Why doesn't the Borg ever assimilate the Federation?

[Rogue 9]

<snippity-do-for-space>

That doesn't jive with First Contact where the Borg's Evil Scheme involved jumping back to the middle of the 21st century -- back before Earth had any real tech at all -- to try to prevent first contact and assimilate the planet. They'd lose any tech the Federation would have gained that way.

Isn't that what I said?

[Gil Hamilton]

Isn't that what I said?

Yes, but I was repeating the same idea in response to someones post. Down boy.

[Robert Walper]

Actually it strikes me more like one cube is plenty enough to assimilate the Federation, but the two they sent got beaten by those "special circumstances". Kinda like the Death Star getting destroyed by a single fighter, and jumping to the conclusion you need more than one to accomplish the failed objective(destruction of Yavin).

Except they kept failing.

You're exaggerating. The Borg failed the first time, after utterly crushing every defensive measure the Federation threw at the cube. The failed mission at that time was do to extremely unusual circumstances, and we both know it. This is failure #1, and because it was so unique, I would find it completely ridiculas the Borg would panic and send fleets of cubes to attack the Federation. In fact, I was very pleased that the Borg only sent one cube again at Earth. This confirmed they knew that the Enterprise's intervention was fluke. Their seond vessel proceeded to plow through defenses that apparently were significantly more vast that Starfleet's original ones.

This indictates failure on the Borg end, not on Federation luck. The Borg should have looked at the fact that one Cube failed to defeat the Federation, no matter what the circumstances, recognized that had they sent multiple they would have easily succeed, then sent multiple ships.

I disagree. Using your logic, the Empire should have looked at the Yavin battle, and concluded that a single Death Star was defeated by a Rebel fighter craft. Based upon this failure(ignoring circumstances), they should "need" to build a fleet of Death Stars in order to destroy Yavin(or whatever Rebel world). Instead, the goal would be to correct the issue that resulted in failure. And that is what the Borg did. Notice Starfleet's apparent inability to hack the second cube, or even make the attempt.

It's a "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice..." situation.

Both attacks failed due to special circumstances. It is very important to note both attacks failed by different special circumstances. This was made quite clear. And frankly, the Borg had changed their tactics. Notice that no other single cube attacks were sent, and that by STVOY "Endgame", the Borg had deployed a transwarp hub conduit less than a lightyear from Earth. They could have virtually sent an entire fleet to assimilate Earth utilizing this surprise attack with virtually no warning.

If they had any brain power at all, they would have curb stomped the Federation the second time around instead of trying to assimilate the Federation with their daffy time travel scheme.

They were curb stopping to Federation. Once again, they were stopped by special circumstances. The first attack failing was a fluke, the second failed attack would suggest that a different stradegy is required. And that is exactly what the Borg did. They built a transwarp conduit less than a lightyear from Earth that could have deployed an entire fleet there within minutes. I saw no flaw with their logic. Your entire premise is based upon the idea that a single failure should never take into account circumstances, and should make any power(regardles of the scope and ratio to the enemy) panic and send a entire fleet against the Federation the second time.

[Gil Hamilton]

You're exaggerating. The Borg failed the first time, after utterly crushing every defensive measure the Federation threw at the cube. The failed mission at that time was do to extremely unusual circumstances, and we both know it. This is failure #1, and because it was so unique, I would find it completely ridiculas the Borg would panic and send fleets of cubes to attack the Federation. In fact, I was very pleased that the Borg only sent one cube again at Earth. This confirmed they knew that the Enterprise's intervention was fluke. Their seond vessel proceeded to plow through defenses that apparently were significantly more vast that Starfleet's original ones.

It's no exaggeration, both times were complete objective failures and both cubes were lost with all hands. It's not a matter of panicking, it's a matter of guaranteeing success. The Federation could barely destroy one cube. It would have been completely justifiable to send five then, because objectively, the Federation would have no way to defeat all of them.

I disagree. Using your logic, the Empire should have looked at the Yavin battle, and concluded that a single Death Star was defeated by a Rebel fighter craft. Based upon this failure(ignoring circumstances), they should "need" to build a fleet of Death Stars in order to destroy Yavin(or whatever Rebel world). Instead, the goal would be to correct the issue that resulted in failure. And that is what the Borg did. Notice Starfleet's apparent inability to hack the second cube, or even make the attempt.

