GCS vs. 23rd century UFP

[Sharp-kun]

You are assuming a warp core fallacy here. The Galaxy class is the only class of ship observed with these problems and that was only the first flight. While Miranda and Excelsior class ships sustained heavier damage in Dominion war fighting, they were not exploding left and right all the time.

Doesn't really prove anything. Since they'd fixed all the flaws in the early Galaxy's by the time of the war, you'd expect them to have done the same with any starships that used the same design.

[Alyeska]

You are assuming a warp core fallacy here. The Galaxy class is the only class of ship observed with these problems and that was only the first flight. While Miranda and Excelsior class ships sustained heavier damage in Dominion war fighting, they were not exploding left and right all the time.

Doesn't really prove anything. Since they'd fixed all the flaws in the early Galaxy's by the time of the war, you'd expect them to have done the same with any starships that used the same design.

But it does prove something. Tell me, how many other warp core examples do we have in TNG? Tell me, what classes of ships had the hulks remaining at Wolf 359? Those ships took massive abuse and survived. Therefor the Warp Core problem was limited to the Galaxy class and it was eventualy fixed.

[Uraniun235]

You are assuming a warp core fallacy here.

If you were to hit the Ent-A's warp core directly with a torpedo strike, the Ent-A would go BANG because the magnetic containment of the AM would have been ruptured. If the magnetic containment is breached by an outside force, the best possible safeties cannot stop that loose antimatter from reacting with the surrounding matter.

Likewise, if the Lantree's warp core or antimatter pods were ruptured by the torpedo, it should go bang fairly quickly. We're not talking about unrelated damage like a punctured nacelle or hits to Ten-Forward somehow causing a warp core breach, we're talking about the warp core or antimatter pods sustaining a direct hit... which, unlike the other examples, should produce a spectacular explosion.

FYI, the Lantree had no torpedoes to contribute to the explossion as it had no torpedo launcher IIRC. It was one of the Mirandas without a rollbar.

Come on, Alyeska. You know Starfleet starships don't carry live ordnance; the torpedo reactants are loaded onto the torpedo from the ship when it's loaded into the tubes.

I really can't see what purpose this simulation would have served for the E-D to fight a barely functioning starship though.

As a wargame, the exercise was retarded beyond comprehension: there really is nothing to be gained in terms of tactical or strategic experience or knowledge by pitting a relatively inexperienced officer against a man with years of starship command experience, and then giving said officer an "80-year old star cruiser" (with which he is unfamiliar) to take on the Federation's most powerful starship. As a test of Riker's character (perhaps they no longer practice the Kobayashi Maru test in Starfleet Academy?) as a precursor to grooming him for command of his own starship, it might fly, but that's not what Picard was told... and besides, surely Starfleet has more conventional methods of testing it's command candidates than diverting a major starship from it's duties just so it can toy around with a hulk of a starship.

The wargame, in the form Starfleet executed, would have been carried out far better by having Picard and Riker run battle drills against each other simply using the two bridges aboard the Enterprise... not only would it have eliminated those silly and apparently badly designed weapon hacks that crippled the Enterprise against the Ferengi, but it would also have given them a much more even playing field as the bridges could each be configured to simulate a full Galaxy-class starship and all officers involved would be already highly intimate with their commands.

[Darth Wong]

But it does prove something. Tell me, how many other warp core examples do we have in TNG? Tell me, what classes of ships had the hulks remaining at Wolf 359? Those ships took massive abuse and survived. Therefor the Warp Core problem was limited to the Galaxy class and it was eventualy fixed.

By your logic, the E-D's weapons are more powerful than those of a Borg Cube. Right there, the fallacy becomes obvious.

Catastrophic failures from poorly designed systems are not reliable. They are random by their very nature. Not every single Pinto which was rear-ended went up like a Roman candle.

[Patrick Degan]

The destruction of the Lantree is not definitive; a plague ship, she was struck at relatively close range in her engineering section and with no shields rigged. Also, similar conditions were extant in the destruction of the USS Grissom over Genesis by Kruge's BOP in TSFS —unshielded vessel struck at close range in her most vulnerable section.

Not by any means evidence that the 23rd century Starfleet is "fucked" v. one lone GCS.

[Sarevok]

Star Trek VI:

Changs BoP takes several torpedo hits before being destroyed. IIRC it was a total of five. The first one hitting the ship directly in front.

