Gul Dukat WTF

[FTeik]

The way i see it, they needed a villain to be defeated by Sisko at the end and so they took the one they used at the beginning.

Who else could they have used?

Damar, who wasn´t present enough and was needed to represent the "good" Cardassia in the end.

Weyon? Come on, that would have been to much slime and no serious opponent for the great "emissary of the prophets.

Female Founder? Nah, that was Odo´s job.

One of the Jem´Hadar? For almost the last two seasons, we didn´t see one of them as major charakter. "Roak and shoals" was, IIRC, the last one, where they were more, than just cannon-fodder.

And yes, turning Dukat into this religious nutcase was bad.

[TurboPhaser]

They did handle Dukat properly, and certainly wasnt a 'hackjob'. He changed cause the death of his daughter drove him mad.

Thats a perfectly reasonable explanation because thats what happened in the series. He was normal (you know what i mean) up till Zial died, then he went nuts, formed that cult then went totally off the Galaxy and did the rest.

[Stofsk]

They did handle Dukat properly, and certainly wasnt a 'hackjob'. He changed cause the death of his daughter drove him mad. .

Thats a perfectly reasonable explanation because thats what happened in the series. He was normal (you know what i mean) up till Zial died, then he went nuts, formed that cult then went totally off the Galaxy and did the rest

*Ahem*

Are you forgetting the glowing red eyes, demonic possession and supervillian powers? Insanity or not, Dukat wasn't the only guy to go nuts.

[Tsyroc]

I didn't mind Dukat going nuts for a little while.

I didn't like him becoming the leader of a Pah Wraith Cult. Something about the episode on Empok Nor where he's got all those Bajoran sheep following him.

The stuff later on where he's trying to research the Pah Wraiths could make sense without him becoming religious. After getting screwed by the prophets it's not exactly outrageous to think that he might go looking for the natural enemies of the Prophets. He could have worked to release the Pah Wraiths without ever becoming a believer just because they would have worked to counter the Prophets, or at least keep them busy.

[Darth Wong]

I didn't mind Dukat going nuts for a little while.

I didn't like him becoming the leader of a Pah Wraith Cult. Something about the episode on Empok Nor where he's got all those Bajoran sheep following him.

The stuff later on where he's trying to research the Pah Wraiths could make sense without him becoming religious. After getting screwed by the prophets it's not exactly outrageous to think that he might go looking for the natural enemies of the Prophets. He could have worked to release the Pah Wraiths without ever becoming a believer just because they would have worked to counter the Prophets, or at least keep them busy.

Of course, you're excusing the writers for inventing these ridiculously cliched "Pah Wraith" fire demons in the first place. Why didn't they just call them "Satan's Minions", so their utter creative bankruptcy would be more clear?

[Sothis]

I was skimming through some of the DS9 DVDs that "The Kernel" graciously lent me, and what's the deal with Dukat's character? It seems that as we move from season 1 through to season 4/5, his character becomes more complex, shows more shades of moral ambiguity and perhaps even a hint of ethical awareness, and then BAM! In the last couple of seasons, he becomes a screaming evil demon, complete with glowing red eyes. What the fuck is that?

Did the writers think that it was a good idea to take his character in one direction and then suddenly go hurtling off to left field with it, or were they simply unaware that they were doing a hackjob on him?

I don't think they did a bad job on Dukat at all. Consider what the start of Season Six did to him- in the space of a few minutes he lost the reinforcements, the station, and his daughter. His entire world collapsed around him in a matter of minutes. That would mess with anyone's head.

I think the Season Six ep 'Waltz' gives us a good indication of where Dukat is headed. It's clear his counsellors did a piss-poor job of helping him, if his hallucinations were any indication- and I don't think Sisko was particularly kind either, prodding and nudging Dukat to declare that he should have wiped out the Bajorans. After that ep Dukat seems to view Sisko as public enemy number one, and so goes out to hurt Sisko- and what's the most public way to do that? Via Sisko's position as Emmisary.

To acheive his aims? Dukat invites a Palwraith into him. That can't exactly be a stablilizing influence on an unstable mind. From there, Dukat is beyond help.

[Sothis]

I'd like to know if there was a single solitary person who found the Pah-Wraith/Prophet plotline to be interesting, compelling, worthwhile, or even tolerable.

The use of multiple intertwining plotlines is not new to DS9, and has been a staple of fiction for a long time. BUT NOT FOR ITS OWN SAKE!!! If it makes sense for some reason to have two simultaneous stories going on at any given moment, fine. But when you have a "big story arc" like the Dominion War, there's no fucking need to have a second equally large arc as a backup, and when you make one which sucks as badly as the Pah-Wraith/Prophet arc did, you have to ask yourself what the fuck you were smoking.