Actually, the Empire did the right thing, they built a second, much bigger, Death Star that didn't have the same exploitable weakness that the original Death Star did. Had it have been finished, the Rebels wouldn't have been able to do squat about it.

Both attacks failed due to special circumstances. It is very important to note both attacks failed by different special circumstances. This was made quite clear. And frankly, the Borg had changed their tactics. Notice that no other single cube attacks were sent, and that by STVOY "Endgame", the Borg had deployed a transwarp hub conduit less than a lightyear from Earth. They could have virtually sent an entire fleet to assimilate Earth utilizing this surprise attack with virtually no warning.

And did they? It should have never come to that. The Borg didn't have the brains to send more than one cube the second time around, even though that would have completely guaranteed their success.

Plus, the second time, they sabatoged their own plan. They went back in time right in front of the Federation forces, advertising their master plan and giving the Enterprise the opportunity to do something about it. Had they have went back in time before they engaged the Federation forces, they would have easily conquered Earth and defeated the Federation.

They were curb stopping to Federation. Once again, they were stopped by special circumstances. The first attack failing was a fluke, the second failed attack would suggest that a different stradegy is required. And that is exactly what the Borg did. They built a transwarp conduit less than a lightyear from Earth that could have deployed an entire fleet there within minutes. I saw no flaw with their logic. Your entire premise is based upon the idea that a single failure should never take into account circumstances, and should make any power(regardles of the scope and ratio to the enemy) panic and send a entire fleet against the Federation the second time.

No, my premise takes into account the undisputable facts about the first attempt. One cube wasn't sufficent, it was destroyed. The Federation has no means to destroy multiple cubes. Therefore, taking circumstances into account, sending more than one cube would work. It's not about panic, it's about sending the proper amount of forces and not forming schemes that would make a James Bond villain blush.

[Robert Walper]

It's no exaggeration, both times were complete objective failures and both cubes were lost with all hands. It's not a matter of panicking, it's a matter of guaranteeing success. The Federation could barely destroy one cube. It would have been completely justifiable to send five then, because objectively, the Federation would have no way to defeat all of them.

First off, there are no such thing as absolute guarantees. From the Borg's perspective, the single cube in the first attack "guaranteed" success. Similar in nature to how the Death Star "guaranteed" success against the rebellion.

Actually, the Empire did the right thing, they built a second, much bigger, Death Star that didn't have the same exploitable weakness that the original Death Star did. Had it have been finished, the Rebels wouldn't have been able to do squat about it.

And the Borg sent another cube without the weakness of a Locutus Borg hacking attempt to stop it. They addressed the issue that prevented victory the last time, therefore they had every reason to expect success the second time.

Both attacks failed due to special circumstances. It is very important to note both attacks failed by different special circumstances. This was made quite clear. And frankly, the Borg had changed their tactics. Notice that no other single cube attacks were sent, and that by STVOY "Endgame", the Borg had deployed a transwarp hub conduit less than a lightyear from Earth. They could have virtually sent an entire fleet to assimilate Earth utilizing this surprise attack with virtually no warning.

And did they?

War with Species 8472, dealing with a Voyager assisted Borg "revolt", one Transwarp Hub destroyed, rebuilding their fleets and infrastructure, etc. They had bigger fish to fry at that time. I find it hard to believe anyone would suggest the Borg would consider the Federation a high priority when they have other much more important tasks to deal with.

It should have never come to that. The Borg didn't have the brains to send more than one cube the second time around, even though that would have completely guaranteed their success.

They are driven by efficency. By all rights, a single Borg cube can defeat the Federation. The first failure a was fluke as far as I'm concerned, and the second failure is when I would suggest altering their stradegy would be necessary. And they did.

*skipping time travel section*

No, my premise takes into account the undisputable facts about the first attempt. One cube wasn't sufficent, it was destroyed.

By a scenario so circumstantial I'd never argue it as a practical method by which to gauge the cube's effectiveness against the Federation.

The Federation has no means to destroy multiple cubes. Therefore, taking circumstances into account, sending more than one cube would work.

