Best Space Superiority Fighter In Trek

[Crazedwraith]

They are actualy 125m long IIRC.

DS9 TM says 68.32 metres

[Sarevok]

You are right. I checked DITL and he also puts the same value.

[Alyeska]

The Venture at best has a handful of torpedoes. There is litteraly not all that much room in the thing. And where do you get the bit on it having worse shields then the Delta Flyer? Furthermore where did you come up with the idea of pitting the Venture against the Delta Flyer? Typicaly you use fighters to shoot down enemy strike fighters.

The Venture performed poorly against standard shuttlecraft which have weak phasers. That would indicate weaker shields than the Delta Flyer.

The thread is about the best Star Trek fighter. You mentioned the Venture as one of the best candidates for this title. So it is natural we would have to consider how well she would do against the Delta Flyer.

Actually the Shuttlecraft shown in Insurrection is a rather interesting shuttle. It carries at least one torpedo like launcher and it has the largest phaser arrays seen on any shuttle. It has more firepower available then a Runabout.

[Alyeska]

That would make Federation Tactical fighters torpedo bombers since they are making torpedo runs on capital ships. Since no other major power invovled in the Dominion war deployed a true fighter their performence against other fighters is just guess work.

Tactical Fighters can be modified to carry other weapons. We have seen Tac-Fighters with a micro torpedo turret and beam phaser in the nose at the same time and both were used in combat against a Runabout. They have also carried both prototype and next generation Micro PPCs in their wings. The prototype PPCs were relatively useful against Runabouts as well.

[Alyeska]

They are actualy 125m long IIRC.

DS9 TM says 68.32 metres

The Jem'Hadar Attackship which is commonly called a fighter and incorrectly labeled as 68 meters is infact in the 120 meter range. The Attackship is comparable in size to BoPs and Defiant class ships which range from 120 meters to 170 meters.

[Crazedwraith]

They are actualy 125m long IIRC.

DS9 TM says 68.32 metres

The Jem'Hadar Attackship which is commonly called a fighter and incorrectly labeled as 68 meters is infact in the 120 meter range. The Attackship is comparable in size to BoPs and Defiant class ships which range from 120 meters to 170 meters.

Of course both BoPs and the defiant has scaling issues of their own.

Some scaling of defiants and BoPs land them in the 60-70 metre range.

[Alyeska]

Of course both BoPs and the defiant has scaling issues of their own.

Some scaling of defiants and BoPs land them in the 60-70 metre range.

Irrelevent, the size of the Attackship as compared to BoPs and Defiants remain consistent. The DS9 TM gets several ship legnths wrong, why automaticaly accept its length on the Attackship while throughing out canon visual evidence proving the TM wrong?

[Crazedwraith]

Of course both BoPs and the defiant has scaling issues of their own.

Some scaling of defiants and BoPs land them in the 60-70 metre range.

Irrelevent, the size of the Attackship as compared to BoPs and Defiants remain consistent. The DS9 TM gets several ship legnths wrong, why automaticaly accept its length on the Attackship while throughing out canon visual evidence proving the TM wrong?

And im just saying as the BoP and defiant have scaline issues of their own scaling them against anything is unreliable.

[Alyeska]

Of course both BoPs and the defiant has scaling issues of their own.

Some scaling of defiants and BoPs land them in the 60-70 metre range.

Irrelevent, the size of the Attackship as compared to BoPs and Defiants remain consistent. The DS9 TM gets several ship legnths wrong, why automaticaly accept its length on the Attackship while throughing out canon visual evidence proving the TM wrong?

And im just saying as the BoP and defiant have scaline issues of their own scaling them against anything is unreliable.

The BoP has remained consistent. Other then two incidents (one in TNG, one in DS9) the size of the BoP has remained the same. As for the Defiant, it has also remained consistent. While the size might flucutate between 120m and 170m, for the purpose of this discussion that is close enough for accuracy. Jem'Hadar attackships have been shown in comparison to a variety of Trek ships and its size has remained quite consistent. You can compare it to Vorchas, BoPs, Defiants, and even Galaxy class ships. It is very clearly much larger then the DS9 TM states.