Generations:

Only one torpedo is needed to destroy Lursa and her sisters BoP.

EDIT* I just remembered Riker ordered the warp core targeted. I withdraw this example.

I might also add that the increased torpedo yield has been accompanied by improved shields. In "Equinox" Voyger fires five photon torpedoes into the Equinoxes aft shield but fails to collapse them. The Equinox was a badly armed tiny science ship half the size of Voyger and most of her crew were killed and systems damaged by the time Voyger found her in a crippled state.

In ST6 just a handful of torpedoes were enough to collapse shields and blow holes through the Enterprises sacuer section. This indicates superior torps to shield ration in the TNG era Federation.

[Stark]

Where are the armour belts on Fed ships? I bring it up because Lantree was indeed a stripped-out science version of a Miranda, so it's always possible they stripped out the armour box around many systems to reduce mass.

Honestly, I see these disparities as quite realistic. In naval battles, sometimes great ships go down with one lucky(unlucky) hit, and other times they fight on until demolished. Given the 'blue touch paper' qualities in antimatter storage, I think any ship firing from advantage (like cloaked, heavily shielded etc) would always go for a kill shot. Against shielded, maneuvering, relatively equal ships, this doesn't work, because of combat factors.

[Stark]

In ST6 just a handful of torpedoes were enough to collapse shields and blow holes through the Enterprises sacuer section. This indicates superior torps to shield ration in the TNG era Federation.

In Yesterday's Enterprise K'Vorts (larger and presumably at least equal to Voyager) were destroyed by 5-7 torps and sundry phasers, so this isn't conclusive, particularly with reference to the 100-yo klingon ship heavily damaging Voyager without having to use dozens of torpedoes.

[Metrion Cascade]

About the Lantree incident - haven't we seen the GCS fire what looks like one torpedo, but then splits into multiple sparkly red things as if the first shot were multiple torpedoes strapped together or something? Maybe what looked like one torpedo hitting the Lantree was more like five or six.

[Col. Crackpot]

The reliant was repeatedly struck by TOS era weaponry, without shields in the engineering section.


Kahn's Minion #1: "Our shields are dropping!"
Kahn: "Raise them!"
Kahn's Minion #1:"I can't!"

<<insert a half dozen pahser hits to the engineering section here>>
<< consoles spark, shit blows up on bridge, Ricardo Montalbahn gets really pissed off>>>

Kahn: "Return fire" (or something to that affect)
Kahn's Minion #1:""we must withdraw! they've hit the warp drive and the photon control"

furthermore towards the end of the final battle the Reliant took at least 2 photon hits (maybe 3) to its starboard (? or port dont remember which exactly) warp nacelle which succeed in first blasting through the warp coils and then blowing it clean off the pylon.

Those bare hull torpedo hits were taken after several minutes of sustained combat, and moderate damage from a previous engagement. The yield appears smaller that the torpedos fired by the E-D in the Borg inncident (there is no massive cloud of engulfing fire) But i must add this caveat the E-D was destroyed by minor disruptor hits to it's nacelle the showed little external damage.

[TurboPhaser]

That's fucking retarded. Did someone physically remove all of the ship's antimatter and torpedoes? If not, then it is impossible for that inventory not to contribute energy to the explosion, therefore it is impossible for the entire energy of the blast to come from the E-D's photorp.

Of course its possible, Im just saying it may not have been that way. I don't know if its the right ep or not, but wasnt that ships engines totally non-functional? If so, then the antimatter pods and warp core may not be involved.
If they were, then the destruction of the Lantree was out of line with every other warp core breach/antimatter engine object explosion we've ever seen.
Generations, Voyager 'Equinox Pt 2' both showed warp core explosions. they were far, far bigger and more powerfull than the Lantree explosion.

And you base this judgement on ...?

On the fact that that Cube was about 4 KM wide, and the torps explosions covered roughly half that. And the fact that Miranda class ships are some 200 metres in length. I imagine one of those torps hitting an unsheilded ship that size would destroy it.

[Sharp-kun]

Of course its possible, Im just saying it may not have been that way. I don't know if its the right ep or not, but wasnt that ships engines totally non-functional? If so, then the antimatter pods and warp core may not be involved.

Even if the engines didn't work, the anti-matter is still there, breach the containment and boom.