The Prophet/Palwraith/Emmisary business started in the very first episode of DS9, as a low-level story arc that would pop up every so often (it made a few appearances in Season Four and Season Five, had some important impacts in Season Six, and reached it's crescendo in Season Seven). I for one DID enjoy the Prophet story arc.

[Tsyroc]

Of course, you're excusing the writers for inventing these ridiculously cliched "Pah Wraith" fire demons in the first place. Why didn't they just call them "Satan's Minions", so their utter creative bankruptcy would be more clear?

If we get right down to it I'm excusing them for "borrowing" the concept (and more) of the show from Babylon 5 before I even get to the part about the Pah Wraiths.


Still, I'm not crazy about the Pah Wraiths but I don't mind them all that much either.

[TurboPhaser]

They did handle Dukat properly, and certainly wasnt a 'hackjob'. He changed cause the death of his daughter drove him mad. .

Thats a perfectly reasonable explanation because thats what happened in the series. He was normal (you know what i mean) up till Zial died, then he went nuts, formed that cult then went totally off the Galaxy and did the rest

*Ahem*

Are you forgetting the glowing red eyes, demonic possession and supervillian powers? Insanity or not, Dukat wasn't the only guy to go nuts.

The death of his daughter made him crazy enough to go search for the Pah Wraiths do all that evil stuff, which inturn drove him further to madness.

[Darth Wong]

I don't think they did a bad job on Dukat at all. Consider what the start of Season Six did to him- in the space of a few minutes he lost the reinforcements, the station, and his daughter. His entire world collapsed around him in a matter of minutes. That would mess with anyone's head.

You're still not getting the point. That whole sequence of events didn't make any fucking sense. Defending Dukat's reaction to an insane, stupid, and contemptibly bad plot twist is an evasion to the point that I'm talking about the WRITERS here. Of course Dukat went nuts; the events themselves were insane too! 2800 ships vanishing into thin air because some wormhole gods decided to intervene in a territorial war?

That ridiculous plot twist served as a device to make Dukat go nuts and seek the Pah Wraiths. Fine, say that if you want. But the fucking plot twist ITSELF is fucking insane and stupid. What you're saying is that it's OK for Dukat's character to take a COMPLETE left turn because the writers shoved a HUGE deus ex machina down his throat and he gagged on it. How does that defend the shitty writing of DS9?

[The Kernel]

Wouldn't it have been something if the Star Trek writers had decided that instead of just losing the station for a few episodes, the entire Federation collapsed and the crew had to spend the next few seasons as a rogue Starfleet remnant? Course they never did have the balls for major plot changes.

[Stofsk]

The Prophet/Palwraith/Emmisary business started in the very first episode of DS9, as a low-level story arc that would pop up every so often (it made a few appearances in Season Four and Season Five, had some important impacts in Season Six, and reached it's crescendo in Season Seven). I for one DID enjoy the Prophet story arc.

The Pah-wraiths first appeared in Season 5, not the pilot "Emmisary." I for one enjoyed the Bajoran religion when it was just the Prophets, I hated it when they introduced the demons and devils who were "cast out" of the "celestial temple" so they could languish in the "fire caves." Et cetera et cetera.

The death of his daughter made him crazy enough to go search for the Pah Wraiths do all that evil stuff, which inturn drove him further to madness.

You're operating under a misunderstanding: I am fully aware that Dukat was driven crazy by

1) The death of his daughter, killed by a trusted confidant no less (whom he, incredibly, held no grudge against - *sniff sniff* ah yes, bullshit)

and

2) The victory of the Federation and the defeat of his fleet.

What you don't understand is Dukat became possessed by a demon - hence the glowing red eyes bullshit - when he attacked the prophets (season 6 cliffhanger, I forget the title).

I can accept Dukat going nuts, but lets look at the cause:

His daughter. She betrayed him - though I bet $5 he would have forgiven her, that was one of his complexities - and she was killed by Damar. Damar was Dukat's sidekick, arguably the one person he could trust below his daughter. He killed her, and she died in his arms.

Fair enough. He goes nuts afterwards. So, why doesn't he kill Damar? Because he can "forgive" him and concentrate on the Bigger Target, ie Sisko and the Prophets? Yeah, right. He's insane, remember? Wracked with guilt over the death of his daughter. Who was the one guy directly responsible (ie. pulled the trigger) for his daughter's death? Damar. So why doesn't he kill him?