I rather dislike that part of the DS9 TM. It gets MANY things wrong.

Here is a sampling of its errors:

Galaxy Class, two torpedo launchers and eleven phaser arrays
Nebula Class, two torpedo launchers and eight phaser arrays
Defiant, two torpedo launchers and the beam phasers not listed
Akira, six phaser arrays and two torpedo launchers
Sabre and Norway class are listed with the exact same dimensions.
Two Excelsior variants are incorrectly diagramed.
K'Vort class BoP stated to be 678 meters long
Cardassian ships do not have torpedo launchers listed
Both the largest and smallest Dominion ships are given the exact same weapons loadout and torpedoes are not listed.
Both the largest and smallest Romulan ship are given the exact same weapons loadout.

[Crazedwraith]

Irrelevent, the size of the Attackship as compared to BoPs and Defiants remain consistent. The DS9 TM gets several ship legnths wrong, why automaticaly accept its length on the Attackship while throughing out canon visual evidence proving the TM wrong?

And im just saying as the BoP and defiant have scaline issues of their own scaling them against anything is unreliable.

The BoP has remained consistent. Other then two incidents (one in TNG, one in DS9) the size of the BoP has remained the same.

Incorrect different examples of it have been scaled to dozens of different sizes.The BoP in ST IV should have been 120ish but scaling vulcans on the ramp meant it came out at 55 (and it had been scalled to 120 in ST:III. GK has quite an extensive article on the issue.here

As for the Defiant, it has also remained consistent. While the size might flucutate between 120m and 170m, for the purpose of this discussion that is close enough for accuracy. Jem'Hadar attackships have been shown in comparison to a variety of Trek ships and its size has remained quite consistent. You can compare it to Vorchas, BoPs, Defiants, and even Galaxy class ships. It is very clearly much larger then the DS9 TM states.

Also incorrect. In FC you can scale it against the E-E you get around 60, in "one little ship" scale against the runabout and you get a lenght signifgantly longer than 170.

I rather dislike that part of the DS9 TM. It gets MANY things wrong.

Here is a sampling of its errors:

Galaxy Class, two torpedo launchers and eleven phaser arrays
Nebula Class, two torpedo launchers and eight phaser arrays
Defiant, two torpedo launchers and the beam phasers not listed
Akira, six phaser arrays and two torpedo launchers
Sabre and Norway class are listed with the exact same dimensions.
Two Excelsior variants are incorrectly diagramed.
K'Vort class BoP stated to be 678 meters long
Cardassian ships do not have torpedo launchers listed
Both the largest and smallest Dominion ships are given the exact same weapons loadout and torpedoes are not listed.
Both the largest and smallest Romulan ship are given the exact same weapons loadout.

Lets not forget it credits bajoran ships with "six or more phased polaron beam weapons.

[Alyeska]

Incorrect different examples of it have been scaled to dozens of different sizes.The BoP in ST IV should have been 120ish but scaling vulcans on the ramp meant it came out at 55 (and it had been scalled to 120 in ST:III. GK has quite an extensive article on the issue.here

Also incorrect. In FC you can scale it against the E-E you get around 60, in "one little ship" scale against the runabout and you get a lenght signifgantly longer than 170.

Ok, so I left out a handful of examples. Irregardless the vast majority of the examples clearly indicate the size of the BoP and Defiant as being relatively the same size. As to Kennedys essay. While it has a lot of canon data, its full of shit. He automaticaly ascribes all scaling errors as a new class of ship.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Also, re: the Venture's performance -- it caused the Son'a flagship quite a bit of grief all by itself. A small strike group of 3-5 Ventures could conceivably at least cripple such a ship, if we were to go by reactions alone. (Since there aren't any hard specs on the things, that's all we've got is the Son'a reactions and the FX sparkle-and-dance routine.)