[TurboPhaser]

Of course its possible, Im just saying it may not have been that way. I don't know if its the right ep or not, but wasnt that ships engines totally non-functional? If so, then the antimatter pods and warp core may not be involved.

Even if the engines didn't work, the anti-matter is still there, breach the containment and boom.

I meant by 'not functional' that the engine reserves were completley drained. But again, i'm not sure it it was the right ep.

[Patrick Degan]

The reliant was repeatedly struck by TOS era weaponry, without shields in the engineering section.


Kahn's Minion #1: "Our shields are dropping!"
Kahn: "Raise them!"
Kahn's Minion #1:"I can't!"

<<insert a half dozen pahser hits to the engineering section here>>
<< consoles spark, shit blows up on bridge, Ricardo Montalbahn gets really pissed off>>>

Kahn: "Return fire" (or something to that affect)
Kahn's Minion #1:""we must withdraw! they've hit the warp drive and the photon control"

furthermore towards the end of the final battle the Reliant took at least 2 photon hits (maybe 3) to its starboard (? or port dont remember which exactly) warp nacelle which succeed in first blasting through the warp coils and then blowing it clean off the pylon.

Those bare hull torpedo hits were taken after several minutes of sustained combat, and moderate damage from a previous engagement. The yield appears smaller that the torpedos fired by the E-D in the Borg inncident (there is no massive cloud of engulfing fire) But i must add this caveat the E-D was destroyed by minor disruptor hits to it's nacelle the showed little external damage.

Two caveats: in the first combat, the Enterprise's own phasers were depleted and could not be used to maximum effect; also, none of the hits scored by Sulu directly struck the impulse drive engine. In the Mutara Nebula battle, photorps were used by the Enterprise only when striking the Reliant's external photorp launcher and to blow off the one warp nacelle. Again, none of those hits struck the core of the engineering section.

In the destruction of the Enterprise-D over Veridian, the culprit appears far more to have been already existing engineering defects exascerbated by the damage inflicted by Klingon disruptor hits, none of which struck a vital area. A properly designed and built ship would not have proven so fragile.

[Col. Crackpot]

Two caveats: in the first combat, the Enterprise's own phasers were depleted and could not be used to maximum effect; also, none of the hits scored by Sulu directly struck the impulse drive engine. In the Mutara Nebula battle, photorps were used by the Enterprise only when striking the Reliant's external photorp launcher and to blow off the one warp nacelle. Again, none of those hits struck the core of the engineering section.

i will not dispute your number of photons used, but i feel the manner in which they were employed may be quite useful in determining their apparant yield. The (2 or 3) torps that hit the nacelle assembly and the (2) torps that hit the photon launcher were quite obviously bare hull hits. They did not detonate until they phsically came in contact with the Reliant, and we know through dialouge that shields were completely useless in the Mutara nebula. So that is at least 4 (or possibly 5) direct torpedo hits on the USS Reliant. There also appeared to be secondary explosions in the Reliants torpedo pod which suggest that it may have been loaded and ready to fire. That theory is however suspect and up for scrutiny, so feel free to pick away at it. What does this tell us? 4 or 5 torpedos from an upgraded Constitution class starship were not enough to destroy an unshielded Miranda class starship, even with 2 (or 3) direct hits to the warp drive. 1 direct torpedo hit from a Galaxy Class starship has enough power to destroy an unshileded Miranda-class variant (possibly a result of hitting the warp drive) Therefore the one torpedo fired by the E-D > One torpedo fired by the E-nil

[Iceberg]

The only explanation I can give is that Reliant was rigged for battle but Lantree wasn't.

[Ted C]

The only explanation I can give is that Reliant was rigged for battle but Lantree wasn't.

Reliant was attacked by a badly damaged starship which had neither warp power nor impulse power; the Enterprise was down to batteries when its first shots hit the Reliant.

Later, during the fight in the Mutara nebula, both ships were running on impulse power only. Furthermore, their targeting was compromised by dust and static in the nebula.

The battles from TWOK are hardly indicative of normal TOS-era firepower.

[Uraniun235]

4 or 5 torpedos from an upgraded Constitution class starship were not enough to destroy an unshielded Miranda class starship, even with 2 (or 3) direct hits to the warp drive. 1 direct torpedo hit from a Galaxy Class starship has enough power to destroy an unshileded Miranda-class variant (possibly a result of hitting the warp drive) Therefore the one torpedo fired by the E-D > One torpedo fired by the E-nil

Oh, christ.

