Proton torpedoes make stars go boom?

[General Zod]

This makes no sense. Warp cores bleed trilithium, and if the substance was really as volatile as you make it out to be, warp cores would be exploding a lot more frequently. Unless, of course, the Federation has a way to stabilize and contain trilithium, which would be a requirement for proper operation of the core. If they had such a containment method, according to you, they (or anyone else with warp technology) could make a trilithium torpedo.

it could simply be that though it was volatile, it wasn't volatile enough on its own to take out a sun. perhaps soren's research simply found a way to refine it and make it powerful enough to do so? like refining uranium to the point where it's weapons grade?

[Darth Wong]

This makes no sense. Warp cores bleed trilithium, and if the substance was really as volatile as you make it out to be, warp cores would be exploding a lot more frequently. Unless, of course, the Federation has a way to stabilize and contain trilithium, which would be a requirement for proper operation of the core. If they had such a containment method, according to you, they (or anyone else with warp technology) could make a trilithium torpedo.

it could simply be that though it was volatile, it wasn't volatile enough on its own to take out a sun. perhaps soren's research simply found a way to refine it and make it powerful enough to do so? like refining uranium to the point where it's weapons grade?

Humanity had the ability to mine uranium out of the ground thousands of years before we developed the ability to make it into weapons-grade material. Think about it.

[Durandal]

This makes no sense. Warp cores bleed trilithium, and if the substance was really as volatile as you make it out to be, warp cores would be exploding a lot more frequently. Unless, of course, the Federation has a way to stabilize and contain trilithium, which would be a requirement for proper operation of the core. If they had such a containment method, according to you, they (or anyone else with warp technology) could make a trilithium torpedo.

it could simply be that though it was volatile, it wasn't volatile enough on its own to take out a sun. perhaps soren's research simply found a way to refine it and make it powerful enough to do so? like refining uranium to the point where it's weapons grade?

Whatever it is, it's clear that Soren's research was required for it to take out a star, contrary to what Metrion Cascade is claiming.

[The Kernel]

Whatever it is, it's clear that Soren's research was required for it to take out a star, contrary to what Metrion Cascade is claiming.

She's already conceeded the whole argument. She said that Klingon's do not have access to nova weapons, yet Trilithium is fairly common as a biproduct of warp engines.

Also, let's consider that Worf said in Generations that Trilithium could be used as a solar inhibitor, but the Romulans had never found a way to make it stable. This suggests that without Soren's research, the Trilithium weapon would have been useless (which Soren himself said to L&B).

[Metrion Cascade]

Oh really? And you know this ... how?

The burden of proof isn't on me. You're proposing something more complex than what we saw in TNG "Starship Mine" (improper containment=boom) I'll wait for you to demonstrate how you know that and what you think the more complex mechanism is.

An experimental compound the Romulans have been working on. In theory, a
trilithium-based explosive would be thousands of times more powerful
than an anti-matter weapon. But they never found a way to stabilize it.

Without my research, the trilithium is worthless, as are your plans to
reconquer the Klingon Empire.

The burden of proof is on you.
Prove that trilithium without Sorans research can destroy a sun.

He's pulling L&B's legs. Trilithium in a Founder's bomb (the Founder posed as Bashir, IIRC) was expected to destroy the Bajoran sun. And trilithium was stolen from the E-D in TNG "Starship Mine." It was quite valuable then. Both statements contradict "Starship Mine" and the DS9 episode.

[The Kernel]

He's pulling L&B's legs.

That's a very farfetched conclusion given your availible evidence...

Trilithium in a Founder's bomb (the Founder posed as Bashir, IIRC) was expected to destroy the Bajoran sun.

Dominion technology might very well have solved the problems of the Trilithium nova weapon, but according to Worf in "Generations", the Romulans had not and he implied that the Federation also had no such technology (or else Riker wouldn't have needed this explained to him).

And trilithium was stolen from the E-D in TNG "Starship Mine." It was quite valuable then. Both statements contradict "Starship Mine" and the DS9 episode.

Valuable as an explosive (Picard mentioned it might be used as a bomb), never was it mentioned that it could be used as a nova weapon.