Yes, sending more than one cube should work...assuming no more highly improbable scenario's working in favor of the Federation. However, more than one cube isn't necessary.

It's not about panic, it's about sending the proper amount of forces and not forming schemes that would make a James Bond villain blush.

One cube against the Federation by all practical measures is sufficent to assimilate it. The first failure was a fluke, the second failure determined the Federation's defensive measures being questionably adaquate to deal with a single cube. After that they changed tactics.

[Sharp-kun]

However, more than one cube isn't necessary.

Yet "hundreds" are necessary for a single world?

[Solauren]

<snippity-do-for-space>

That doesn't jive with First Contact where the Borg's Evil Scheme involved jumping back to the middle of the 21st century -- back before Earth had any real tech at all -- to try to prevent first contact and assimilate the planet. They'd lose any tech the Federation would have gained that way.

Isn't that what I said?

Actually, it does. Think about it.

What was the most advanced ship in the Federation Fleet?
NCC1701E
They jumped close enough NCC1701E got sucked into the time vortex, when they could have aimed away from it.

They jump back in time, bring the best of the Federations tech with them (and Pichard/Locutus and Data no less), in a situation where NCC1701E has no outside help.

That was actually a rather intelligent stratergy if you look at what would have happend if they Borg had succeeded.

had the Borg succeeded

Consider if the Borg had succeeded

1- They net the UFPs most advanced technology (NCC1701E and Data) and the Queen gets Loctus of Borg back.
2- The prevent the birth of the UFP, and therefore leave the Romulans and Klingons in a perpetual state of war. They also delete Voyager from time.
3- The contact the Borg in that time, and the Queen goes 'okay, time for a major technology boast.'. The 21st century Borg just assimilated the 24th century Borg knowledge.
Imagine the Borg rampaging around with that level of technology 300 years early.

[Gil Hamilton]

<snippity-do>

The Enterprise wasn't sucked into the time vortex, though. It followed the sphere though. The sphere jumping to the past near the Enterprise was a coincidence, and it probably couldn't have dodged away. After all, Borg spheres aren't exactly well armed considering they did the equivlent of dropping hand grenades on the Phoenix camp and was destroyed in on volley from the Enterprise.

[Robert Walper]

However, more than one cube isn't necessary.

Yet "hundreds" are necessary for a single world?

I take it you're referring to STVOY "Hope and Fear". Hint: That wasn't the Federation, which is what I'm talking about.

[Luzifer's right hand]

snip.

We know from Voyager that the Borg desire "Omega particles".
It seems every captain knows about it, however it's unlikely that a starfleet captain has more than rudimentary knowledge about the particles and that crucial information about it is stored in the computer of a starfleet ship.

If there is a place where everything the Federation knows about omega particle is available, it's 24th century Earth.

[Sharp-kun]

However, more than one cube isn't necessary.

Yet "hundreds" are necessary for a single world?

I take it you're referring to STVOY "Hope and Fear". Hint: That wasn't the Federation, which is what I'm talking about.

From what we see though, they didn't seem 100 times a greater problem.

[Trogdor]

In all fairness, there's a TNG episode where we see that the Borg succeeded (the first time around) in assimilating the Feds in an alternate dimension. I can't remember the episode name, but it was the one where Worf randomly starts flipping through dimensions. The Bajorans, who'd broken free of the Cardies in one dimension, accidentally messed with the anomaly that caused Worf to keep flipping and all these enterprises started appearing. When they try to set everything straight, one enterprise tried to stop them, because they didn't want to go back to a dimension where the Borg had conquered everything.

Of course, that only happened with one Enterprise out of what looked like hundreds. The Borg could've been successful in many other dimensions and blown the Enterprise, but that can't be proved. So, the Borg had confirmed success in one out of a near infinity of dimensions.

[Robert Walper]

From what we see though, they didn't seem 100 times a greater problem.

We saw one ship from that race with Quantum Slipstream drive. I hardly consider that a reliable source from which to base their previously existing military strength and infrastructure.