IIRC, Data was shooting 'insert technobabble here' into the Son'a's shields to destablized them. This was only a concern because of the radiation thingy and the weapons fire itself really wasn't a threat to the ship. IIRC.

Anyway, OT. There really isn't a need for fighters in the ST universe. None of the smaller scale shuttle sized weapons are a threat to the larger craft and shuttle on shuttle as shown in the shows isn't that effective either and even then it is a prolonged experience. Shuttle sized weapons aren't up to the task against shuttle sized shields.

I don't recall any episode where a shuttle vaped a shuttle with a couple blasts or a couple, couple blasts. If it takes eight or nine passes with your fighter to scrap a strike fighter or bomber or another fighter, your fighter is worthless.

That's why I'm also looking for the best platform on which to build an effective Trek fighter.

So far, my picks for the best platform are the Insurrection type shuttlecraft and the Venture Scout. These two could be modified using canon tech, IMHO, into very effective fighters. (Very effective against Trek ships, anyway.)

[seanrobertson]

Crazedwraith, Alyeska,

We see a mostly buried Jem'Hadar attack ship in "The Ship." Look at the third picture down on this page:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Saturn/ ... eship.html

See part of the ship sticking out? (If it looks strange, it's because the thing crashed upside-down. The vidcap ain't so hot, either but, eh--what are you gonna do?)

Later in the episode, O'Brien notes:

...she's embedded ninety meters
into the rock. But if I can shake
her loose by firing the main
thrusters, hauling her out'll be
a lot easier.

90m under "rock" + a few meters still exposed = >90m long ship

The Dominator, as I like to call the ship, might look bigger in shots which show her chasing a Runabout. MIGHT. Unfortunately, I don't have screengrabs of the two in one frame. I do, however, have shots of attack ships ramming Vor'cha cruisers and a GCS, measurements from which are consistent with "The Ship." I gotta run with what I've got.

Runabout comparisons aside, I don't believe there's much else to challenge the 90-100m range...if anyone has ideas I would like to hear them.

The only potential contradiction I can think of is derived by "window scaling," a method in which you'd measure how big the ship should be relative to its windows. Fans of this method say the attack ship is ~150m, IIRC.

The trouble is, what something "should be" is inferior to direct investigation. About as direct as it gets, and mentioned earlier, we have seen Jem'Hadar ships RIGHT next to ships with well-established dimensions; therefore, window scaling is irrelevant.

That approach is also unsatisfactory because:

1--Windows needn't be one-size-fits-all. If they are viewports, why assume they're much bigger than a guy's head, let alone are a meter high/across or more?

We never see these ports up-close, and certainly don't see a Jem'Hadar wistfully gazing out of one to establish perspective. As such, to claim they're a specific size or range of sizes, no matter how reasonable the figure(s) might seem, could still be an illicit move.

At best, you might be able to establish lower and/or upper-limits, but that's still troublesome because it assumes...

2--Those small points of light are, in fact, windows. How do we know this? (I actually think they are, but if it's at all questionable, it's a shit way to scale the ship.)

But enough digression.

Summary: based on the FX I can verify and some very explicit dialogue, 68m long is too small, 150m is too big and ~100m is juuuust right.

-Sean

[Gandalf]

Why the hell would a Jem'Hadar attack ship have windows? The Jemmies wouldn't care, and the Vorta have the funky eyepiece. Could it be some sort of running light? So the Vorta can identify it quicker?

[seanrobertson]

Why the hell would a Jem'Hadar attack ship have windows? The Jemmies wouldn't care, and the Vorta have the funky eyepiece. Could it be some sort of running light? So the Vorta can identify it quicker?

I dunno. If you could avoid windows on a warship, that'd only make it tougher anyway.

I will say that if they are running lights, there'd be an awful lot of them:
http://www.gilsostartrekschematics.co.u ... attack.jpg

Aside from the sheer no. of lights we see, there's some reason to think they are windows. But that's okay...so long as someone doesn't blow off visuals to go about their window scaling method, I'm cool.