Enterprise 1/14

[Broomstick]

Bullshit. The motive of the invading group has exactly zero relevance to the issue of whether or not two ostensibly different scripts follow the same plot template point-for-point. And the macroscopic virus episode was never one I was citing as an example of anything, so I've no idea what point you think you're making by mentioning it at all.

So... um... if you dislike the show so intensely - you know, rehashed plots, alien-of-the-week (mainly differing in knobby bits from other AotW) - why do you watch it?

[Admiral_K]

B & B seem to think that humans are the pinnacle of technology in Trek. Look at Voyager. Now we're seeing it in ENT.

Actually, they usually get their ass handed to them on Ent.

[Rubberanvil]

In fairness, though, we don't know how long their conflict was waged. Since the nuts were gone for, what, 8 months?, the war might've gone on for awhile *shrugs*.

It was mentioned several times during the epsiode the war been fought for over a century.

That, and it is a bit much to expect fanatics in question might otherwise be reasonable

The whole war is fought over how many days the creators created everything.

[Broomstick]

If I recall my history correctly, the Russians at one point divided into two factions, one of the "major" differences being whether one made the sign of the cross with two fingers or three, and the dispute dragged on for decades and got quite bloody, which each side screaming "heretic" at the other. (I do not recall all the details at this point)

So really, people killing each other over fine points of doctrine - such as whether creation took 9 days or 10 - has precedent.

I'm sure you could find other such situations, which look equally ludicrous to the outsider, if you looked closely enough at history.

Yes, it was a morality tale about the destructiveness of fanatacism, and that's what brought to mind LTBYLBF from the old series, not "plot points" as Patrick Degan keeps bringing up. In fact, with his insistance that it does NOT resemble LTBYLBF he misses the larger point being made. He's not seeing the forest for the trees. Sure, the aliens take over the ship, THAT's a tired plot device, but --

- The alien leader genuinely believes what he is doing is for the greater good, and the salvation of those he victimizes, both among his own and among the Enterprise crew. He is NOT doing this for personal profit.

- The parallel between the suicide bombers with an "internal", "organic" explosive and those folks in our current world who strap on C4 and blow themselves up would seem to be inescapble - has there been another "take over the ship" episode where the aliens blew themselves up to accomplish that goal?

- Using the transporter for Archer's fake execution was certainly new - and would not likely have worked in later series.

- And yes, the final scene of utter devastation is very different from the ending of most "take over the ship" episodes, and really does bring to mind LTBYLBF for any fan of the old series.

I'm not denying there's some re-hashing of plot devices, and similarities to other episodes. And certainly, in grand ST fashion certain details are skipped over (like an exact timeline for the war) but ST is not a documentary, it's story-telling. The object is to say/show what's important to the author's main point, not necessarially to go into exacting detail. You might as well bitch that the aliens knew perfect English without need of a universal translator and how the hell did that happen again?

Or maybe I just have enough of a life that I don't get my knickers in a twist over minute details in what is basically intended to be entertainment. I enjoy discussing plot holes and goofs and nice details and plot twists, but I don't see the point in getting into a lather about it.

[seanrobertson]

It was mentioned several times during the epsiode the war been fought for over a century.

You misunderstood me. I was talking about the period of time in which that planet's major cities were destroyed.

That was definitely 8 months or less, given the lead fanatic's utter shock at the devastation he witnessed at the end.

The whole war is fought over how many days the creators created everything.

? Yes, 9 days v. 10. What lead you to think I didn't know that, specifically?

For a second time, I was talking about why the fanatics felt it necessary to capture the NX-01. They went out in space expressly to find a ship, one which they'd use to eradicate the 10 Day people, no?

Okay, then: when your race conceived, and probably already has, weapons of mass destruction, why go off in the hope of finding a powerful alien starship that you might never find?

The WOMDs were clearly available to the religious zealots--how else were the major cities turned to rubble?--so the pirates we saw went about their quest in an overly-complicated manner, to say the least.

That's why I said it's a bit much to expect great reasoning from such people.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Saw this episode last night. Have to say I liked it. I thought the difference in how many days it took create the Spheres was a good point to illustrate how stupid fundies are.

I wish they'd polish some of the fighting. Why oh why does the female MACO have to go hand-to-hand? Do they have something to prove?
Minor pet peeve for an otherwise acceptable show.

[Enola Straight]

Wasn't there a little sub-plot of the wife who wanted to terminate the pregnancy so the Religeous Leader wouldn't have another soldier in his jihad?

Ended up being too far along to abort...she's not showing yet, but Phlox can't...oh, I dunno, perform a partial birth brain vaccuum thing.

