Analysis of the DS9 shapeshifters(the Founders)...

[nightmare]

Masslightening is not a propulsion system, it is just a way to cheat past the increasing mass problem of high relative c velocities. The only way (short of technobabble or magic) I can think of to propel in space without ejecting something, is gravity manipulation - which would also address the mass changeing problem, but see below:

Instead of the shapeshifter increasing/decreasing mass, it would make a lot more sense if they change density - the mass remains the same, but your tiny founder rat would still weigh as much as before. Is there any example of founders actually making themselves lighter without expanding like a ballon?

[Metrion Cascade]

Masslightening is not a propulsion system, it is just a way to cheat past the increasing mass problem of high relative c velocities. The only way (short of technobabble or magic) I can think of to propel in space without ejecting something, is gravity manipulation - which would also address the mass changeing problem, but see below:

Instead of the shapeshifter increasing/decreasing mass, it would make a lot more sense if they change density - the mass remains the same, but your tiny founder rat would still weigh as much as before. Is there any example of founders actually making themselves lighter without expanding like a ballon?

When Odo was turned back into a Founder after some time as a human, he immediately morphed into a hawk and flew about the Promenade in celebration. This could mean two things - he changed rest mass to allow the hawk wings to lift him, or simultaneously increased in density and used mass-lightening.

I suspect he changed rest mass. Mass-lightening uses subspace fields. A bird or rat cannot generate a subspace field with conventional anatomy. We've seen Species 8472 and Gomtuu, which presumably needed some form of mass lightening, meaning some organics can do it. But if Odo uses mass-lightening, the subspace field is detectable (as is any specialized anatomy he creates to do it), ruining the illusion.

[Metrion Cascade]

Well, not really all. There's plenty of detail to supply (like episode names containing specific incidents, for one thing).

"Treachery, Faith, and the Great River", for instance, showed that Odo was worried about freezing to death when he shut down the life support system on his Runabout. Maybe that's just because he didn't know how to shift to a safe form, or maybe it's because all Founders have to assume their liquid state periodically, and they can freeze to death in that form.

"Apocalypse Rising" showed that a Founder can't withstand an unlimited amount of fire from Klingon disruptor pistols.

Was this Runabout crashed on a planet? If so, I remember the episode and Odo wasn't a Founder in that episode. For a while, he was turned human (real human) as punishment for killing another Founder. His human anatomy was in danger of freezing. As a Founder, he floated through space (much colder than any Runabout with air) for years without freezing to death.

As for what kills Founders, I'm thinking mainly energy weapons. Obviously nothing can withstand unlimited disruptor fire. Every Founder death I've seen for which I knew the cause involved energy weapons or constructs. Disruptors in one case, some type of specialized forcefield in another (not a standard forcefield, since we've seen Odo touch those uninjured). The "disease" Section 31 designed can't be a conventional pathogen, since IIRC those work by infecting cells and rewriting DNA, and Founders don't have either.

[Sir Sirius]

Was this Runabout crashed on a planet? If so, I remember the episode and Odo wasn't a Founder in that episode.

No, he was on a Runabout with Weyun, they were hiding in an ice Asteroid from Jem'hadar ships that were searching from them by switching off everything in the Runabout. It's a 7th season episode, Odo had regained his shapeshifting abilities by then. Actualy the episode starts with Odo giving Kira a backrub by turning his hands in amorphous blobs.

*EDIT* It was a 7th season episode, not 5th as I originaly wrote.

[Metrion Cascade]

Was this Runabout crashed on a planet? If so, I remember the episode and Odo wasn't a Founder in that episode.

No, he was on a Runabout with Weyun, they were hiding in an ice Asteroid from Jem'hadar ships that were searching from them by switching off everything in the Runabout. It's a 7th season episode, Odo had regained his shapeshifting abilities by then. Actualy the episode starts with Odo giving Kira a backrub by turning his hands in amorphous blobs.

*EDIT* It was a 7th season episode, not 5th as I originaly wrote.

Then that would contradict earlier episodes. Odo can't freeze to death in a Runabout if he was floating through interstellar space for years and lived. Not only that, but he can change into different materials (even different elements). Most of which would survive in interstellar space. What indications were given that he was worried about himself freezing? There's got to be another way to interpret it.

[Ted C]

"Treachery, Faith, and the Great River", for instance, showed that Odo was worried about freezing to death when he shut down the life support system on his Runabout. Maybe that's just because he didn't know how to shift to a safe form, or maybe it's because all Founders have to assume their liquid state periodically, and they can freeze to death in that form.

Was this Runabout crashed on a planet? If so, I remember the episode and Odo wasn't a Founder in that episode. For a while, he was turned human (real human) as punishment for killing another Founder. His human anatomy was in danger of freezing. As a Founder, he floated through space (much colder than any Runabout with air) for years without freezing to death.