[Ma Deuce]

Trilithium in a Founder's bomb (the Founder posed as Bashir, IIRC) was expected to destroy the Bajoran sun.

I thought the Founder's bomb was based on protomatter?

[The Kernel]

Trilithium in a Founder's bomb (the Founder posed as Bashir, IIRC) was expected to destroy the Bajoran sun.

I thought the Founder's bomb was based on protomatter?

Nope, that was the bomb that Kira's old friend from the resistance tried to blow up the wormhole with. The Founder's bomb was indeed Trilithium.

[Metrion Cascade]

The burden of proof isn't on me. You're proposing something more complex than what we saw in TNG "Starship Mine" (improper containment=boom) I'll wait for you to demonstrate how you know that and what you think the more complex mechanism is.

Bullshit. Grow a fucking brain, moron. The fact that this stuff blew up a small shuttle through containment loss does not mean that it must also set off a supernova through the same mechanism. Does the term "non sequitur" mean anything to you? Or is simple logic just beyond your intellectual capacity?

Occam's Razor. You propose something more complex than simple delivery, with no evidence of that. Meanwhile the fake Bashir flies into a star with a container of trilithium that looks to be just that - a container - and you contradict that by saying the bomb must have been using some fancy mechanism to cause the nova. We KNOW that Soran lied about trilithium being experimental. We KNOW that he lied about it being worthless without his research. We KNOW that he lied about it not being stable. Even if the Romulans somehow don't know how to stabilize it, common Fed criminals did.

Strawman fallacy. The Federation's motives for having the station and Soran's motives for being there don't have to be one and the same. The Federation wants one thing researched, Soran does that and a little weapon design on the side.

For a weapon which is "commonplace"? Right.

I will not address your meaningless "common" strawman again.

His true motivation being to return to the Nexus. Are you seriously saying the Federation was researching starkilling weapons? Using a base whose staff couldn't escape the result of such a weapon?

I'm seriously saying that whatever the Federation was researching there was obviously necessary for Soren's own weapon research, and that this would not have been necessary if such weapons were commonplace; he could simply buy one.

How do you know he found them?

Grow a brain. He wasn't advertising his weapon all over the place, so obviously he would have had to covertly seek a buyer, rather than buyers coming to him.

Against the same ships, phasers and torpedoes alone didn't do the same damage. They'd been fighting with the same weapons and less effect.

Ah, so you conclude that they violated conservation of energy instead of simply using a neat trick to hit a ship from its flanks rather than its forward shield? Always leaping to the simplest conclusion, right?:roll:

No. I never said the "photonic shockwave" delivered more energy. I said it did more damage. That doesn't necessarily mean more net energy, but a way of delivering it that went through the ships' shields or some other such treknobabble. The pulse that engaged L&B's cloak in "Generations" dropped their shields without the firepower to overwhelm them. I would assume that the photonic shockwave relied on some weakness in the Quarran ships (also explaining why we've never seen it used elsewhere).

I never said they were "common." That's a completely meaningless and unprovable statement.

You suggested that trilithium weapons might be "Unless it was commonplace and still hard to get". If you can't defend it, just back down instead of pretending you never said it.

I'll wait for a quote where I said they were common or uncommon or set a standard for what I did or didn't consider common.

The point was that a given effect does not require tech specifically designed to generate it (further devaluing specific technologies). A BOP is not designed as a planetkiller, and a person trying to acquire a BOP doesn't think of it as one. But here we have a run-of-the-mill BOP pulling off the same feat that makes the Scimitar the hellish threat Picard thought it was. If the Scimitar is so dangerous because it can kill a planet, why isn't Picard off hunting BOPs? The above isn't necessary to my stance, but is a factor in determining how valuable L&B should consider trilithium.

"Appeal to ignorance" fallacy; with no evidence at all, you are proposing that capabilities must exist because I can't disprove them.

The capabilities have been demonstrated. And the above is not necessary to demonstrate them.

