Tkon empire

[Isolder74]

If only Paramount would use Star Fleet Battles as a official source.

[Typhonis 1]

That would be scary I mean Andromedans vs Borg???? how do you adapt to tractor/repulsor beams???

[Isolder74]

That would be scary I mean Andromedans vs Borg???? how do you adapt to tractor/repulsor beams???

You Die that what. Perhaps prevent the tractor from grabbing on

[Ted C]

IIRC, Data's description of the T'Kon empire said the were rumored to have been able to move stars; I don't think there's any solid evidence for that capability. It's a typical "legendary" exaggeration. I mean, if they were capable of moving stars, wouldn't they have moved their own dying sun out of their system and replaced it with a healthy one?

I supposed there's the possibility that they actually moved a star once, into their system, and that the process screwed it up so much that it exploded without warning and destroyed their civilization. That would be fairly typical of Trek science.

"Portal" appeared to be some kind of AI defense system that could project a solid hologram for communication. That story was a really sucky loose end. What is the point of Portal going back to "sleep" after that incident. It's not like the T'Kon Empire is likely to rise from its ashes and call him back to duty. He might as well throw in with the Federation; going back to sleep is pure isolationist laziness.

[ArmorPierce]

Moving their away? That would cause the entire star system to break up with planets flinging in all directions and this is assuming that they knew that their sun was to go super nova.

[Ted C]

Moving their away? That would cause the entire star system to break up with planets flinging in all directions and this is assuming that they knew that their sun was to go super nova.

Well, I can't think of any other circumstance that might have caused their sun to supernova without a geologic epoch or so of warning. And what other reason would a super-advanced race have for moving a star, anyway? Presumably they concurrently removed their own star and replaced it with another, and somehow adjusted the orbit of their planet (and any others in their system that mattered) to keep the whole system working. However, stars in our galaxy seem to be notoriously vulnerable to Treknobabble, and this one blew up real good in response to their mistreatment.

[seanrobertson]

Moving their away? That would cause the entire star system to break up with planets flinging in all directions and this is assuming that they knew that their sun was to go super nova.

Well, I can't think of any other circumstance that might have caused their sun to supernova without a geologic epoch or so of warning. *snip*

That's actually a damn good reason. They used their technobabble to tinker with the thing too much, and BAM!, it blew up in their faces.

Also:

IIRC, Data's description of the T'Kon empire said the were rumored to have been able to move stars; I don't think there's any solid evidence for that capability. It's a typical "legendary" exaggeration. I mean, if they were capable of moving stars, wouldn't they have moved their own dying sun out of their system and replaced it with a healthy one?

I suppose they could, but they'd need the ability to move more than one star at once; furthermore, they'd have to swipe one out for the other very rapidly, since taking star A away while waiting for B would make things awfully cold planetside (That's not to mention how it'd be a bad idea to have the A & B in the same system for very long, too.)

Anyway, your recollection is pretty much on the money. Anytime Data described the Tkon's abilities, he'd qualify, "Only legend, but..." beforehand.

I checked Mike's notes in the Canon Database and the scripts I've got and, as I thought, a couple of pertinent lines we're talking about are slightly different in the aired version. One you're thinking of is as follows:

"Again, only legend, but it describes the Empire as advanced and powerful, capable of actually moving stars."

It seems appropriate to point out that "moving" doesn't mean they could move a star a great distance, certainly not necessarily outside its original system.

On a somewhat different note, I've been thinking about how one star's supernova could literally kill the entire "advanced and powerful" Tkon Empire.

I always like to reference the dialogue in case someone picks up something I miss:

PICARD

How does the legend describe the
end of the Tkon Empire?

DATA
By their Sun going supernova, sir.

PICARD
Could this planet have escaped
that?

Of course it escaped the supernova, Captain Retard. It's in another system altogether: only 6,000 years (possibly 600,000 in the aired version?) after the supernova, Gamma Tauri IV is intact and has a breathable atmosphere, not to mention that its star provides Earth-like light/heat.

To my knowledge, a supernova even in a neighboring system shouldn't have affected GT IV unduly. Federation types can be incredible ignorant or dumb, but come on...Picard's uncertainty here is frightening.

Anyway, I'll let Data finish:


Data touches the panel and VIEWER IMAGE CHANGES BACK TO
THE TKON EMPIRE CHART. He indicates a distant one of
the surrounding stars.

DATA
This planet, Gamma Tauri IV,
could have been the most distant
outpost, sir, in theory. But
since it shows no life form readings...

The "Viewer Image" supposedly shows a number of Tkon systems. "Most distant outpost" would also imply that there were outposts other than GT IV, albeit closer to the Tkon Empire's center.

The question becomes, after the Tkon lose their home system in a supernova, what does the rest of the Empire do? In the ridiculously unlikely event their other systems ever needed to run from this supernova, they would have plenty of time to get the hell outta Dodge--years, in fact.

As I see it, that leaves us with three options.

Option 1
Per the overcentralized explanation, the Tkon all pretty much stayed in their home system. All of their other holdings were mostly automated, maintained by things like "Portal."

Pro: This explanation is also pretty simple. It doesn't invoke anything unscientific, either.