No, this occurred after his shape-shifting abilities were restored. He was fleeing from Jem'Hadar attack ships with one of the Vorta clones, and he melted a path into an ice asteroid to use it as a hiding place. He made the comment as the liquified portion was refreezing around the Runabout.

Of course, this may have been a threat that was specific to Odo and his relative lack of experience with shape-changing. Other Founders have apparently learned how to assume forms that can survive in space for extended periods; one supposedly could assume the form of a starship and travel at warpspeed.

[Sir Sirius]

Then that would contradict earlier episodes. Odo can't freeze to death in a Runabout if he was floating through interstellar space for years and lived.

The Runabout was in physical contact with an Asteroid made of ice, allowing it lose heat through conduction, instead of just radiating heat slowly away as a container floating through space would. (I'm not sure that conduction is the proper English word, but I'm talking about heat transfer from warmer areas to cooler ones while they are in physical contact.)

Not only that, but he can change into different materials (even different elements). Most of which would survive in interstellar space.

Seeing as how he was worried about freezing to death in "Treachery, Faith and the Great River" it would appear that he can't survive in low temperatures.

What indications were given that he was worried about himself freezing? There's got to be another way to interpret it.

Weyun: Odo, when you said you were cutting power to all systems, did that include life support?
Odo: I'm afraid so.
Weyun: Oh, that explains it.
Odo: Explains what?
Weyun: Why I'm having trouble breathing.
Odo: We should have enough oxygen left for another three hours. Of course by then we'll have probably frozen to death.
Weyun: But you can't die, you have to survive to rebuild the Dominion.

Both Odo and Weyun were visibly shivering during this discussion.

*EDIT*
The huge chunks of ice Odo hid the Runabout were comet fragments, not asteroids. Just noticed that while looking for the part were Odo piloted the Runabout inside the ice block.

[Metrion Cascade]

Then that would contradict earlier episodes. Odo can't freeze to death in a Runabout if he was floating through interstellar space for years and lived.

The Runabout was in physical contact with an Asteroid made of ice, allowing it lose heat through conduction, instead of just radiating heat slowly away as a container floating through space would. (I'm not sure that conduction is the proper English word, but I'm talking about heat transfer from warmer areas to cooler ones while they are in physical contact.)

Not only that, but he can change into different materials (even different elements). Most of which would survive in interstellar space.

Seeing as how he was worried about freezing to death in "Treachery, Faith and the Great River" it would appear that he can't survive in low temperatures.

What indications were given that he was worried about himself freezing? There's got to be another way to interpret it.

Weyun: Odo, when you said you were cutting power to all systems, did that include life support?
Odo: I'm afraid so.
Weyun: Oh, that explains it.
Odo: Explains what?
Weyun: Why I'm having trouble breathing.
Odo: We should have enough oxygen left for another three hours. Of course by then we'll have probably frozen to death.
Weyun: But you can't die, you have to survive to rebuild the Dominion.

Both Odo and Weyun were visibly shivering during this discussion.

*EDIT*
The huge chunks of ice Odo hid the Runabout were comet fragments, not asteroids. Just noticed that while looking for the part were Odo piloted the Runabout inside the ice block.

I've got to see this episode. Odo has formed materials that would survive in such temperatures. IIRC, no mention was made of a container during his time in space. And there's no excuse for him shivering - that's a muscle reaction, and Odo would only need internal muscle fibers to fool sensors. Otherwise they wouldn't be worth the effort, especially for someone who can't form a realistic Bajoran face. Fucking Trek writers should be shot.

Maybe the Founders have a policy of lying about their capabilities, even to the Vorta (especially the Vorta), and Odo is privy to it? And why the hell was Odo concerned about rebuilding the Dominion? It might speak to what he was thinking when he said this.

[Metrion Cascade]

No, this occurred after his shape-shifting abilities were restored. He was fleeing from Jem'Hadar attack ships with one of the Vorta clones, and he melted a path into an ice asteroid to use it as a hiding place. He made the comment as the liquified portion was refreezing around the Runabout.

Of course, this may have been a threat that was specific to Odo and his relative lack of experience with shape-changing. Other Founders have apparently learned how to assume forms that can survive in space for extended periods; one supposedly could assume the form of a starship and travel at warpspeed.

Now that's fucking cool. What episode featured the Founder warp drive? And it certainly helps my belief that the Founders can transmute elements at will - warp coils have parts even a replicator can't make.

Yes, I suppose Odo may simply not know how to stay alive in certain temperatures, but that still begs the question of how he survived in space (I don't recall a container being mentioned).

[Sir Sirius]

I've got to see this episode. Odo has formed materials that would survive in such temperatures.

Of course a rock and other inanimate objects would "survive" low temperatures, they aren't alive in the first place. However Odo is alive while mimicing something inanimate, he is even concious and capable of perceiving his surroundinds, there has to be some kind of activity inside him enabling him to think. Perhaps the cold would effect that.

