Why does everyone think Jellico's great?

[Darth Wong]

Over rated? Hes the fucking best example we've seen.

This doesn't say much.

He knew how to get the job done, bitchslapped Riker, and got the Enterprise crew to work effectively because of the pride in their acomplisments.

What makes you think the crew was any more effective under him?

Not only that he negotiated effectively against an agressive enemy.

Anyone could have negotiated effectively when he'd managed to mine their ships first. If they're stupid enough to sit in a sensor-blind area so that they can't detect people sneaking up on them, they deserve it.

Jellico was the opposite of Picard, and that was refreshing, but you are going too far by lionizing him. He made a change in the operating procedures of a ship and crew just prior to a major engagement, even though it served no real purpose and any change in procedure is likely to cause short-term problems. He decided to commit the Enterprise (and the Federation) to an act of war, but he did not ask for reinforcements. He was so confident in his plan that he warped to the location of the ships under the assumption that they would not have a single ship or even a sensor probe outside the nebula which would announce their arrival. While it was refreshing to see a Starfleet captain with balls, there's no reason to assume he was a great captain or got anything more out of his crew than anyone else would have.

[Lord Poe]

I think he was a great captain. Its unfortunate that Starfleet doesn't have more with his attitude. I've got to say, FUCK Riker and Geordie during Jellico's command! What a bunch of insubordinate crybabies! Jellico was the CAPTAIN, so why the fuck was Riker rolling his eyes at everything Jellico said? The guy was putting their noses to the grindstonefor once, and they piss and moan. Geordie acted like he was being PUNISHED because he was asked to work harder!

Fuckin' reminds me of some of the workers I have to deal with...

[Jeremy]

2) Ask troi to wear a uniform.

I bet a Ferengi could have done a better job.

As for sending Riker out to lay the mines, you gotta admit that was a pretty proactive decision. Though I do wonder how Riker is the only qualified shuttle pilot who can do the task.

You're right, it was a very proactive decision. Get rid of two birds with one stone if your lucky. eh eh

[Stofsk]

As for sending Riker out to lay the mines, you gotta admit that was a pretty proactive decision. Though I do wonder how Riker is the only qualified shuttle pilot who can do the task.

You're right, it was a very proactive decision. Get rid of two birds with one stone if your lucky. eh eh

I'll always marvel at modern Trek's ability to create main characters everyone hates and wishes would take long trip down a short gravity well. For all TNG was lauded as being an excellent show, I honestly can't think of a character I really liked. Picard had his moments, and Ensign Ro was severely underused, but everyone else could have been replaced and I wouldn't have minded.

I forgot that Geordi was with Riker. Makes me wish the Cardassian's point defence systems could've tracked them in that nebula and finished them off.

[Alyeska]

The really sad thing is that the writers tried to portray Jellico as a poor captain due to his hardass nature and unwillingness to let other officers question his orders. To an extent this worked because people who don't know much about the military instantly hate Jellico for trying to destroy the large family known as the crew of the Enterprise.

[Isolder74]

Yes, I saw this episode as a very anti-military one. They decry the fact thjat Jelico refused to admit that Picard was on a Federation mission(like a real military man would do) which was the first point of conflict between him and Riker. In every way they make it look like Picard would have done a better job than Jellico. They made the Mine thing sould as if it was immoral and dishonest, yet it worked. The mine appears to have been simply a bluff but it was hard to tell.

[CDiehl]

Lord Poe makes a good point. The complaining is very unprofessional for officers on duty, let alone the XO and Chief Engineer, who should know better. They should be discouraging such talk among the crew, not saying it themselves. In addition, Riker is lucky he wasn't sent to the brig when he failed to arrange for a 4th shift as ordered (not requested) by the Captain. If there was a problem, he could have told Jellico about it or told the department heads to "get it done."

[Publius]

CAPT Edward Jellico is esteemed by many Star Trek viewers because he appears to be a competent, professional officer in an environment which does not encourage that kind of competence. Despite poor writing which very clearly sought to make Captain Jellico look both unreasonable and unlikeable (just in case the audience doesn't catch the episode's drift, CDR Riker thoughtfully takes the time to sum it all up in one screed), he generally seems to be a respectable leader who is neither afraid to seize the upper hand nor to take advantage of it.

He is no Lord Nelson of the Nile (or perhaps more appropriately, no Lord Hornblower), of course. Nevertheless, like GADM Thrawn, he has his partisans, who are wont to exaggerate his prowess and accomplishments. He is a better leader than CAPT Picard, and could even be considered a good leader, but is by no means a great one.