This large scale attack took place right after the Species 8472 war, so it's not surprising the Borg would do so to build up their own significantly damaged infrastructure. Species 8472 destroyed hundreds of Borg worlds and thousands of Borg vessels. Obviously the Borg would want to build up again as quickly as possible, and species 116 possessed enough resources to justify a large scale assault.

[Robert Walper]

<snippity-do>

The Enterprise wasn't sucked into the time vortex, though. It followed the sphere though. The sphere jumping to the past near the Enterprise was a coincidence, and it probably couldn't have dodged away. After all, Borg spheres aren't exactly well armed considering they did the equivlent of dropping hand grenades on the Phoenix camp and was destroyed in on volley from the Enterprise.

First, the Borg should be familar with their own technology, so it isn't exactly a leap of logic to suggest they'd be aware of a temporal wake behind their vessel. My conclusion is that the sphere actually waited for the Enterprise to be within range to be caught by it. This would ensure that they follow.

Second, the Borg sphere from ST:FC was 600 meters in diameter. The Borg sphere from STVOY "Drone" was also 600 meters in diameter. This is the same sphere that was slapping Voyager around easily, even with it's "enhanced" defensive systems. Rather than assuming these two spheres are vastly different in design in capabilities, I chose the simpler explanation that the ST:FC sphere was merely drained from creating the temporal vortex.

The Borg sphere, assuming it could, obliterating the planetary surface to destroy the first warp ship would not have accomplished the goal of delaying the Enterprise to investigate. As Picard noted, "They knew their ship was doomed, our shields were down. First they'll assimilate the Enterprise, then Earth."

My conclusion was that the Enterprise was in fact an objective in their time travel assault. They got the best technology the Federation could put together without having to deal with an entire Federation. Had they succeeded, they would have got, pardon the pun, the "best of both worlds" so to speak. Rather efficient actually.

[Robert Walper]

snip.

We know from Voyager that the Borg desire "Omega particles".
It seems every captain knows about it, however it's unlikely that a starfleet captain has more than rudimentary knowledge about the particles and that crucial information about it is stored in the computer of a starfleet ship.

If there is a place where everything the Federation knows about omega particle is available, it's 24th century Earth.

Since one of Starfleet's highest priorities is to destroy the Omega particle rather than study them, their contribution to the knowledge about Omega particles would be next to useless.

[Luzifer's right hand]

snip.

We know from Voyager that the Borg desire "Omega particles".
It seems every captain knows about it, however it's unlikely that a starfleet captain has more than rudimentary knowledge about the particles and that crucial information about it is stored in the computer of a starfleet ship.

If there is a place where everything the Federation knows about omega particle is available, it's 24th century Earth.

Since one of Starfleet's highest priorities is to destroy the Omega particle rather than study them, their contribution to the knowledge about Omega particles would be next to useless.

That they are trying to destroy omega particles and related knowledge owned by other civilizations does not mean that they don't know much about it.

lets reword your text

The USA are trying to prevent the development of biological in other countries, they try to destroy(or seize) equipment and information crucial for the development of biological weapons. They stopped their own program for offensive biological weapon years ago.

Since one of the United States highest priorities is to destroy Biological weapons rather than study them, their contribution to the knowledge about biological weapon would be next to useless.

[SirNitram]

An odd little thought. Maybe they don't hit the Federation because the Federation(And, by necessity of the medium we see the Trek universe through, us) has been duped. Big time.

Facts, learned from the Borg, not anywhere else:
Scorpion:
Species 8472 has attacked the Borg around a dozen times over the past 5 months, which averages to less than one attack every 1½ weeks.

The Borg expected to be defeated in another few weeks at this rate.

Borg VoiceOver from the second part:

Species 8472 has penetrated Matrix 010, Grid 19. 8 planets destroyed. 312 vessels disabled. Four million six hundred twenty one Borg eliminated. We must seize control of the Alpha Quadrant vessel and take it into the alien realm.

We'll give this every peice of leniency and give room we can.

The following assumptions made:

The Borg statements during Scorpion are reliable.

The bodycount is per attack not total.

The attack tempo doesn't change.

That by 'Defeated' the Borg will half lost half their holdings and be in a sufficient bind that other races will smell blood.

That 'a few weeks' is 10 weeks or so, enough time for eight more attacks.


