yar wasn't born on Earth but no one ever called her a [where ever she is from]ian.

[Lancer]

I don't even need to respond to the rest. Just refer to the bolded section. I hope you understand what you just said there.

ok, let me take a shot. If you have a peach tree and a plum tree, they look about the same and can breed to produce peach/plum hybrids (I know this from experience because my friend has a peach/plum tree graft, and it's made peach/plums for a while now). Does that mean despite some minor cosmetic differences (one makes peaches and another makes plums), they are the same species?

No, it doesn't. Horses and donkeys can crossbreed, too. There's a critical difference here, though: horses and donkeys, peach and plum trees, share a common ancestor in the near past. If humans and Betazeds actually evolved on different planets, then the horse has a better shot of breeding with the plum tree than humans and Betazeds do. Even taking "The Chase" into account, the nearest common ancestor would be 3 billion year old DNA.

Sorry, bad analogy. However, with the common ancestry thing, the 3-billion year old DNA you mention was deliberately "seeded" to favor humanoid life. Parallel evolution did the rest of the work.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Personally, I think it would have been better if they hadn't made "The Chase" and just ignored the issue like every other damn sci-fi property out there does.

[Gil Hamilton]

Sorry, bad analogy. However, with the common ancestry thing, the 3-billion year old DNA you mention was deliberately "seeded" to favor humanoid life. Parallel evolution did the rest of the work.

How do you seed DNA so it deliberately favors humanoids. Evolution doesn't work that way. After 3 billion years, those pieces of seeded DNA shouldn't look anything like each other. After all, me and a cabbage have a common ancestor a significantly shorter time ago than 3 billion years, and we can't exactly have little cabbage babies, now can we? Hell, chimpanzees and men had a common ancestor that lived less than 10 million years ago, and humans and chimps can't fertilize enough other at all. Yet you think that parallel evolution will happen for three billion years and will result in aliens which can all make happy children together. That's beyond nutty.

I know exactly what I wrote and in Trek it's true. It certainly doesn't invalidate the rest of my argument either.

Do you know what you wrote? It doesn't sound like it. Any two lifeforms that reproduce sexually and produce fertile offspring (IE not mules) are of the same species. This isn't even a matter of major wiggle room here. Betazoids don't even have any major biological or structural difference. They've got all the same parts as humans do. Black pupils would be unusual for a human, but not alien, it's completely cosmetic. Your "argument" that they are different species is bunk and likely the result of you not knowing what a "species" is.

[Lancer]

Sorry, bad analogy. However, with the common ancestry thing, the 3-billion year old DNA you mention was deliberately "seeded" to favor humanoid life. Parallel evolution did the rest of the work.

How do you seed DNA so it deliberately favors humanoids. Evolution doesn't work that way. After 3 billion years, those pieces of seeded DNA shouldn't look anything like each other. After all, me and a cabbage have a common ancestor a significantly shorter time ago than 3 billion years, and we can't exactly have little cabbage babies, now can we? Hell, chimpanzees and men had a common ancestor that lived less than 10 million years ago, and humans and chimps can't fertilize enough other at all. Yet you think that parallel evolution will happen for three billion years and will result in aliens which can all make happy children together. That's beyond nutty.

Hey, it's ST. All the different DNA seeds were intact enough that 3 billion years later, Piccard could combine samples of DNA from different species and find an embedded message from the Progenitors. Call that nutty, call that blatantly ignoring the principals of science, but it's still canon.

I know exactly what I wrote and in Trek it's true. It certainly doesn't invalidate the rest of my argument either.

Do you know what you wrote? It doesn't sound like it. Any two lifeforms that reproduce sexually and produce fertile offspring (IE not mules) are of the same species. This isn't even a matter of major wiggle room here. Betazoids don't even have any major biological or structural difference. They've got all the same parts as humans do. Black pupils would be unusual for a human, but not alien, it's completely cosmetic. Your "argument" that they are different species is bunk and likely the result of you not knowing what a "species" is.

Do you realize that with that argument, you effectively stated that Humans and Klingons are the same species, Humans and Vulcans are the same species, and by the associative proterty, Vulcans and Klingons are the same species? Despite all three races evolving independently of eachother on different planets?