PUBLIUS

[Howedar]

In all fairness, Jellico could be a great leader. The only thing we know is that we never hear about him again. To my knowledge, we never saw him do anything stupid.


So more properly Jellico was at least a good leader, and maybe a great one.

[Darth Wong]

In all fairness, Jellico could be a great leader. The only thing we know is that we never hear about him again. To my knowledge, we never saw him do anything stupid.

Embarking upon a unilateral act of war with no backup and no fallback plan if their mine-laying shuttle is detected is not something stupid? He took a huge risk and it paid off for him. It could have easily been a disaster.

So more properly Jellico was at least a good leader, and maybe a great one.

Jellico had questionable judgement, but people seem to be willfully overlooking that because he had a hard-ass style and that's so woefully lacking in Starfleet.

[Alyeska]

Jellico was given command of the Enterprise and its likely in this instance Starfleet command gave him the authority to do what he did. Jellico no doubt had to report his activities and no doubt the crew was happily firing away messages to Starfleet Command informing them of the new hardass captain. Jellico didn't seem to fear the consequences of his actions. Either he knew he was ending his career which seems unlikely, or he was sanctioned to do what he was doing.

[Darth Wong]

Jellico was given command of the Enterprise and its likely in this instance Starfleet command gave him the authority to do what he did. Jellico no doubt had to report his activities and no doubt the crew was happily firing away messages to Starfleet Command informing them of the new hardass captain. Jellico didn't seem to fear the consequences of his actions. Either he knew he was ending his career which seems unlikely, or he was sanctioned to do what he was doing.

It's not a question of whether he had Starfleet's permission to go ahead. It's still a unilateral act of war with no provisions whatsoever for the slightest thing going wrong. It's still a question of whether he had a fallback strategy in case they or the shuttle were detected, and he didn't. If he did, he certainly didn't brief the staff on it, which would make it rather difficult to implement in an emergency.

And quite frankly, the fact that he bought Geordi's bullshit about Riker being the only man on the ship who could possibly fly that shuttle is indicative of serious naivete. Geordi obviously wanted an excuse to get Riker on his feet again, and Jellico somehow bought the notion that the finest starship in the fleet, with the elite personnel culled from the best the Federation had to offer, had not one person on board who could perform manual maneuvers requiring far less precision than a simple shuttle docking operation besides Riker.

[Howedar]

Embarking upon a unilateral act of war with no backup and no fallback plan if their mine-laying shuttle is detected is not something stupid? He took a huge risk and it paid off for him. It could have easily been a disaster.

Okay. That was why I added the "to my knowledge" qualifier; I've not seen the episode since I was about seven.

Conceded.

[Joe Momma]

It's still a unilateral act of war with no provisions whatsoever for the slightest thing going wrong. It's still a question of whether he had a fallback strategy in case they or the shuttle were detected, and he didn't. If he did, he certainly didn't brief the staff on it, which would make it rather difficult to implement in an emergency.

And if it went wrong, the two most experienced Federation flag officers in the area would have been dead or captured. The former would be bad enough, but the latter could have been disastrous. That would have left the Cardies with an invasion fleet surrounding a lone Feddie ship and given the enemy a total of three high ranking officers with military secrets galore for their interrogators to plunder at their leisure. A good commanding officer would have had the sense to send technicians with the necessary skills. Isn't avoiding unneccessary risk to high-ranking officers the whole reason behind the regulation that the captain of a ship isn't allowed on Away Teams?

Moreover, I'm also hesitant to call him a good leader. He was capable of commanding competently (though last-minute changes to basics like staff rotation just before a possible war is a questionable practice, but hell, nobody's perfect), but a good leader would likely have been able to bring Riker into line before that blow-up in the conference room that led to Riker being relieved of duty.

To put it more simply, a good commander can get people to do things, but a good leader can inspire them to want to do it.

-- Joe Momma

[Lord Poe]

Embarking upon a unilateral act of war with no backup and no fallback plan if their mine-laying shuttle is detected is not something stupid? He took a huge risk and it paid off for him. It could have easily been a disaster.

Come now. Do you recall the "Corbomite Maneuver"? "The Changeling"?
"Obsession"? "A Private Little War"? Kirk did a lot of things hoping they'd turn out in his favor, and without an apparent backup plan.

