Size/Power/Influence of the Borg Collective?

[SirNitram]

One should note, that in STVOY "Prey", Seven of Nine stated that Species 8472 destroyed "hundreds" of worlds. Using your logic Alyeska, that's between 2 to 9 hundred planetary targets. Since the Borg considered themselves on the verge of defeat within months, and yet were still able to deploy at a bare minimum of 312 vessels to protect a mere 8 planets, then much larger scale battles could have easily been possible which might support the idea of millions of vessels within the Borg armada.

But we still see no fleets that size.

So far as I know, we've never seen thousands of Imperial Stardestroyers either, but we do know they exist. The point being you don't have to physically see the fleets to gauge how large they may be.

This is very much a tangent, but I'll put it like this:

Imperial worlds: 1,000,000.
ISDs: 25,000
ISDs per world: 1/40th.

We should see one ISD per forty worlds. We actually see a hell of alot more.

Claimed Borg worlds: 'Thousands'(Minimum 2000)
Claimed Borg ships: 'Millions'(2,000,000 minimum)
Ships per world if claims are correct: 1,000.

We don't see even close to that, thus we reject the hypothesis.

[Robert Walper]

But we still see no fleets that size.

So far as I know, we've never seen thousands of Imperial Stardestroyers either, but we do know they exist. The point being you don't have to physically see the fleets to gauge how large they may be.

This is very much a tangent, but I'll put it like this:

Imperial worlds: 1,000,000.
ISDs: 25,000
ISDs per world: 1/40th.

We should see one ISD per forty worlds. We actually see a hell of alot more.

Claimed Borg worlds: 'Thousands'(Minimum 2000)
Claimed Borg ships: 'Millions'(2,000,000 minimum)
Ships per world if claims are correct: 1,000.

We don't see even close to that, thus we reject the hypothesis.

In my opinion, this is somewhat faulty logic.

The Borg Collective's civilization structure is significantly different from the Empire's.

-The Empire requires a show of force around their world to keep them in line(despite rebelling anyway). This is because those worlds are not totally controlled by the Empire to the extent Borg ones are, and must be threatened into submission.

-The Borg Collective on the other hand requires no such terror tactics or presence to intimidate their planetary populations. Borg planets are already under total control. Additionally, Borg vessels are spread throughout the entire galaxy(ref: STVOY "Unimatrix Zero"), not just Borg space, never mind just hanging around their own planets. Why would they? They have no need. The Empire on the other hand, does.

Borg vessels being spread throughout the entire Milky Way is going to make their percieved numbers within their own space not as impressive as you're suggesting they should look, so I see no problem.

[SirNitram]

In my opinion, this is somewhat faulty logic.

Show me the flaw in basic mathematics, please. As that's all that's there.

The Borg Collective's civilization structure is significantly different from the Empire's.

-The Empire requires a show of force around their world to keep them in line(despite rebelling anyway). This is because those worlds are not totally controlled by the Empire to the extent Borg ones are, and must be threatened into submission.

Wow, what a complete non-answer. I point out the Empire doesn't even have one ISD over every planet.. You claim they need that sort of thing to keep order. Since 39 of 40 planets were not in open uprising, this is rejected.

-The Borg Collective on the other hand requires no such terror tactics or presence to intimidate their planetary populations. Borg planets are already under total control. Additionally, Borg vessels are spread throughout the entire galaxy(ref: STVOY "Unimatrix Zero"), not just Borg space, never mind just hanging around their own planets. Why would they? They have no need. The Empire on the other hand, does.

You know, this sort of logic would make a wonderful argument against large Borg fleets, because they simply don't need them. Yet the Empire, who you say must do this, has a fleet so small it only needs one supercapital per forty worlds.

Borg vessels being spread throughout the entire Milky Way is going to make their percieved numbers within their own space not as impressive as you're suggesting they should look, so I see no problem.

Yet we have no evidence for large numbers of ships out there. One Cube is all we see in the Alpha Quadrant at a time.. Why, precisely, are we assuming millions in the Beta and Gamma Quadrants, exactly?

This post is a textbook example of shooting yourself in the nads.

[Darth Wong]

In my opinion, this is somewhat faulty logic.

The Borg Collective's civilization structure is significantly different from the Empire's.

-The Empire requires a show of force around their world to keep them in line(despite rebelling anyway). This is because those worlds are not totally controlled by the Empire to the extent Borg ones are, and must be threatened into submission.

-The Borg Collective on the other hand requires no such terror tactics or presence to intimidate their planetary populations. Borg planets are already under total control.

Don't be a dumb-ass. Don't you realize that this only means the Borg are likely to have FEWER starships relative to their territorial holdings, not more? They don't need that many ships. And since we have never observed this hypothetical starship density, it remains nothing more than pure conjecture. The only "evidence" for it is Chakotay's statement, which is also conjecture since he himself had no way of knowing how many ships the Borg had.

Borg vessels being spread throughout the entire Milky Way is going to make their percieved numbers within their own space not as impressive as you're suggesting they should look, so I see no problem.