It fits the fact that a race more advanced than the Federation was interested in a weapon that, without the above advantages, is scarcely more valuable than a kilo of trilithium waste any GCS (and possibly any Fed ship) can generate. Their actions don't make sense unless the Utaat has some advantage over trilithium. We know from onscreen events that it is less volatile. The Utaat was tossed around and phasered, and the cute little explosion from the phasering caused virtually no damage. Unlike the trilithium that blew up a whole ship in TNG "Starship Mine" due to improper containment. That's an Utaat that can be phasered safely, vs. exorbitant effort to contain trilithium lest it otherwise explode violently.

"Circular logic" fallacy. You are assuming that the trilithium weapon is easily made in order to support your general argument that it is easily made.

GCSs produce trilithium. I didn't say (and don't care) whether that constitutes them being common.

Trilithium is generated by at least a dozen Fed ships and maybe all Fed or all M/AM driven ships. And where is your black/white fallacy of "common vs. uncommon" coming from? I never said these weapons were common ore even proposed a standard of what is or isn't common. All of Starfleet could be carrying this weapon and that still wouldn't mean L&B could readily get their hands on it.

What you are saying is that such weapons can be easily made. So easily made that it could even happen by accident. Ergo, they would be common, and by the way, you did suggest that the explanation for Lursa and Betor was that the weapons were "commonplace but not readily available", whatever the fuck that means.

Nonsense. You need only force its leadership to surrender and/or wipe out its infrastructure. Its military will fall with no infrastructure.

Not before killing L&B. A single 50yo BOP is not going to outlast a fleet of younger BOPs and Vor'chas and Negh'vars.

Completely evading the point, I see. Go back and read it again, and then answer it.

They have to factor that in when they assess their readiness to take over the Empire. And if they do destroy all the planets or Qo'Nos, or all the infrastructure supporting the fleet, there's functionally no empire left for them to take over. Just ships that want them dead.

Don't be a moron. "Destroy military infrastructure or force leadership to surrender" does not necessarily mean "destroy all the planets and Quo'Nos". The Klingon leadership was on its knees after simply losing Quo'Nos' ozone layer once; they're not as tough as you think they are.

You're kidding, right? Even by Klingon standards they were already common criminals. And most Klingon captains we've met operated like common criminals themselves. And what do they care if they act like criminals? I'd act like a criminal too if I thought it would get me control of an empire. After which I'd silence anyone who called me a criminal, assuming they could find out what I'd done to get the weapon anyway. You're saying this action contradicts scruples that most Klingon officers (let alone the outcast L&B) just don't have.

I'm saying this action is totally unnecessary if any idiot can make this weapon by simply bleeding trilithium out of a warp core and sticking it in a fucking tube, moron. Your thesis is bullshit.

Yet another strawman. I didn't say anyone can make it with any warp core. GCSs make it. But that doesn't therefore mean all warp capable ships make it or even all Fed ships.

Why the hell do Klingons who're willing to destroy star systems care that other Klingons won't like them for killing a few Feds and ROMULANS? It's like someone who wants to nuke New York hesitating to kill a security guard at a missile silo because killing the guard would be murder. If they have a problem with being criminals, why are they after the weapon?

Debasing oneself to a common criminal in this case means risking their own safety and potentially being caught and destroyed during an incursion into Federation space, moron. You don't do that without need.

Klingons? Risking their safety? Attacking Feds? No, no Klingon officer ever did that without need...

TNG "A Matter of Honor" - Kargan wants to destroy the E-D for giving his ship a parasite.
TNG "Heart of Glory" - Korris and Konmel murder a Klingon crew and try to take the E-D.

And your "commonplace and still hard to get" explanation is so meaningless that it's downright funny.

Money is "commonplace" and I'm not a millionaire. Cocaine is "commonplace" and I don't know where to buy it. Cars are "commonplace" and some people don't have the means to buy them.

So? You're not a former head of an entire rebellion either. They would have more than enough connections to get such things if they were commonplace.

Blah, blah, blah. Define "common" and I'll answer you.

There's no point in trying to prove that starkilling tech is "common" when nobody has decided what does or doesn't constitute "common." It's like debating whether a ship is "fast." The word is meaningless and a stance on the question is totally subjective. You can't debate something like that. You can debate what its actual quantitative speed might be, or whether it's faster than another ship. But you can't debate "fast."

