What if Federation never held back.

[Dark Primus]

Strange thing is they do use money in TOS era but Picard says they don't use money in the TNG era.
Something must have happened in between, but there are some minor indications the Feds do use money.

[Crazedwraith]

Strange thing is they do use money in TOS era but Picard says they don't use money in the TNG era.
Something must have happened in between, but there are some minor indications the Feds do use money.

Kirk says they don't have money in ST:TVH

[Kamakazie Sith]

Strange thing is they do use money in TOS era but Picard says they don't use money in the TNG era.
Something must have happened in between, but there are some minor indications the Feds do use money.

Kirk says they don't have money in ST:TVH

It seems he may have been talking about good ole George Washington and company.

[Stravo]

Hmm. All transport owned by the government, no money, and the computer lab's closing so I'll have to finish tomorrow.

Hmm....sounds like some noob read Wong's interpretation of the Federation in TNG era as COmmunist and decided to start thinking all of Trek was Communist, culminating this piss poor cut and paste from Mike's arguments. If you go accepting other people's ideas as your own try to read the fine print about what it pertains to TNG ERA TREK and NOT TOS.

[Stravo]

There's also something to be said for the openess and freedom of Federation society that allows for the creativity that gives the Federation the technical edge it has. A more dictatorial regime could have led to a more Cardasian or Romulan tech level. I think the message being sent in TOS and onward is that the reason why the Federation was so powerful and technically adept was because they were the society that they were.

Nice try at sidetracking the thread.

The original post does not depict them as a dictatorial regime.

The original post was not asking what they would look like as a dictatorial regime, but as a regime which wasnt near toothless.

And in doing so abandoning key Federation ideals.

[NecronLord]

Kirk says they don't have money in ST:TVH

I assume that he's talking about coins and notes in that film, as in ST:3, Bones plans to hire a starship, and in ST6 Scotty buys a boat.

[Lord Pounder]

My guess was that by the time of TOS the federation had abandoned hard currency, no notes or coins, and that every thing was done via credit transfer. By the time of things have gone further and there is no need even for this because every one has anything they need via replicators etc and humanity has accepted that greed makes an unstable society.

[Natorgator]

Well, there was a novel about this wherein the E-D was taken into an evil parallel universe where the Federation had done just that. I forget the title. But the Evil Enterprise D (hereafter called the EE-D ) had a faster warp engine, a cloak (they had refused treaty and stomped the Romulans all the way back to Romulus and made them vassals), weapons arrays in plenty and powerful enough that I speculate that they could have done a BDZ (note: speculation, no need to tear my head off), every crew member walked around armed at all times with big knives and ridiculously powerful phasers without a stun setting, and so on and so forth. They were looking to invade the ST universe as seen in the series and take over. Could have done it easy; I think the EE-D would be able to stand up to a Sovereign class and win.

Like I said, I don't remember the title. But if you can track down the book, it might help you.

I believe it was "Dark Mirror". Damn good book, too.

[Crazedwraith]

<snip>.

I believe it was "Dark Mirror". Damn good book, too.

Twas indeed Dark mirror but i never got past half way through that book.
I did like the fact the combadges were actually agonisers though.
Imagine im picard haddened discoved that.

[Durandal]

Well did we see any Fed ships in the TNG era that could be called a warship?

You mean like the Defiant, or all the other ships fighting in the war? Just because the Federation incompetently designs their warships does not mean that they are holding back; it means they are incompetent. What would you classify as a warship? A Galaxy-Class Starship is actually pretty well-arms, despite being incompetently designed.

Perhaps the Pheonix in "The Wounded" could be called as a warship but since it was carrying a sensor pod instead of the weapon pod on its back I wonder.

What evidence do you have that that sensor pod wasn't a necessity?

But I am talking about having enough ships to protect all of their important systems, which they didn't have in the Dominion war.

Which indicates a poor industrial base. Are we to assume that every country which can't field enough warships to defend its territories is holding back, rather than simply lacking the industrial base to do so?

Yes but not enough ships. Dominion had taken a large bite out of Fed territory till they started to get beaten back by the Romulans.

See above.

No the same Federation but different attitude to their enemies.