[Major Diarrhia]

Sorry, bad analogy. However, with the common ancestry thing, the 3-billion year old DNA you mention was deliberately "seeded" to favor humanoid life. Parallel evolution did the rest of the work.

How do you seed DNA so it deliberately favors humanoids. Evolution doesn't work that way. After 3 billion years, those pieces of seeded DNA shouldn't look anything like each other. After all, me and a cabbage have a common ancestor a significantly shorter time ago than 3 billion years, and we can't exactly have little cabbage babies, now can we? Hell, chimpanzees and men had a common ancestor that lived less than 10 million years ago, and humans and chimps can't fertilize enough other at all. Yet you think that parallel evolution will happen for three billion years and will result in aliens which can all make happy children together. That's beyond nutty.

I know exactly what I wrote and in Trek it's true. It certainly doesn't invalidate the rest of my argument either.

Do you know what you wrote? It doesn't sound like it. Any two lifeforms that reproduce sexually and produce fertile offspring (IE not mules) are of the same species. This isn't even a matter of major wiggle room here. Betazoids don't even have any major biological or structural difference. They've got all the same parts as humans do. Black pupils would be unusual for a human, but not alien, it's completely cosmetic. Your "argument" that they are different species is bunk and likely the result of you not knowing what a "species" is.

Fine, then by your own defination, all humaniod aliens in Trek are of the same species since they can all interbreed and create off spring.

[Gil Hamilton]

Fine, then by your own defination, all humaniod aliens in Trek are of the same species since they can all interbreed and create off spring.

No, it's not my definition, it's biology's definition. That's what a species is.

[Stofsk]

Perhaps Betazoid is the name of the colony or planet and it was founded by telepathic humans?

I'm pretty sure she's been refered to as a human/Betazed hybrid. I don't know what episode to look at though, maybe someone knows. If not that there must have been instances of, "She's not human, she's part Betazed". Something like that, maybe in First Contact.

Yes, but there's no difference between humans and Betazoids other than telepathic abilities in the latter. Given that humans have shown esper and TP abilities in the past (TOS), and now we've got "human-looking" telepaths in the present (TNG), I don't see how it can be that difficult to view it as a 2+2=4 solution. The Betazoids might consider other humans to be different to them, the same way how in B5 "tepes" considered "mundanes" different from them, inspite of the fact they're the one species.

Tasha ar wasn't born on Earth but no one ever called her a [where ever she is from]ian.

Of course not. She was called human, yes. Where she was from was nothing special, other than rape-gangs prowling the streets looking for her (one of her nightmare recollections). Would you like to be reminded where you're from, if that place happened to be a hellhole? Tasha Yar herself may have considered herself a human rather than a Turkanan Colonial.

Think about it: say we colonise mars. Are the colonists martians? Or are they humans? They're both. If mars becomes a nation-state under it's own governance then they'll consider themselves both, but they won't consider themselves "earthers." Why should Tasha consider herself an "earther?" Why should anyone else who wasn't born on earth?

[Metrion Cascade]

Betazoid pregnancies are ten months. And the question: How similar would the two races have to be (and in what ways) in order to be classified as one species? I guess that if you can show that the Betazoid population came from a human one that would answer it.

[Metrion Cascade]

Here some images of betazoids. All examples of pure Betazoids we see in Trek (as far as I know/remember) have black eyes.

Lwaxana:

One
Two
Three

Ensign Suder:

One
Two
Three

Stadi (Voyager helmsman)
One
Two

Tam Elbrun
One

From a distance, my dark brown eyes look perfectly black. Twenty bucks says you can find a human whose eyes looked completely black in Trek too.

[Metrion Cascade]

Can anyone help me answer some of these questions?

1) Are Trills founding members of the Federation? Were they around in ENT's time, and contribute to the founding of the Federation?

No. Jadzia Dax hid her spots when visiting the E-nil.

[Lancer]

Here some images of betazoids. All examples of pure Betazoids we see in Trek (as far as I know/remember) have black eyes.

Lwaxana:

One
Two
Three

Ensign Suder:

One
Two
Three

Stadi (Voyager helmsman)
One
Two

Tam Elbrun
One

From a distance, my dark brown eyes look perfectly black. Twenty bucks says you can find a human whose eyes looked completely black in Trek too.

big distinction is that Betazoid eyes are pure black up close as well.