By these estimations, the Borg control (8 worlds x 20 attacks x 2..) 320 worlds(Habitable? Presumably), (312 ships x 20 attacks x2..) ~12,000 ships, and somewhat less than 2 billion Drones.

Keep in mind, this isn't based off of Joe Schmoe's dialogue in the Enterprise millions of miles from the Borg. This is the Borg themselves.

Humanity got duped bad.

[The Yosemite Bear]

lol

Watching Formula 51, and realizig that the borg have more in common with corprate raiders, and microsith empire.

They are powerful because they say they are.

[Robert Walper]

We know from Voyager that the Borg desire "Omega particles".
It seems every captain knows about it, however it's unlikely that a starfleet captain has more than rudimentary knowledge about the particles and that crucial information about it is stored in the computer of a starfleet ship.

If there is a place where everything the Federation knows about omega particle is available, it's 24th century Earth.

Since one of Starfleet's highest priorities is to destroy the Omega particle rather than study them, their contribution to the knowledge about Omega particles would be next to useless.

That they are trying to destroy omega particles and related knowledge owned by other civilizations does not mean that they don't know much about it.

lets reword your text

The USA are trying to prevent the development of biological in other countries, they try to destroy(or seize) equipment and information crucial for the development of biological weapons. They stopped their own program for offensive biological weapon years ago.

Since one of the United States highest priorities is to destroy Biological weapons rather than study them, their contribution to the knowledge about biological weapon would be next to useless.

I see a few problems with that analogy. First off, the US has "perfected"(we'll use the term loosely) their biological weapons capability. The Federation has done no such thing with the Omerga particle. In fact, their knowledge is so limited that Voyager had difficulty just figuring out how to get rid of them. They even got Seven of Nine to design and construct a chamber specifically for the task, which was dependent upon her own superior knowledge of the Omega particle. Overall, I don't think the Federation has much in the way of unique knowledge about the Omega particle.

[Robert Walper]

An odd little thought. Maybe they don't hit the Federation because the Federation(And, by necessity of the medium we see the Trek universe through, us) has been duped. Big time.

Facts, learned from the Borg, not anywhere else:
Scorpion:
Species 8472 has attacked the Borg around a dozen times over the past 5 months, which averages to less than one attack every 1½ weeks.

Correction. Tuvok stated that Species 8472 have attacked the Borg, quote "on at least a dozen occasions". This suggests a lower limit on the number of times the Borg and Species 8472 had major confrontations.

The Borg expected to be defeated in another few weeks at this rate.

Borg VoiceOver from the second part:

Species 8472 has penetrated Matrix 010, Grid 19. 8 planets destroyed. 312 vessels disabled. Four million six hundred twenty one Borg eliminated. We must seize control of the Alpha Quadrant vessel and take it into the alien realm.

We'll give this every peice of leniency and give room we can.

The following assumptions made:

The Borg statements during Scorpion are reliable.

The bodycount is per attack not total.

Additonal evidence obviously suggests the only logical conclusion is that this in fact the casualty report from only that single battle. Eight planets were destroyed. But according to Seven of Nine in STVOY "Prey", Species 8472 destroyed hundreds of worlds. This would suggest a minimum of 200 planets destroyed in total, and in all likelyhood similar to the observed planetary destruction witnessed in STVOY "Scorpion".

The attack tempo doesn't change.

You're making the assumption that the battle report you mentioned was the largest scale battle to date. This assumption is flawed based upon evidence from STVOY "Prey" which I specified. The Borg's own behavior (ie: negotiating with Voyager) suggests they had already suffered major casualties, to the point where they would be willing to negotiate which they do not typically do. One could even easily argue the fleet numbers might have been low due to previous damage done by Species 8472.

That by 'Defeated' the Borg will half lost half their holdings and be in a sufficient bind that other races will smell blood.

That 'a few weeks' is 10 weeks or so, enough time for eight more attacks.

You're ignoring the possibility that Species 8472 may have been stepping up the frequency of their attacks. This would hardly be surprising for a enemy that is currently winning.

By these estimations, the Borg control (8 worlds x 20 attacks x 2..) 320 worlds(Habitable? Presumably),

According to the Borg, they control thousands of worlds and thousands of species(ref ST:FC, STVOY "Scorpion"). I see absolutely no evidence to contradict this assertion on their part.