So what about the prophets? Oh yeah, they wiped out 2'000 warships with a sweep of the hands. Just like that. Great, so why don't they help the federation by destroying the rest of the Dominion's forces? Oh, wait, we can't do that - that would be too easy. In any case, the inclusion of the Prophets as a deus ex machina signified that the writers were full of shit, and the Federation - the good guys - pulled a victory right out of their arses.

Does the two points above - Ziyal's death and the Prophets Handwaving - excuse turning Dukat into a glowing-red-eye demon who fights the prophets with "magic?" Fuck no.

Slightly OT: there was another season 6 episode which had Jake being possessed by a Pah-wraith and Kira being possessed by a Prophet, and yea, they did do battle on the hallowed halls of the Promenade... Dukat wasn't the only fucking thing the writers got wrong in their crack-addled fantasy.

[Stofsk]

Wouldn't it have been something if the Star Trek writers had decided that instead of just losing the station for a few episodes, the entire Federation collapsed and the crew had to spend the next few seasons as a rogue Starfleet remnant? Course they never did have the balls for major plot changes.

I would have liked to see the war being waged by a proper military, with tactics and strategies etc. Your idea is pretty cool, and it would have been nice to see the Starfleet remnant team up with the Maquis survivors (in my fantasy land, lalala...). The fights would have been more desperate, territory would've been held onto for dear life; and I for one would have loved to have seen a Battle for Earth instead of the weak Battle for DS9 that we got instead.

But to be blunt, I don't think the writer's were either a) ready for it, or b) capable of it. Their piss-poor management of the final arc was telling enough as it is, but they fucked up way back when in season 4 when they (incredibly) made the Klingons the bad guys, in spite of the fact that for the last 3 years they had been gearing up the Cardassians and now the Dominion. I could only shrug in disbelief.

[Sothis]

What I'm seeing in this thread is a lot of subjective opinion about the job the writers did of handling Dukat (and the Prophets/Palwraiths etc). There are those who didn't like the Duakt story arc, and those who did- but it's never going to be resolved one way or the other because it's a subjective, opinion-based set of arguments for and against.

[Stofsk]

What shits me though is the enormous potential that, in my eyes, was wasted. Dukat's storyarc could have been handled so much better - instead of having him turn into a demon who attacks the Prophets, what's wrong with him seeking ordinary vengeance against Damar - and afterwards, Sisko and the Federation? What's wrong with having battles fought and won by the use of overwhelming numbers and proper strategy/tactics? Why do we need Dukat being possessed by a demon to fight his enemies? Why do we need the Federation to be bailed out by gods?

DS9 was at one point my favourite ST show - a lot better than TNG and VOY, and (at times) better than TOS. But it could have been so much more. While it is a subjective debate, there are a lot of objective qualities in the writing which you can evaluate. For instance, the Deus Ex Machina ending to SoA can be recognised as such, and criticised accordingly. Same goes with Dukat - at one stage he was complex and a very cool character, the next he had glowing red eyes and cast spells to bring down the wormhole gods. We can criticise both for these violations - objectively, SoA was nothing more than an anticlimactic conclusion to an otherwise fine battle; equally so, Dukat's bizarre character change was nothing more than a stunt by the writers who had no idea on where to put the character.

[Darth Wong]

What I'm seeing in this thread is a lot of subjective opinion about the job the writers did of handling Dukat (and the Prophets/Palwraiths etc). There are those who didn't like the Duakt story arc, and those who did- but it's never going to be resolved one way or the other because it's a subjective, opinion-based set of arguments for and against.

Bullshit. It is not subjective to state that the intervention of the wormhole gods was a gigantic and stupid Deus Ex Machina, or that the eternal conflict between light-dwelling angels in the sky and subterranean red-eyed demons is an obvious, pathetic, and utterly sickening attempt to inject a pseudo-Christian ethic into the show.

[Tsyroc]

Bullshit. It is not subjective to state that the intervention of the wormhole gods was a gigantic and stupid Deus Ex Machina, or that the eternal conflict between light-dwelling angels in the sky and subterranean red-eyed demons is an obvious, pathetic, and utterly sickening attempt to inject a pseudo-Christian ethic into the show.

That actually works pretty well. The Pah Wraiths are never shown doing anything "good" but some of the stuff the Prophets do is pretty bad. Possessing Sisko's mother to make sure that she married his father and had him is pretty fucked up.


Still, I didn't mind the Deus Ex save nearly as much as most but I can see how it would be infuriating to people who were waiting to see how the Alpha quadrant was going to deal with all of those ships reenforcing the Dominion forces. Essentially it was a variation of the "reset button".