IIRC, no mention was made of a container during his time in space.

I can't remember there being any specific mentio of what condition he was in when he was discovered. He had however crossed interstaller distances before ending up in the Denorius Belt where the Cardassians found him, he couldn't have travelled such distances as an infant, he wan't able to shapeshift at all at that time.

And there's no excuse for him shivering - that's a muscle reaction, and Odo would only need internal muscle fibers to fool sensors. Otherwise they wouldn't be worth the effort, especially for someone who can't form a realistic Bajoran face. Fucking Trek writers should be shot.

Don't really know. I suppose that it is possible that Odo's "nervous system" (loose definition of the word) reacts to cold by inducing unvoluntary spasms, but that is pure speculation.

Maybe the Founders have a policy of lying about their capabilities, even to the Vorta (especially the Vorta), and Odo is privy to it?

I doubt that the Founders would attempt to fool the Vorta in to thinking that they are weaker then they really are, they are after all presenting themselves as gods to them. Besides Odo has always been hard at work trying to convince the Jem'hadar and Vorta he has encountered that the Founders are not gods, I don't see why he would try to debunk that belief and uphold this one.

And why the hell was Odo concerned about rebuilding the Dominion? It might speak to what he was thinking when he said this.

He wasn't, Weyun was.

[Sir Sirius]

Now that's fucking cool. What episode featured the Founder warp drive?

DS9:"Chimara" (7th season episode 14).

And it certainly helps my belief that the Founders can transmute elements at will - warp coils have parts even a replicator can't make.

Laas wasn't a spaceship as much as he was some kind of a spaceborn "animal". He even appeared to be "swimming" through space. I doubt he was using conventional warp coils.

Yes, I suppose Odo may simply not know how to stay alive in certain temperatures, but that still begs the question of how he survived in space (I don't recall a container being mentioned).

Another possibility is that Laas knew how to stay warm in space, the only way of getting rid of heat in a hard vacuum is radiating it a way, he would have to produce much energy to keep himself warm.

[Ted C]

I've got to see this episode. Odo has formed materials that would survive in such temperatures. IIRC, no mention was made of a container during his time in space. And there's no excuse for him shivering - that's a muscle reaction, and Odo would only need internal muscle fibers to fool sensors. Otherwise they wouldn't be worth the effort, especially for someone who can't form a realistic Bajoran face. Fucking Trek writers should be shot.

Remember, Odo isn't as good at shape-changing as many other Founders, which might explain his situation. I don't know if a container was involved in his original arrival at Bajor, someone else might, but I wouldn't casually dismiss the idea.

As for shivering, in mammals it's an effort to generate extra body heat through muscle activity; the Founders might similarly attempt to generate heat through physical activity if needed.

Maybe the Founders have a policy of lying about their capabilities, even to the Vorta (especially the Vorta), and Odo is privy to it? And why the hell was Odo concerned about rebuilding the Dominion? It might speak to what he was thinking when he said this.

I seriously doubt Odo would be lying in order to comply with a Founder policy of secrecy. Odo was not concerned about rebuilding the Dominion; it was Weyoun who was concerned that Odo survive to do so.

[Ted C]

What episode featured the Founder warp drive? And it certainly helps my belief that the Founders can transmute elements at will - warp coils have parts even a replicator can't make.

As Sir Sirius mentioned, the episode is "Chimera", which I haven't seen myself. From reading the StarTrek.com description and comparing it to his account, I suspect that I'm entirely mistaken about the "warp drive" bit. Apparently Laas somehow smuggled himself onto Odo's Runabout while he was away from the station; it doesn't specify whether he managed this at warp speed, but I rather doubt it. Someone who has seen the episode should be able to clear this up.

Yes, I suppose Odo may simply not know how to stay alive in certain temperatures, but that still begs the question of how he survived in space (I don't recall a container being mentioned).

Don't be too quick to dismiss the possibility of some kind of life support capsule when we know so little about how Odo came to be on Bajor.

"The Begotten" shows another "infant" changeling, but I don't know if it specifies how it came to be in the AQ: apparently Odo purchased it from Quark, and StarTrek.com doesn't specify where Quark got it. Nonetheless, the infant changeling is pretty fragile and apparently dies at the end of the episode (although that's a questionable interpretation of the event, since the infant changeling "links" with Odo, restoring his shape-changing abilities in the process).

[Sir Sirius]

As Sir Sirius mentioned, the episode is "Chimera", which I haven't seen myself. From reading the StarTrek.com description and comparing it to his account, I suspect that I'm entirely mistaken about the "warp drive" bit. Apparently Laas somehow smuggled himself onto Odo's Runabout while he was away from the station; it doesn't specify whether he managed this at warp speed, but I rather doubt it. Someone who has seen the episode should be able to clear this up.