First, only two torpedoes, total, struck Reliant. One hit the port nacelle, and blasted it off. (Note that the nacelles are NOT the warp core) The other hit the torpedo pod, destroying it.

Second, none of the torpedos that struck Reliant hit the warp reactor core, nor it's antimatter storage pods. The torpedo that struck Lantree quite possibly struck the AM pods or the warp core, because it struck in a location where we'd think the warp core would be located.

[Col. Crackpot]

The only explanation I can give is that Reliant was rigged for battle but Lantree wasn't.

Reliant was attacked by a badly damaged starship which had neither warp power nor impulse power; the Enterprise was down to batteries when its first shots hit the Reliant.

Later, during the fight in the Mutara nebula, both ships were running on impulse power only. Furthermore, their targeting was compromised by dust and static in the nebula.

and that has what to do with torpedo yield?

[Col. Crackpot]

[
Oh, christ.

First, only two torpedoes, total, struck Reliant. One hit the port nacelle, and blasted it off. (Note that the nacelles are NOT the warp core) The other hit the torpedo pod, destroying it.

Second, none of the torpedos that struck Reliant hit the warp reactor core, nor it's antimatter storage pods. The torpedo that struck Lantree quite possibly struck the AM pods or the warp core, because it struck in a location where we'd think the warp core would be located.

WRONG! Those were two seperate volleys. with regards to the Nacelle, the first torpedo smashed through, and the second blew it off it's mount. IT WAS HIT TWICE. As was the torpedo pod. the first hit shreadded it, the second blew it off. go watch the movie.

[Kamakazie Sith]

[
Oh, christ.

First, only two torpedoes, total, struck Reliant. One hit the port nacelle, and blasted it off. (Note that the nacelles are NOT the warp core) The other hit the torpedo pod, destroying it.

Second, none of the torpedos that struck Reliant hit the warp reactor core, nor it's antimatter storage pods. The torpedo that struck Lantree quite possibly struck the AM pods or the warp core, because it struck in a location where we'd think the warp core would be located.

WRONG! Those were two seperate volleys. with regards to the Nacelle, the first torpedo smashed through, and the second blew it off it's mount. IT WAS HIT TWICE. As was the torpedo pod. the first hit shreadded it, the second blew it off. go watch the movie.

No, Uraniun235 is right.

The first torpedo destroys the photon launchers. Phaser fire blows out the warp coils, and then the second torpedo blows the nacell off its pylon.

[Uraniun235]

WRONG! Those were two seperate volleys. with regards to the Nacelle, the first torpedo smashed through, and the second blew it off it's mount. IT WAS HIT TWICE. As was the torpedo pod. the first hit shreadded it, the second blew it off. go watch the movie.

I own the DVD. I just checked. It happened as Kamakazie Sith described.

It is you who needs to watch the movie again.

[Ted C]

Reliant was attacked by a badly damaged starship which had neither warp power nor impulse power; the Enterprise was down to batteries when its first shots hit the Reliant.

Later, during the fight in the Mutara nebula, both ships were running on impulse power only. Furthermore, their targeting was compromised by dust and static in the nebula.

and that has what to do with torpedo yield?

Nothing, really, but the subject of phaser yield has come up in this thread more than once.

[Ted C]

WRONG! Those were two seperate volleys. with regards to the Nacelle, the first torpedo smashed through, and the second blew it off it's mount. IT WAS HIT TWICE. As was the torpedo pod. the first hit shreadded it, the second blew it off. go watch the movie.

Actually, Reliant's nacelle was blown open by a phaser shot then blown off its mount by a subsequent torpedo strike. IIRC, Reliant's torpedo pod was never blown clear off the ship, but it did take a direct hit from a torpedo.

[Col. Crackpot]

WRONG! Those were two seperate volleys. with regards to the Nacelle, the first torpedo smashed through, and the second blew it off it's mount. IT WAS HIT TWICE. As was the torpedo pod. the first hit shreadded it, the second blew it off. go watch the movie.

I own the DVD. I just checked. It happened as Kamakazie Sith described.

It is you who needs to watch the movie again.

i will, because i explicitly remember the nacelle being hit twice