(312 ships x 20 attacks x2..) ~12,000 ships, and somewhat less than 2 billion Drones.

Direct sensor scans of the Borg unicomplex detected trillions of Borg. This doesn't count their planetary populations, and Earth(when it was assimilated in an alternate timeline) numbered up to nine billion alone. Multiply that by thousands, and your number is grossly inaccurate, never mind the Unicomplex.

Keep in mind, this isn't based off of Joe Schmoe's dialogue in the Enterprise millions of miles from the Borg. This is the Borg themselves.

Humanity got duped bad.

Seriously, I fail to see your point. Frankly, none of your conjecture(based solely upon one piece of badly interpreted dialogue) has any factual or believeable basis, and is refuted by multiple sources of objective data.

[Chris OFarrell]

Just for kicks, the quote from Prey about destruction in the 8472 - Borg war was:

Tuvok: "Since species 8472 invaded the ship you've become increasingly agitated"

Seven: "They were the only species to offer true resistance to the Borg. They destroyed millions of drones hundreds of our worlds. I have reason to be agitated."

[Robert Walper]

Just for kicks, the quote from Prey about destruction in the 8472 - Borg war was:

Tuvok: "Since species 8472 invaded the ship you've become increasingly agitated"

Seven: "They were the only species to offer true resistance to the Borg. They destroyed millions of drones hundreds of our worlds. I have reason to be agitated."

You're supporting evidence is appreciated.

[Luzifer's right hand]

snip

I see a few problems with that analogy. First off, the US has "perfected"(we'll use the term loosely) their biological weapons capability. The Federation has done no such thing with the Omerga particle. In fact, their knowledge is so limited that Voyager had difficulty just figuring out how to get rid of them. They even got Seven of Nine to design and construct a chamber specifically for the task, which was dependent upon her own superior knowledge of the Omega particle. Overall, I don't think the Federation has much in the way of unique knowledge about the Omega particle.

I think my analogy is quite good

Prove your claim that the USA have "perfected" their biological weapons capability.
Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production and Stockpiling of Bacteriological (Biological) and Toxin Weapons and on Their Destruction
The USA claim that they have no biological weapons capability. Soviet scientist and agents came to the same conclusion. Please show us the information you obtained.

It proves nothing that the Federation has not weapon system based on Omega Particles.

A research station was destroyed with omega particles, they what destroyed the station which makes it impossible that the lost every information about the particles.
They can detect and identify subspace anomalies caused by omega particles. They know much about the capabilities and dangerousness of the omega particle.
It rests with you to prove that the knowledge of the Federation about the Omega particle is next to useless for the Borg.

[Luzifer's right hand]

Just for kicks, the quote from Prey about destruction in the 8472 - Borg war was:

Tuvok: "Since species 8472 invaded the ship you've become increasingly agitated"

Seven: "They were the only species to offer true resistance to the Borg. They destroyed millions of drones hundreds of our worlds. I have reason to be agitated."

You're supporting evidence is appreciated.

They destroyed "hundreds of our worlds" but only "millions of drones"?

Species 8472 has penetrated Matrix 010, Grid 19. 8 planets destroyed. 312 vessels disabled. Four million six hundred twenty one Borg eliminated. We must seize control of the Alpha Quadrant vessel and take it into the alien realm.

8 planets destroyed and only 4 million Borg eliminated.

To assume that every borg world is inhabited by large numbers of drones is wrong. The only Borg planet we know about with large numbers of drones on it was assimilated earth.
And you assume that most of the vessels destroyed are cubes, it's much more likely that many small ships with only a few hundred or thousend drones on board are included.

It's quite possible that most Borg planets are small outposts with only a few hundredthousand drones on them. This conclusion is supportede by the fact that only millions of drones died when hundreds of planets were destroed.
Please provide evidence for your claim that there are large numbers of Borg drones outside the Unicomplex.

[Sarevok]

They destroyed "hundreds of our worlds" but only "millions of drones"?

Perhaps it meant drones lost aboard destroyed Cubes. But I think you are correct. Many Borg planets are lightly populated.