You can, however, point out that they are extremely rare, and were not used in many, many incidents where mass destruction was perfectly palatable. For example, the incident with Martok where you bullshitted a flare into a supernova demonstrates what I'm talking about; their chance of success would have been far higher with one of these "commonplace" torpedoes of yours.

I never said Klingons had trilithium.

Similarly, why send a whole fleet of ships in "The Die is Cast" if one ship with a supernova torp would have done the job? Why would the Dominion risk one of its own founders in a ridiculously convoluted scheme to deliver one of these weapons if they had lots of them, and could have simply mounted them on dozens of ships at once, thus easily overwhelming DS9's ability to intercept? Your thesis falls apart upon closer examination, and you know it.

What job is this? And pat yourself on the back for refuting my thesis after you figure out what my actual stance was. Any further references to "you said they were common" will be treated as strawmen.

Are you saying starkillers aren't common compared to some other weapon?

Wow, you finally figured it out. Congratulations.

You didn't say compared to what other weapon. Your original stance (utterly meaningless) was that they were less common than people thought. That's completely subjective. Changing your stance now to say that you meant less common than something else won't help you look any less stupid.

[Metrion Cascade]

Whatever it is, it's clear that Soren's research was required for it to take out a star, contrary to what Metrion Cascade is claiming.

She's already conceeded the whole argument. She said that Klingon's do not have access to nova weapons, yet Trilithium is fairly common as a biproduct of warp engines.

No I didn't. I never said Martok used trilithium. Nor did I say all warp drives or even all Fed warp drives produce trilithium. It is inarguable that GCS cores produce it.

Also, let's consider that Worf said in Generations that Trilithium could be used as a solar inhibitor, but the Romulans had never found a way to make it stable. This suggests that without Soren's research, the Trilithium weapon would have been useless (which Soren himself said to L&B).

And he was lying. In TNG "Starship Mine," terrorists wanted to steal it. And they had the means to stabilize it (they died when Picard took that means away). I won't take that to mean the Romulans can stabilize it too, but it does seem unlikely that the Romulan military can't stabilize it when Federation criminals can.

[Metrion Cascade]

He's pulling L&B's legs.

That's a very farfetched conclusion given your availible evidence...

No, it's canon fact. He said it was worthless (inarguably false), not simply that it was less useful. Worthless. He also lied about it being experimental. And while there's no proof he lied about Romulans not being able to stabilize it, it would then bear explaining why the Romulans can't do it and Fed criminals can.

Trilithium in a Founder's bomb (the Founder posed as Bashir, IIRC) was expected to destroy the Bajoran sun.

Dominion technology might very well have solved the problems of the Trilithium nova weapon, but according to Worf in "Generations", the Romulans had not and he implied that the Federation also had no such technology (or else Riker wouldn't have needed this explained to him).

Which could mean Romulan warp cores don't produce trilithium. And the Dominion device was roughly the same size as the simple container from "Starship Mine." If using it as a nova weapon requires more complex machinery than that, where the hell was that machinery?

And trilithium was stolen from the E-D in TNG "Starship Mine." It was quite valuable then. Both statements contradict "Starship Mine" and the DS9 episode.

Valuable as an explosive (Picard mentioned it might be used as a bomb), never was it mentioned that it could be used as a nova weapon.

Soran said it was completely worthless (a lie). And the only other references to trilithium are as nova weapons.

[The Kernel]

No, it's canon fact. He said it was worthless (inarguably false), not simply that it was less useful. Worthless. He also lied about it being experimental. And while there's no proof he lied about Romulans not being able to stabilize it, it would then bear explaining why the Romulans can't do it and Fed criminals can.

Boy you're stupid. Soren wasn't lying about the uselessness of Trilithium. He meant that it was USLESS FOR THE PURPOSES THAT L&B NEEDED IT FOR. A small explosive isn't going to help them win the Klingon Empire is it?

And btw, the Federation DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO STABILIZE TRILITHIUM. Picard said that Trilithium was "a highly unstable compound produced by the ships engines". What proof do you have that they know how to stabilize it?

Which could mean Romulan warp cores don't produce trilithium. And the Dominion device was roughly the same size as the simple container from "Starship Mine." If using it as a nova weapon requires more complex machinery than that, where the hell was that machinery?