[Isolder74]

Jellico was given command of the Enterprise and its likely in this instance Starfleet command gave him the authority to do what he did. Jellico no doubt had to report his activities and no doubt the crew was happily firing away messages to Starfleet Command informing them of the new hardass captain. Jellico didn't seem to fear the consequences of his actions. Either he knew he was ending his career which seems unlikely, or he was sanctioned to do what he was doing.

It's not a question of whether he had Starfleet's permission to go ahead. It's still a unilateral act of war with no provisions whatsoever for the slightest thing going wrong. It's still a question of whether he had a fallback strategy in case they or the shuttle were detected, and he didn't. If he did, he certainly didn't brief the staff on it, which would make it rather difficult to implement in an emergency.

And quite frankly, the fact that he bought Geordi's bullshit about Riker being the only man on the ship who could possibly fly that shuttle is indicative of serious naivete. Geordi obviously wanted an excuse to get Riker on his feet again, and Jellico somehow bought the notion that the finest starship in the fleet, with the elite personnel culled from the best the Federation had to offer, had not one person on board who could perform manual maneuvers requiring far less precision than a simple shuttle docking operation besides Riker.

This may actually be a sign of how much the Federation has come to relie on automation for everything rather than having them learn the hard way first. Riker may have very well been the only one on the ship to have such practice. Remember the thing he had done that qualified his to do this was a illegal manuever done out of simple bravado. It appears from the dialogue that Jelico also knew how to do the maneuver. Geordi knew what it was but had never done it. So basically what we have is the fact that only Riker had the nessesary practice to do the stunt required to plant the mines. For docking the appear to simply slave the shuttle to the ship's computer to land.

Much has changed from the day when Sulu had done manual landing training as part of his job desription. The E-D does not appear to have any type of arresting gear incase a shuttle is forced to make a manual landing.

[Stofsk]

Embarking upon a unilateral act of war with no backup and no fallback plan if their mine-laying shuttle is detected is not something stupid? He took a huge risk and it paid off for him. It could have easily been a disaster.

Come now. Do you recall the "Corbomite Maneuver"? "The Changeling"?
"Obsession"? "A Private Little War"? Kirk did a lot of things hoping they'd turn out in his favor, and without an apparent backup plan.

Kirk had no choice in those matters, he was alone and far from reinforcements (at least for the "Corbomite Maneuver"). Jellico, on the other hand, could have (indeed, should have) called for some escort ships, particularly if he thought that the Cardassians were going to invade.

[Alyeska]

Something else to consider. At the time the Galor class was no match for a Galaxy and a Galaxy could concievably take on three at once. Given Jellico's military nature I have no doubt he could fight the ship better then Picard or Riker. I suspect that Jellico's fallback plan was to give the Cardassians a momentary stunning defeat by destroying the ships in the negoations and delay or even prevent the enemy invassion.

[Darth Wong]

Something else to consider. At the time the Galor class was no match for a Galaxy and a Galaxy could concievably take on three at once.

Capship combat isn't like Bruce Lee movies. The rest of the enemy fleet doesn't wait their turn to attack. They would just swarm the lone GCS and destroy it.

Given Jellico's military nature I have no doubt he could fight the ship better then Picard or Riker.

Idle speculation without basis in fact. The fact that he acts tough does not mean he is a skilled tactician.

I suspect that Jellico's fallback plan was to give the Cardassians a momentary stunning defeat by destroying the ships in the negoations and delay or even prevent the enemy invassion.

Oh come on, this has now degenerated into outright fan-wanking. You're saying that Mighty Jellico's brilliant fallback plan was to deal an entire Cardassian battle fleet a "momentary stunning defeat" by fighting them single-handed?

[Alyeska]

Fact of the matter is the Galor class at that time was not a very impressive ship. The very first time the Enterprise met one they were fired on by the Galor and it was but a minor nuicance. Then the Enterprise returned fire damaging it imediately. Yes they could have swarmed the Enterprise, but it would take quite a few, and I don't seem to recall they had that many on hand.

We know that Jellico had a better military understanding then Picard or Riker. We know the capabilities of the Enterprise at the time. I am not fanwanking. I am assuming Jellico would use the ship to a higher degree of success then either Picard or Riker have previously demonstrated. Rather then being shot first, he might fire first. Rather then fire a few paltry shots, he could use all of its weapons and hammer the enemy.

[Darth Wong]

Fact of the matter is the Galor class at that time was not a very impressive ship. The very first time the Enterprise met one they were fired on by the Galor and it was but a minor nuicance. Then the Enterprise returned fire damaging it imediately. Yes they could have swarmed the Enterprise, but it would take quite a few, and I don't seem to recall they had that many on hand.