That would make it a completely different organization. How feasible would a massive ramp-up in their military programs be? We literally have no idea how resources are divided in the Federation. Such a ramp-up could easily lead to social unrest, as resources would have to be diverted away from things like the "Keeping Earth Pretty" department.

In what way? I want to see a different possible scenario on how the Feds would handle different type of crises.

You're asking how an organization would have handled a given situation if we completely change its basic philosophies. That's like asking, "Well what if the Empire wasn't a dictatorial regime with a massive military budget?" Who cares? Then it's not the Empire.

You haven't shown that the Federation "held back" in any way. Indeed, there are lots of technological developments that show that contrary. During the Dominion War, they developed quantum torpedoes and the Defiant. They also enhanced their shields to resist the Dominion's weapons.

They also had higher-ups in the Federation supporting Section 31 and its biological weapons program against the Founders. While not officially sanctioned by the Federation, it should give us some idea of what they could do without the political red tape to go through. Basically, Section 31 engineered biological weapons and not much else.

So, either show that the Federation did, in fact, have the designs for superior warships and weapons in-hand, along with the industrial base to field them in a reasonable amount of time, but didn't due to purely political reasons, or just concede.

[Stormbringer]

There's also something to be said for the openess and freedom of Federation society that allows for the creativity that gives the Federation the technical edge it has. A more dictatorial regime could have led to a more Cardasian or Romulan tech level. I think the message being sent in TOS and onward is that the reason why the Federation was so powerful and technically adept was because they were the society that they were.

Nice try at sidetracking the thread.

The original post does not depict them as a dictatorial regime.

The original post was not asking what they would look like as a dictatorial regime, but as a regime which wasnt near toothless.

And in doing so abandoning key Federation ideals.

And how is it against Federation ideals to be willing to protect them as they did in the TOS period? There's a major difference between a dictatorial regime and free nation that's capable of defending itself.

It's pretty obvious that the Federation in the TNG era is unwilling and unable to protect it's citizens and interests. Would the TOS era Starfleet have denied the fact that they were at least partially military officers or ignored the fact that one of their missions was to defend the Federation? Do you think the TOS Federation would have sold out it's citizens like the Feddies did the Maquis? Would the TOS UFP have been so unprepared for the Dominion War? It's obvious from the Federation's history that they've become so afraid of war that they're willing to compromise their vaunted ideal lest they be forced to fight for them.

It's fair question ask what would happen if the Federation had continued in the manner of the TOS era.

[Darth Wong]

It's pretty obvious that the Federation in the TNG era is unwilling and unable to protect it's citizens and interests.

It's the "unable" part which is relevant here. If they can't do it, then they're not "holding back", are they?

Would the TOS era Starfleet have denied the fact that they were at least partially military officers or ignored the fact that one of their missions was to defend the Federation?

Probably not, but that bullshit went by the wayside by the time the Dominion War started, and it's not as if they immediately became unstoppable.

Do you think the TOS Federation would have sold out it's citizens like the Feddies did the Maquis?

Possibly. "Realpolitik" is not based on principle; it is based on expedience.

Would the TOS UFP have been so unprepared for the Dominion War? It's obvious from the Federation's history that they've become so afraid of war that they're willing to compromise their vaunted ideal lest they be forced to fight for them.

Alternatively, they found that they had better luck expanding their territory by offering a superior standard of living than they did through military operations and subterfuge, hence the TNG-era approach. Continuing on a war footing would have changed the entire nature of the quadrant, as the Klingons and Romulans behave completely differently.

It's fair question ask what would happen if the Federation had continued in the manner of the TOS era.

Not in a vacuum; if the Federation had continued in the manner of the TOS era, the Klingons and Romulans and everyone else in the quadrant would have behaved differently as well. How do we know the Federation wouldn't have suffered debilitating losses against, say, the Zalkonians as a result of aggressive expansionism? You can't rewrite one thread in the tapestry of a history in isolation.

I agree that they went too far, but assuming that nothing else would have changed for the worse if we rewrite their history to make them more militaristic is simply absurd.

[Stravo]

Nice try at sidetracking the thread.

The original post does not depict them as a dictatorial regime.

The original post was not asking what they would look like as a dictatorial regime, but as a regime which wasnt near toothless.