Do I even need to shoot holes in this ridiculous logic?

1) The Trilithium was stolen from the Romulans. Which means they can at least syntesize it.

2) Size doesn't indicate technological capabilties moron. I can build a box the same size as a nuclear bomb that can both hold uranium. Does that mean they are the same technology level?

Soran said it was completely worthless (a lie). And the only other references to trilithium are as nova weapons.

Useless for L&B's purposes. Do I need to spell everything out for you?

[The Kernel]

And he was lying. In TNG "Starship Mine," terrorists wanted to steal it. And they had the means to stabilize it (they died when Picard took that means away). I won't take that to mean the Romulans can stabilize it too, but it does seem unlikely that the Romulan military can't stabilize it when Federation criminals can.

They CONTAINED it, they didn't stabilize it you dense fucking moron. Jesus H. Christ, do you have any analytical skills whatsoever? You really think terrorists that were performing a low tech heist have greater capabilities then one of the Alpha Quadrant's greatest powers?

[Darth Wong]

Occam's Razor. You propose something more complex than simple delivery, with no evidence of that.

Thank you for demonstrating that you are obviously too fucking stupid to understand Occam's Razor. You just assigned a fantastic capability to a substance based solely on the fact that it blew up a shuttle, and you think I'm the one violating Occam's Razor? Get a grip, moron. We even have explicit dialogue to contradict your bullshit.

Meanwhile the fake Bashir flies into a star with a container of trilithium that looks to be just that - a container - and you contradict that by saying the bomb must have been using some fancy mechanism to cause the nova.

You're basing your argument upon the fact that the object had a casing?

We KNOW that Soran lied about trilithium being experimental. We KNOW that he lied about it being worthless without his research. We KNOW that he lied about it not being stable. Even if the Romulans somehow don't know how to stabilize it, common Fed criminals did.

Contain, not stabilize. I see you are reverting to your typical "lying bitch" methods.

I will not address your meaningless "common" strawman again.

Too bad you said it. I guess this is your way of conceding the point.

No. I never said the "photonic shockwave" delivered more energy. I said it did more damage. That doesn't necessarily mean more net energy, but a way of delivering it that went through the ships' shields or some other such treknobabble.

Then it wasn't all that spectacular, and your point fails. Thanks for playing.

I'll wait for a quote where I said they were common or uncommon or set a standard for what I did or didn't consider common.

I provided it in the last post. Not my fault that you can't read.

The capabilities have been demonstrated. And the above is not necessary to demonstrate them.

Demonstrated by other weapons, so you simply assume that any object containing trilithium must have this capability. By your moronic logic, the uranium mines in northern Canada must be capable of exploding like A-bombs, because they have uranium in them. And so we come to the logical fallacy upon which your entire argument is based: "if substance A is found in weapon B, then all of weapon B's characteristics must be common to any example of substance A". In short, a huge fallacy of composition, easily disproven by real-life examples as I have demonstrated.

Ergo, your logic does not connect. You take the facts and use them to leap to a gigantic non sequitur, and then assume that anyone who disagrees with your fallacious logic must be disputing the facts themselves, not your hopeless attempt to premise to unrelated conclusion.

<snip more pathetic repetitions of this laughable fallacy>

You didn't say compared to what other weapon. Your original stance (utterly meaningless) was that they were less common than people thought. That's completely subjective. Changing your stance now to say that you meant less common than something else won't help you look any less stupid.

THAT is your triumphant declaration of victory? That I didn't clearly specify what object I was comparing their commonality to? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

[Ma Deuce]

Trilithium in a Founder's bomb (the Founder posed as Bashir, IIRC) was expected to destroy the Bajoran sun.

I thought the Founder's bomb was based on protomatter?

Nope, that was the bomb that Kira's old friend from the resistance tried to blow up the wormhole with. The Founder's bomb was indeed Trilithium.

I just dug up the episode: When the Defiant was chasing down the stolen runabout with the Founder's nova bomb on board, Dax said she was detecting large ammounts of tekacite, trilithium, and protomatter on board, obviosly meaning that the Dominion could not build nova bombs using trilithium alone...