[Gil Hamilton]

Betazoid pregnancies are ten months. And the question: How similar would the two races have to be (and in what ways) in order to be classified as one species? I guess that if you can show that the Betazoid population came from a human one that would answer it.

Ten months is unusually long for a human, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

Personally, from all evidence given, Betazoids are gene-modded humans. It wouldn't be the first time that humans have left Earth because it sucked. It happened all the time in TNG, due to the chaos of the 21st and 22nd century (which coincidently doesn't exist anymore, thanks to Enterprise). Thanks to Khan and his groups Eugenics War, people who did genemodding on themselves wouldn't exactly be welcome on Earth, so I think that the original Betazoids hopped on one of the Botany Bay-like ships that Earth seems to have lying around despite the worlds infrastructure being destroy and left the system. This makes their proximity to Earth make better sense along with the fact that they are virtually identical to humans, except with a few cosmetic differences like the black pupils and the queen of all ticking biological clocks.

[General Zod]

Taken from Star Trek.com

after doing some digging, the main website says that betazoids are indeed a separate race. and it seems the pure black eyes are indeed a betazoid trait.

Betazoids
Episode: Haven


Planet: Betazed

A Federation race basically humanoid except for the solid-colored dark pupils and mental power of telepathy within the race. They also have varying empathic links to other races.

Their empathic/telepathic contact leads to a natural trait of complete honesty, somewhat troubling to outworlders when practiced fully. The telepathy is not inborn but almost always comes on with adolescence. There are also cases of over-empathic abilities, and those who suffer from such extremes must be counseled and trained to avoid insanity, but are almost always affected throughout their life.

Betazoids are actually uncomfortable around those, like the Ferengi and Breen, whose minds they cannot read. Similarly, the minds of animals can be a bit frightening to them, and they tend to prefer smaller animals. Their mind contains the paracortex, their telepathic lobe, which is highly capable of recovery from injury, and includes the "metaconsciousness," or a trauma filter. Psilosynine is the neurotransmitter involved. In addition, their REM sleep frequency is different than for most humanoids.

Betazoids practice an old style of marriage arrangement called genetic bonding, wherein children are promised to each other for marriage later by their parents. On the same note, Betazoids are known for their ability to love more than one person without losing their ability to love their mate, nor are they bound by their marriage customs. Because marriage is a celebration of the act of love to Betazoids, the wedding ceremony itself is traditionally conducted in the nude.

Childbearing is similar to humans, except the normal gestation rate for Betazoid females is ten months rather than nine. Betazoid women are not considered to be "matured" until they at least reach their forties in equivalent human years, which coincides with the timing of the female Betazoid "Phase."

[RedImperator]

I would be much more willing to consider the Betazeds a separate species, rather than a subspecies or race of Homo sapiens if they'd appeared in TOS, where there were several species outwardly identical to humans save for a minor cosmetic differences (not even that, in some cases). However, TNG made a conscious effort to distinguish aliens physically from humans, even if it was just a bumpy forehead, but did not for Betazeds (and it's not as if slapping a prosthetic forehead on Marina Sirtis would have been a huge deal, considering the makeup jobs Michael Dorn and Brent Spiner were getting).

[Illuminatus Primus]

Regardless of what they say, they can breed; therefore they are of the same species. Canon, however stupid, doesn't change the meaning of words in English nor the laws of physics, hence why ST analysis has often ended with "so-and-so character is a moron."

By Suspension of Disbelief, when we refer to a species, almost all of the Trek races would fit within a single one. Perhaps there is a "Trek species" with a more exclusive definition than we have, but that doesn't really make any difference to analysis.

[RedImperator]

Hence my theory that someone seeded the galaxy with hominids long enough ago that divergent evolution could produce significant variations but not long enough ago to produce actual different species. It could even be possible that the races we see in Trek were actually deliberately bred for some reason (since some variations, like the Trills, would be unlikely to evolve in such a short period of time).

[General Zod]

Hence my theory that someone seeded the galaxy with hominids long enough ago that divergent evolution could produce significant variations but not long enough ago to produce actual different species. It could even be possible that the races we see in Trek were actually deliberately bred for some reason (since some variations, like the Trills, would be unlikely to evolve in such a short period of time).

one storyline of TNG actually stated that there was a race of beings that seeded the galaxy long ago with their own DNA.