And in doing so abandoning key Federation ideals.

And how is it against Federation ideals to be willing to protect them as they did in the TOS period? There's a major difference between a dictatorial regime and free nation that's capable of defending itself.

It's pretty obvious that the Federation in the TNG era is unwilling and unable to protect it's citizens and interests. Would the TOS era Starfleet have denied the fact that they were at least partially military officers or ignored the fact that one of their missions was to defend the Federation? Do you think the TOS Federation would have sold out it's citizens like the Feddies did the Maquis? Would the TOS UFP have been so unprepared for the Dominion War? It's obvious from the Federation's history that they've become so afraid of war that they're willing to compromise their vaunted ideal lest they be forced to fight for them.

It's fair question ask what would happen if the Federation had continued in the manner of the TOS era.

Who said that was the question? Don't rewrite what the original poster said:

What if throughout Federation history they never held back their forces in times of war and made constant research in new weapons and defences, and had more than enough warships to protect their space and still have plenty of ships in reservs.
Think of the politicans who rules the Feds are like current Bush administration.

Empahsis mine. He did not say: "Like TOS Trek." He is saying that throughout Federation history they have 'held back' At no time was the TOS era held up as the shining example.

So I say that if you want the Federation to be as ruthless and militaristic as her neighbors then you no longer have the Federation. What you have is a regime vastly different than the Federation. Its the mirror universe Feds.

[Dark Primus]

You mean like the Defiant, or all the other ships fighting in the war?

Yes something like that.

Just because the Federation incompetently designs their warships does not mean that they are holding back; it means they are incompetent. What would you classify as a warship? A Galaxy-Class Starship is actually pretty well-arms, despite being incompetently designed.

Let just say for the moment if the Feds had putted more resources in research into weapons and defenses very early on in its history so new weapons such as quantum torpedoes, pulse phasers, regenerative shielding etc becomes available to use if a military crises shows up but still locked away just waiting to be used when a military crises shows up.

What if when the Borg first showed up, gave the Federation less than a year to prepear them for the unvoidable conflict with the Borg, but this time instead of being ill prepeared to handle the conflict they have new weapons and new defenses to deal with the threat.

- New technology available
- Borg shows up
- Feds have one year to prepear for war
- Starfleet recives the new weapons
- Borg arrives
- One heck of a party

What evidence do you have that that sensor pod wasn't a necessity?

Necessity for what? Their current mission? No clue to be honest.

Which indicates a poor industrial base. Are we to assume that every country which can't field enough warships to defend its territories is holding back, rather than simply lacking the industrial base to do so?

Well even the Galactic Empire could not defend all its systems against the rebels constant raids and attacks despite they had roughly 10 million ships or so. You do have a point there.

That would make it a completely different organization. How feasible would a massive ramp-up in their military programs be? We literally have no idea how resources are divided in the Federation. Such a ramp-up could easily lead to social unrest, as resources would have to be diverted away from things like the "Keeping Earth Pretty" department.

True.

You haven't shown that the Federation "held back" in any way. Indeed, there are lots of technological developments that show that contrary. During the Dominion War, they developed quantum torpedoes and the Defiant. They also enhanced their shields to resist the Dominion's weapons.

I believe many of the weapons mentioned above could have come into services earlier if the Feds could had made more research in weapons technology.

So, either show that the Federation did, in fact, have the designs for superior warships and weapons in-hand, along with the industrial base to field them in a reasonable amount of time, but didn't due to purely political reasons, or just concede.

I concede, I don't have any evidence whats so ever on that. But from what Federation has developed the last decade and compare that to the end of TOS era to the early TNG era, very little weapon progress has come through those 80 years.

[Stormbringer]

It's the "unable" part which is relevant here. If they can't do it, then they're not "holding back", are they?

No, but it's pretty clear that the unable part is the result of a fundamental unwillingness to actually commit to their own defense. It's like the US losing WW2 because they refuse to build any ships.

Probably not, but that bullshit went by the wayside by the time the Dominion War started, and it's not as if they immediately became unstoppable.

Of course they didn't, because most probably no idea at all how to actually fight a war.

Possibly. "Realpolitik" is not based on principle; it is based on expedience.