[Sarevok]

Good point. Proto matter could be an exotic substance as rare as trilithium.

[Howedar]

Could be? We know precisely what it is. It was the goop used in the Genesis device in ST2.

[General Zod]

i don't think i'd necessarily classify trilithium so much as rare as simply difficult to obtain without proper connections. using the uranium analogy, uranium in this age is common enough to power our nuclear reactors, but nobody outside of certain agencies is going to be able to have access to it due how controlled it is.

if every GCS generates trilithium residue, (if not other starships, i don't know if it's just unique to GCS), then it's probably safe to assume that quite a bit of trilithium is generated and disposed of as toxic waste, considering the federation is likely to have a good number of GCS in its fleet.

[Uraniun235]

if every GCS generates trilithium residue, (if not other starships, i don't know if it's just unique to GCS), then it's probably safe to assume that quite a bit of trilithium is generated and disposed of as toxic waste, considering the federation is likely to have a good number of GCS in its fleet.

According to the non-canon TM, Gene Roddenberry suggested that in TNG the Federation only had six Galaxy-class starships... which isn't too surprising, given that the TM also gives a timeline of about thirteen years to build the Enterprise.

We also don't know how much trilithium each starship produces, as the terrrorists took a very small amount IIRC.

[General Zod]

i was thinking by the time of DS9 and after Generations, actually.

[Straha]

Dr. Timicin wasn't attempting to make the star go boom.

His home star had reached the end of its fusion cycle; it ran out of hydrogen fuel, they wanted to find a similar star to test his theory of re-initiating fusion using helium as a fuel.

Something went wrong with the calculations, and star go boom.

So? The end was that it still went boom! Now theoretically you could use his research to make other stars go BOOM, and thus wield a pretty hefty weapon.

Other helium stars.

?

I think that it would be safe to assume that other stars, probably younger stars too, would be affected by the torps, and then if things go like they did with the star in the episode the star will explode.

Considering how many stars there are in the Empire, and how easy it would be for the feddies to get to at least a few (hire out a trader/buy a ship/hijack a small ship) stars then you could cause some serious fear, if not damage to the Empire...

It could also concievably give them a betting chip to use against the Empire in case they want to get more autonomy, or technology, etc.

[HRogge]

I think that it would be safe to assume that other stars, probably younger stars too, would be affected by the torps, and then if things go like they did with the star in the episode the star will explode.

Young stars don't have enough helium to provide energy for this nova trick ( if it can be repeated ).

The stable state of the main sequence stars is the time where they burn hydrogen. When they end this phase most of them will become red giants.

And a weapon to blow up read giants would be pretty useless for the Federation.

[Xon]

I think that it would be safe to assume that other stars, probably younger stars too, would be affected by the torps, and then if things go like they did with the star in the episode the star will explode.

Young stars don't have enough helium to provide energy for this nova trick ( if it can be repeated ).

Assumming the trick can be repeated, while it might not trigger a nova in a star, it should trash an habital planets weather system from solar flares and the Star burning hotter than normal.

[HRogge]

Assumming the trick can be repeated, while it might not trigger a nova in a star, it should trash an habital planets weather system from solar flares and the Star burning hotter than normal.

Standard main sequence stars don't have a helium core... there is not enough helium to produce a stable sphere of it at the center. Only when the star get's old and starts shell-burning hydrogen, you get a core of helium that could be used to create additional fusion reactions.

[Straha]

I think that it would be safe to assume that other stars, probably younger stars too, would be affected by the torps, and then if things go like they did with the star in the episode the star will explode.

Young stars don't have enough helium to provide energy for this nova trick ( if it can be repeated ).

The stable state of the main sequence stars is the time where they burn hydrogen. When they end this phase most of them will become red giants.

And a weapon to blow up read giants would be pretty useless for the Federation.

No, it wasn't the helium that triggered the explosion. Apparently, the torpedoes exploded/injected stuff into the star, and that's supposed to turn the star into a helium star, but in the actual event there was a "neutron migration" that caused the temperature in the star to keep rising, and thus go boomy.

As for the Red Giants, would you even want a planet around one of them?