Except that they're not spread throughout the entire Milky Way, otherwise they would be causing much more havoc than they do. Instead, they have only a handful of scouts in any given area besides their home territory, and even in their home territory they don't have enough ships to truly swarm S8472 fleets (otherwise they could have just rammed them to death; we know from "Scorpion" that this works).

Think about it: the Borg are hemmed in. They border on the territory of the Hirogen, the Voth, the Dominion, and several other groups with strong defensive capabilities. If they were anywhere near as dangerous or numerous as claimed, the Hirogen and Dominion would have been easily overrun, even if we treat the Voth as an unknown.

[Robert Walper]

In my opinion, this is somewhat faulty logic.

Show me the flaw in basic mathematics, please. As that's all that's there.

My bad. My assumption was that you were implying that every Borg world was going to have a thousand craft in orbit or visually distingishable while viewing said worlds.

Wow, what a complete non-answer. I point out the Empire doesn't even have one ISD over every planet.. You claim they need that sort of thing to keep order.

No, they don't need it because they use terror and intimidation tactics to keep poorly defended planets in line. Similar to how a madman with a gun can keep a crowd at bay, even though logically he has significantly less bullets than how many people are in said crowd.

Since 39 of 40 planets were not in open uprising, this is rejected.

That's fear and intimidation working for you.

-The Borg Collective on the other hand requires no such terror tactics or presence to intimidate their planetary populations. Borg planets are already under total control. Additionally, Borg vessels are spread throughout the entire galaxy(ref: STVOY "Unimatrix Zero"), not just Borg space, never mind just hanging around their own planets. Why would they? They have no need. The Empire on the other hand, does.

You know, this sort of logic would make a wonderful argument against large Borg fleets, because they simply don't need them.

Depends on how many vessels the Borg would consider required to deploy throughout the galaxy to chart unexplored space, civilizations and patrolling enemy territory.

Borg vessels being spread throughout the entire Milky Way is going to make their percieved numbers within their own space not as impressive as you're suggesting they should look, so I see no problem.

Yet we have no evidence for large numbers of ships out there. One Cube is all we see in the Alpha Quadrant at a time.

Exactly how have we determined that only one cube has been present at any one time throughout the entire Alph Quadrant?

Why, precisely, are we assuming millions in the Beta and Gamma Quadrants, exactly?

We're not. Millions throughout the entire galaxy. Note: I'm not really holding to this view myself, merely disputing the assertion "Impossible!".

This post is a textbook example of shooting yourself in the nads.

SirNitram, I already agreed with you that millions of cubes under Borg control is an extremely dubious assumption(particularily given the reference source). All I'm saying is that millions could be possible, and I haven't seen evidence that I would consider directly contradicting this assumption. The volume of the Milky Way with a couple of million spacecraft deployed throughout it would be quite a sparse deployment if I'm not mistaken.

[SirNitram]

Basic logic review time.

If you cannot see it, perceive it, or notice it's effects, there is no reason to assume it exists. That is the case with millions of Borg ships. We see no havoc of dozens of Cubes rampaging through the Alpha Quadrant(Much less any signs of any Cubes at all in Beta or Gamma!), and even in their home territory, we don't see the numbers required.

You deliver the precise reason why we shouldn't assume the Borg have more ships than the Galactic Empire: They don't fucking need them.

[Ted C]

SirNitram, I already agreed with you that millions of cubes under Borg control is an extremely dubious assumption(particularily given the reference source). All I'm saying is that millions could be possible, and I haven't seen evidence that I would consider directly contradicting this assumption. The volume of the Milky Way with a couple of million spacecraft deployed throughout it would be quite a sparse deployment if I'm not mistaken.

The problem, Rob, is that the possibility of millions of cubes does not establish the existence of millions of cubes, and people don't really need to contradictory evidence if there's no supporting evidence for the claim. There simply is no indication that the Borg have millions of cubes roaming the Milky Way.

[Solauren]

Indeed. Given there are approximately 400 million stars in the milky way galaxy (don't remember where I saw that, sorry. However, I do know that's the approximate number for the Star Wars galaxy)

A fleet of a million ships would mean 1 per 400 STARS

There is no way in hell the Federation could not have noticed them before Q punted them into Borg territory.

100,000 would mean one per 4000 stars. Given the UFP is only about 150 member planets and maybe 1000 colonies (I personally think its more like 2000 colonies, but that's me) based both on Kirk saying 'On a 1000 worlds and spreading out' and Pichards statement of 150 member worlds. That's a little more feasible given how The Federation never encountered the Borg before. A 1 in 1000 chance of a given star system having a borg cube is pretty slim, given the size of space and the fact that Borg ships probably just dont' sit there trying to get a tan.

10,000 cubes is more likely. That would be about 1 per 40000 stars, and would explain why the Borg are not encountered more often. 40,000 stars is a huge area of space, so it would be easy to ships to avoid notice by them.

[The Third Man]

Given there are approximately 400 million stars in the milky way galaxy

IIRC the currently accepted figures are greater than this by three orders of magnitude. You would have to argue that only one in a thousand stars are of any interest to a space-faring civilization.

[consequences]

Possible prior Borg incursions/encounters:

Nomad

V'Ger

Whoever was destroying Romulan and federation outposts on both sides of the neutral one in TNG season 1