Cons:

--Why might they do this?

If the Tkon were some kind of interstellar agoraphobes and/or were xenophobic, automated weapons on planets in surrounding systems could act as a crude kind of buffer zone, separating them from the rest of the galaxy. (One wonders how effective these defenses might be. You could enter one of their systems and, so long as you didn't get too close to one of their worlds, what are they going to do to you? How would they impede your advance to the heart of their territory?)

Then again "Portal," a representative of their culture, didn't seem averse to learning about and interacting with aliens. Maybe he was programmed to be what his xenophobe creators weren't, loosely analogous to Natalie Portman deciding she wanted Pam Anderson's tits.

(Okay, it's a VERY loose analogy. But I wanted to picture it anyhow )

--Subjectively, that degree of centralization seems a bit "off." With a population Data said was into the trillions, it seems odd that they'd claim other systems only to leave them [mostly] maintained by machines.

--Such also seems inconsistent with an empire's MO, especially from the aforementioned defensive standpoint. It's just plain hard to hold all those star systems without getting a decent number of people out there, even if it's a few thousand colonists like on your typical Federation planet (or LV-426 ).

Option 2
The supernova was magical, able to destroy planets light years away, and the star-moving Tkon were too stupid to run away, even with YEARS advance warning.

This needs no comment. The only reason I bring it up as because it seems to be what the writers had in mind, more or less.

Option 3
This "supernova" spread far faster than light. The colonies and outposts, even those dozens of light years away, wouldn't have time to react to such an event.

Pro: Huge FTL explosions aren't without precedent in Star Trek. The best example is the Praxis explosion. I rather doubt Excelsior was cruising in the outskirts of the Qo'nos system. She was probably light years distant, and I don't think the shockwave was riding through space for years on end to reach her, either.

Con: This option would invoke to Trek's old fallback, the dreaded S word "subspace."

Still, it works as a part of my wild guess why the Tkon became extinct. It's something along these lines...

The Tkonnites were trying to move the star in their native system, hoping to very slightly change the distance between it and their homeworld as a means of keeping the planet warmer or cooler.

Unfortunately, their method of moving the star, which utilized some kind of mass-lightening/subspace immersion bullshit, triggered a nasty reaction, and the thing blew up. (It wouldn't be the first time a Trek species was fooling around with something they didn't understand, eh?)

Further, the method used to move the star somehow allowed the resulting "supernova" to rapidly spread throughout the Tkon's territory. The colonies that survived the blast didn't last long, independent of the empire's supply lines and industry. Only the automated planetary defenses remained on a handful of frontier worlds.

Or something like that.

[Shrykull]

The Last Outpost also had one of the funniest scenes in Trek, Data getting his fingers stuck in a Chinese finger trap.

Um, even if he couldn't figure it out, doesn't he have the strength to simply pull his fingers out, ripping it apart in the process? I think the finger puzzle works by several woven things that get stronger as you pull out, if you look at it.

[Shrykull]

Yes, because DC does not house all of our government, shipbuilding, a large portion of our population, etc.

Neither does Earth for the Federation.

What if the empire lost Coruscant or the entire Coruscant system, are there other planets in it?

[seanrobertson]

The Last Outpost also had one of the funniest scenes in Trek, Data getting his fingers stuck in a Chinese finger trap.

Um, even if he couldn't figure it out, doesn't he have the strength to simply pull his fingers out, ripping it apart in the process? I think the finger puzzle works by several woven things that get stronger as you pull out, if you look at it.

That one puzzled me, too Data's daughter Lal is said to have the "strength of ten men," so you'd think he'd be around that level. That should be more than enough to tear the thing in two.

Perhaps Data screwed around with too many new programs and such in the first season, some of which made him overly concerned about destroying property *shrugs* In any case, he definitely acted differently in the earlier episodes; e.g., that crazy-ass smile he gave Wesley Crusher when lifting the boy out of water in the holodeck ("Encounter at Farpoint"), or his uncharacteristic boast of superiority in the same episode.

[Ender]

Was it the Tkon who had that gate system? Because that could explain it, supernova goes off, explosion gets funneled through the gate system to all the planets. Solid neutronium gate, should survive for a little bit (fraction of a second, long enough to send PK even energy through from a supernova) Can't imagine even a fraction of the power of a supernova being good for a planet. It would be akin to flushing a M-80 down the toliet, the explosion makes water shoot out all the toilets in the school. Not that I would know anything about that *shifty eyes*

Incidently, we really need a shifty eyed smiley icon.

[Ted C]

Um, even if he couldn't figure it out, doesn't he have the strength to simply pull his fingers out, ripping it apart in the process? I think the finger puzzle works by several woven things that get stronger as you pull out, if you look at it.

Data certainly shouldn't have had any trouble destroying the "Chinese handcuff" if he wanted to, but he was presumably trying to extricate himself without damaging it. Basically, when you stretch the puzzle lengthwise, it constricts, reducing its diameter and tightening it's grip on any finger inserted into the end.

Was it the Tkon who had that gate system?

Nope. That was the Iconians.

[Ender]

Was it the Tkon who had that gate system?

Nope. That was the Iconians.

Damn.