[RedImperator]

Hence my theory that someone seeded the galaxy with hominids long enough ago that divergent evolution could produce significant variations but not long enough ago to produce actual different species. It could even be possible that the races we see in Trek were actually deliberately bred for some reason (since some variations, like the Trills, would be unlikely to evolve in such a short period of time).

one storyline of TNG actually stated that there was a race of beings that seeded the galaxy long ago with their own DNA.

I'm aware of that, and it still doesn't explain why everyone in the ST galaxy is humanoid and interfertile. 3 billion years is a long time for divergent evolution to work its magic--the entire Kingdom Anamalia is younger than 3 billion years old, and last I checked, humans and jellyfish aren't capable of producing viable offspring together.

"The Chase" was based on the stupid Trek brainbug that evolution is somehow predetermined. Aliens seeding the galaxy with their DNA 3 billion years ago might explain why nearly all life in Trek is CHEMICALLY alike, but it doesn't explain why humans and Vulcans, who supposedly evolved on different planets, can interbreed.

[Sidious]

From a distance, my dark brown eyes look perfectly black. Twenty bucks says you can find a human whose eyes looked completely black in Trek too.

Your saying that the eyes in this shot are brown??

Taken from Star Trek.com

after doing some digging, the main website says that betazoids are indeed a separate race. and it seems the pure black eyes are indeed a betazoid trait.

Ah thank you, I searched that site up and down and coudltn find info like that concerning Betazoids!

[Trogdor]

Regardless of what they say, they can breed; therefore they are of the same species. Canon, however stupid, doesn't change the meaning of words in English nor the laws of physics, hence why ST analysis has often ended with "so-and-so character is a moron."

*snip*

Humans have successfully had children with Klingons and Romulans in Trek (Worf's girlfriend Kaylar was half human half Klingon, and Cmdr. Sela was a human/Romulan cross). They certainly aren't the same species as humans. Besides, if what I remember from my biology class is true, two beings only have to have the same genus to successfully produce offspring, not the same species.

[RedImperator]

Regardless of what they say, they can breed; therefore they are of the same species. Canon, however stupid, doesn't change the meaning of words in English nor the laws of physics, hence why ST analysis has often ended with "so-and-so character is a moron."

*snip*

Humans have successfully had children with Klingons and Romulans in Trek (Worf's girlfriend Kaylar was half human half Klingon, and Cmdr. Sela was a human/Romulan cross). They certainly aren't the same species as humans.

Emphasis mine. You realize you just contradicted yourself right?

Besides, if what I remember from my biology class is true, two beings only have to have the same genus to successfully produce offspring, not the same species.

They need to be the same species to successfully produce fertile offpsring. Worf's mate (mother of his son Alexander) was half human. Ergo, humans and Klingons are the same species, cosmetic differences aside.

And at any rate, the same genus evolving independently on hundreds of different worlds is hardly less astonishing than the same species.

[Gil Hamilton]

It's down right astonishing that most of the aliens in StarTrek are all humanoid with all the same basic and not-so-basic features. I mean, the aliens in StarTrek look like a costume party, not a beings that evolved on different worlds.

[Lancer]

Regardless of what they say, they can breed; therefore they are of the same species. Canon, however stupid, doesn't change the meaning of words in English nor the laws of physics, hence why ST analysis has often ended with "so-and-so character is a moron."

*snip*

Humans have successfully had children with Klingons and Romulans in Trek (Worf's girlfriend Kaylar was half human half Klingon, and Cmdr. Sela was a human/Romulan cross). They certainly aren't the same species as humans.

Emphasis mine. You realize you just contradicted yourself right?

Besides, if what I remember from my biology class is true, two beings only have to have the same genus to successfully produce offspring, not the same species.

They need to be the same species to successfully produce fertile offpsring. Worf's mate (mother of his son Alexander) was half human. Ergo, humans and Klingons are the same species, cosmetic differences aside.

And at any rate, the same genus evolving independently on hundreds of different worlds is hardly less astonishing than the same species.

I was under the impression that being the same species and genus required there to be more than just "they make fertile offspring". However, I'm just a high-school student planning on going into comp-engineering and physics, so I'm pretty out of my element here.