The episode starts with Odo and O'brian returning from somewhere on a Runabout, they have already entered the Bajoran system and dropped out of Warp (this is specifically mentioned) when Laas suddenly "swims" past the Runabout, latches on to the hull and somehow worms his way in. Laas wasn't seen traveling at Warp in that scene or anywhere else in the episode for that matter, but he had to have traveled in to Bajoran space somehow and he did leave for parts unknown at the end of the episode under his own power again. So while there isn't any true proof that Laas is Warp capable on his own, there is good reason to suspect that he is.

"The Begotten" shows another "infant" changeling, but I don't know if it specifies how it came to be in the AQ: apparently Odo purchased it from Quark, and StarTrek.com doesn't specify where Quark got it. Nonetheless, the infant changeling is pretty fragile and apparently dies at the end of the episode (although that's a questionable interpretation of the event, since the infant changeling "links" with Odo, restoring his shape-changing abilities in the process).

Quark bought it from a Uridian, it is not said where the Uridian got it. That changeling was in some kind of a jar, but it isn't said who put it in there.

[Luzifer's right hand]

The Funders are a little bit illogical, they are "perfect" impersonator yet the need to return to their fluid form in regular intervals. How should that work? . A sign with something like [FOAD] on Martoks and Beshirs door?

[TheDarkling]

The Funders are a little bit illogical, they are "perfect" impersonator yet the need to return to their fluid form in regular intervals. How should that work? . A sign with something like [FOAD] on Martoks and Beshirs door?

People tend to sleep for several hours a day, the Founders could use this time to return to their liquid form.

[Luzifer's right hand]

People tend to sleep for several hours a day, the Founders could use this time to return to their liquid form.

And no interruptions? never? martok was an important general and Beshira doctor. It's just a logic bug imho.

[TheDarkling]

And no interruptions? never? martok was an important general and Beshira doctor. It's just a logic bug imho.

Then they reform, they are aware while in a liquid form and can reform into a solid state (although if they don't spend enough time in the liquid state they will eventually break down (as in be unable to hold their shape).

I see very little in the way of a bug here, especially given that the founders may be able to go for longer periods without "rest" because of their abilities being better than Odo's (it is also implied that Odo's stay as a solid was less about a physical change than a mental one, if so then prolonged periods of solidness may be possible with experience).

[Metrion Cascade]

People tend to sleep for several hours a day, the Founders could use this time to return to their liquid form.

And no interruptions? never? martok was an important general and Beshira doctor. It's just a logic bug imho.

Founders have probably done these infiltrations for centuries and have myriad techniques for concealing their sleep. One idea I've got - they could use a hologram of the person they're impersonating. It's hollow to contain them, and they sleep inside it. When the hologram is disturbed, they wake up and make it respond. Maybe they can put controls inside the hologram and deliver preprogrammed responses until they have a chance to replace the hologram with themselves. On a Fed ship, this wouldn't even be necessary - everyone has their own quarters and if anyone wakes you up, it's usually via the comm system. You could literally walk in, hop into a vase on the coffee table, and wait for the alarm clock. Nobody would disturb you. And Fed internal security sensors, even if activated (they're usually not), are lousy at detecting sleeping Founders.

[Metrion Cascade]

And thanks for all the clarifications on Odo's fear of freezing to death. I suspect it's because of his relatively low skill at shapeshifting, since other Founders seem unafraid of it.

My overall analysis of Founders, assuming they're very well trained:

- ungodly intelligence and vast amounts of memory (sufficient to create multiple complex animals and machines from the subatomic level up, at will)
- elemental transmutation (we've seen them switch from organic to metallic, etc.)
- they can be killed by energy weapons (and apparently little else)

They must have at least one of the following, and possibly both:
- possible subspace mass lightening (especially if they can form machines like impulse engines)
- possibly the ability to shed and gain mass at will (by venting it as air/surrounding matter), or taking surrounding matter into themselves and turning it into other elements)

And now a unified theory of Founder biology. They probably exist in a state where the distinction between matter and energy isn't clear- like the domain Kes uses to manipulate matter and energy, or a singularity sans the density, or certain interpretations of Star Wars 'hypermatter.' They must take on matter/energy to survive because they exert energy, and can take them on in various forms. Energy weapons are probably not in a form that's poisonous to Founders (sans phasers, which cause them 'discomfort' even with one hit), but rather kill them by overloading them, heating the matter side of their biology faster than they can convert it to energy. At a slower rate of fire, some energy weapons might simply make Founders bigger. All in all, they're fucking uber. They might be approaching the Q in terms of evolutionary advancement. As for phasers, phasers push matter and energy out of normal space time instead of just delivering raw heat. Explaining why phaser rifles work even if there's just one, while Klingon disruptors need dozens of rapid shots even on kill.