Anyway, the sub-plot was a dead end.


Also, Archer was slightly dismayed at The Leader for erasing the map of the Spheres...probably didn't save his data to disk.

No problem...should be easy to re-map the spheres once they come across another spatial distortion.

[Patrick Degan]

I'm baack...

In LTBYLB, the racial conflict between the two sides of that cultural divide was fought out directly aboard the Enterprise by the two guest characters. The mob who invade this watered-down version of the Enterprise in this outing could be replaced by any group of monolithic cartoon aliens-of-the-week running on whatever motivation happens to fit. They're nothing but the plot-drivers and nothing more than that. The script's borrowing of the climactic twist from LTBYLB adds no more significance than if the aliens were knobby-headed profiteers instead of knobby-headed religious fanatics or if their skin was purple with yellow polka-dots instead of black on one side and white on the other.

Please, we get the setup of what the characters think, the ship is hijacked, they fight and then discover their planet.

And that makes a valid comparison with LTBYLB? On that rather thin sort of logic, we can as easily argue that "The Neutral Zone" is the TNG remake of "Balance Of Terror".

The only difference is that the fight with the other side is a ship to ship fight instead of a TK alien powers slugfest and that Archer reclaims his ship through force instead of waiting for the aliens to leave.

Same as "Rascals". Same as "Basics". Template scripts. The actual details of invading alien group and motivations are irrelevant. And the "TK slugfest" took up only two brief scenes, as did the two very temporary seizures of control of the Enterprise in the original which shares only its twist ending with "Chosen Realm" and nothing more.

Nice little Red Herring. Ignoring the point does not make it vanish, no matter how much you wish it did.

I didn't ignore your point, your point is that ship captured episodes are generic with minor differences being inconsequential, I pointed out that if true then obviously Chosen realm is cut from the same cloth as LTBYLB.

Denying a Red Herring fallacy by putting forth a Strawman fallacy. Cute.

That is indeed an Appeal to Popularity. Who the fuck do you think you're kidding? "Everybody else sees it my way, therefore you're wrong" is what that boils down to —nevermind that you really cannot know just what "the whole Trek community" actually thinks.

You stated I was wrong, I stated myself and others didn't think so I did not however use this fact as a defence of my argument, just as your statement of your view point as fact hardly served to aid your cause.

And that little bullshit contortion serves your argument how, exactly? You can't unsay what you said, no matter what semantical games you try to engage in. Particularly ones which don't answer the question at hand.

Man of Straw. I defy you to actually quote me where I say "every ship-takeover episode from TOS onward is the same". Actual quotes, Darkling —not your little bullshit imaginings about my words or items taken out of context.

No you just believe TNG onwards and as I have pointed out the common elements you see in all TNG+ cookie cutter take over episodes also exist in the TOS take over episodes, just because your argument is idiotic and I am pointing that fact out doesn't mean I am distorting your argument only that I am presenting it for what it truly is.

BULLSHIT

You were challenged to produce an actual quote of mine. I will say it again: I defy you to actually quote me where I say "every ship-takeover episode from TOS onward is the same". Actual quotes, Darkling —not your little bullshit imaginings about my words or items taken out of context. Either answer as specified, or admit you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

The comeback was worth exactly the same level of effort as your pathetic attempt at an insult.

I wasn't insulting you simply explaining my theorising on why exactly you had come up with such an inane argument.

As you wish...

As for your second post - the racial hatred played out was nothing more than both sides explaining their position, the crew thinking it irrational and then some fighting which is exactly what happened Chosen Realm, it however didn't happen in Rascals and Rascals wasn't a little morality tale however these facts seem to have bypassed you.

And you accuse me of putting forth an inane argument? That's comedy.

The crux of the matter is not the ideology, which was central to LTBYLB and merely grafted onto "Chosen Realm". The fact that "Rascals" wasn't ostensibly a morality tale is equally immaterial. The point is that this was a by-the-numbers template script, in which invading alien group and motivations are nothing but plug-in elements. Any moral or ideological issue of the episode in question is facile. The Invading Aliens and their Cause are nothing more than mere plot-devices to justify a bog-standard Ship Under Seige story. Nothing is examined because the Invading Aliens™ are cartoons serving the sole purpose of giving Archer or Janeway, or Picard (or Adm. Nelson and Capt. Crane in any similar Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea script) something to fight against in their already predetermined quest to retake the ship.

Instead of making the the issue a dispute over the number of days of the Creation, the writer could as easily have made it an issue of whether to break eggs at the Big End or the Little End and it would have made no material difference as to the final form of the episode.