They can't be quite that useless. After all:

MADRED: We acquired territory during the wars... we developed new resources... we initiated a rebuilding program... we have mandated agricultural programs. That is what the military has done for Cardassia.

If they were so impotent that a single Federation starship could take down large portions of an entire Cardassian fleet, it would have been virtually impossible for them to successfully expand during their war, even given incompetent Federation negotiators. And given their level of confidence as well as Starfleet's concern over their actions, they obviously were afraid of this fleet.

You don't commit a unilateral act of war by entering Cardassian territory to hit ships in the McAllister Nebula rather than moving ships to defend Minos Korva (which would be perfectly legal under the treaty) unless you are afraid that you won't actually be able to stop this fleet once it shows its face. Particularly when Minos Korva is 11 hours away, thus giving them plenty of advance warning if the Cardies should decide to pop out of that nebula.

We know that Jellico had a better military understanding then Picard or Riker.

How do we know that? Must I reiterate that a tough attitude does not necessarily equate to tactical skill?

We know the capabilities of the Enterprise at the time. I am not fanwanking. I am assuming Jellico would use the ship to a higher degree of success then either Picard or Riker have previously demonstrated.

You are assuming this based on what? Even Picard or Riker are perfectly capable of opening fire on enemy ships when they know it's a hostile situation. Their only problem is that they always give the aliens the benefit of the doubt. That would not have been the case here.

Rather then being shot first, he might fire first. Rather then fire a few paltry shots, he could use all of its weapons and hammer the enemy.

Which would avail him nothing against an enemy with such large numerical superiority.

PS. I looked at the script again, and the proximity sensors would detect Cardie ships once they were within 500 metres. That's a huge margin of error, and they hardly needed to send their first officer and chief engineer to lay these eggs.

[Stofsk]

Something else to consider. At the time the Galor class was no match for a Galaxy and a Galaxy could concievably take on three at once.

Capship combat isn't like Bruce Lee movies. The rest of the enemy fleet doesn't wait their turn to attack. They would just swarm the lone GCS and destroy it.

That is one of the funniest things I've read recently!

Seriously, isn't it a naval rule that you only engage the enemy when you have a numerical advantage? Assuming you aren't desperate that is. I remember the parallel universes episode, where the Enterprise was prepared to face off against 2 Galor-class warships, and even then Alternate-Picard looked grim faced.

The Galaxy-class is the federation's equivalent of a battleship, is it not? What is the Galor-class an equivalent of to the Cardassians?

[Howedar]

Seriously, isn't it a naval rule that you only engage the enemy when you have a numerical advantage?

Not in the least. One Iowa would not hesitate to engage a pair of WW1 destroyers.

I remember the parallel universes episode, where the Enterprise was prepared to face off against 2 Galor-class warships, and even then Alternate-Picard looked grim faced.

Alternate universes are generally not a very good source for comparitive ship strengths.

The Galaxy-class is the federation's equivalent of a battleship, is it not? What is the Galor-class an equivalent of to the Cardassians?

The Galor is the Cardassian ship of the line; however, from whatever the TNG episode was with Maxwell's attack in it, Cardassian warships are significantly weaker than Federation ones.

[Stofsk]

Seriously, isn't it a naval rule that you only engage the enemy when you have a numerical advantage?

Not in the least. One Iowa would not hesitate to engage a pair of WW1 destroyers.

I meant, and suppose should have specified, when the opposing forces have an equivalent tech level. So the above scenario, would it still occur if you replace the pair of WW1 destroyers with WW2 battleships or cruisers?

I remember the parallel universes episode, where the Enterprise was prepared to face off against 2 Galor-class warships, and even then Alternate-Picard looked grim faced.

Alternate universes are generally not a very good source for comparitive ship strengths.

The point I was trying to engender across was that, even in an AR Picard still looked worried about facing off against a pair of Cardassian warships. I wasn't suggesting that AR ships and OR ships have the same firepower.

The Galaxy-class is the federation's equivalent of a battleship, is it not? What is the Galor-class an equivalent of to the Cardassians?

The Galor is the Cardassian ship of the line; however, from whatever the TNG episode was with Maxwell's attack in it, Cardassian warships are significantly weaker than Federation ones.

Which means that one-on-one a GCS can take a Galor easily. But what happens when the numbers are 3-to-1?

[Rubberanvil]

Question from another person who haven't seen the epsiode since it first aired.

If Jellico had ask for backup isn't there reasonable probability of them being detected, or his request picked up by Cardie Intel?