True, but the TOS Federation was not necessarily a "realpoltik" state. They did engage in it at times but certainly not to the point of abandoning their principles, not even close.

And they certainly wouldn't have abandoned them to an enemy they could have beaten fairly easily.

Alternatively, they found that they had better luck expanding their territory by offering a superior standard of living than they did through military operations and subterfuge, hence the TNG-era approach. Continuing on a war footing would have changed the entire nature of the quadrant, as the Klingons and Romulans behave completely differently.

It's obvious they changed from a Cold War manning levels to a more peace oriented force. But the difference is far greater than just ending a long Cold War. Look at the US Navy after the Cold War, it was cut back heavily but not to the degree of turning carriers into cruise ships or forgetting it's a military organization.

Not in a vacuum; if the Federation had continued in the manner of the TOS era, the Klingons and Romulans and everyone else in the quadrant would have behaved differently as well. How do we know the Federation wouldn't have suffered debilitating losses against, say, the Zalkonians as a result of aggressive expansionism? You can't rewrite one thread in the tapestry of a history in isolation.

Of course it's a big what if. But that's doesn't mean we can't speculate.

I agree that they went too far, but assuming that nothing else would have changed for the worse if we rewrite their history to make them more militaristic is simply absurd.

Of course it is and I don't agree with fan wankers that think that everything would go right or remain the same except for a super-federation.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

What if throughout Federation history they never held back their forces in times of war and made constant research in new weapons and defences,

Hello? Quantum Torpedoes? Pulse phasers? Shields resisting Dominion weapons?

and had more than enough warships to protect their space and still have plenty of ships in reservs.

Did you consider that this is an industrial limitation and they don't 'hold back forces in times of war' because they don't exist?

Think of the politicans who rules the Feds are like current Bush administration.

I thought you wanted to improve the Federation.

[Stormbringer]

Who said that was the question? Don't rewrite what the original poster said:

What if throughout Federation history they never held back their forces in times of war and made constant research in new weapons and defences, and had more than enough warships to protect their space and still have plenty of ships in reservs.
Think of the politicans who rules the Feds are like current Bush administration.

Empahsis mine. He did not say: "Like TOS Trek." He is saying that throughout Federation history they have 'held back' At no time was the TOS era held up as the shining example.

So I say that if you want the Federation to be as ruthless and militaristic as her neighbors then you no longer have the Federation. What you have is a regime vastly different than the Federation. Its the mirror universe Feds.

But neither does it autmatically mean a police state. It means not holding back in foriegn policy, protecting Federation interests with force if necessary and possible, and continually developing the military (and specifically along political lines of the current US). That doesn't necessitate a militant dictatorship.

[Durandal]

Yes something like that.

So you admit that the Federation did, in fact, develop new weapons to combat the Dominion?

Let just say for the moment if the Feds had putted more resources in research into weapons and defenses very early on in its history so new weapons such as quantum torpedoes, pulse phasers, regenerative shielding etc becomes available to use if a military crises shows up but still locked away just waiting to be used when a military crises shows up.

You're asserting that they actually had the technological capacity to build those things during that era. That's like saying, "Suppose the US put more resources into building an atomic bomb during the 1800's." It makes no sense.

What if when the Borg first showed up, gave the Federation less than a year to prepear them for the unvoidable conflict with the Borg, but this time instead of being ill prepeared to handle the conflict they have new weapons and new defenses to deal with the threat.

- New technology available
- Borg shows up
- Feds have one year to prepear for war
- fed fleet recives the new weapons
- Borg arrives
- One heck of a party

It just another way of to say "What if Federation never held back"

Wait ... what? So the Borg show up and say, "You have one year to prepare for our imminent invasion"? The Borg are stupid, but Christ, they're not that stupid. If you're referring to a scenario where the Federation ramps up military production right after BoBW, I thought that's what they did. They lost a good portion of their fleet, after all, and had to rebuild it.

Furthermore, it's obvious that Federation weapons effectiveness against the Borg drastically increased after BoBW due partially to military advances in the Dominion War. Remember ST:FC? The Borg Cube was getting the shit kicked out of it, and it wasn't repairing itself.

Necessity for what? Their current mission? No clue to be honest.

For the ship's operation. If you're going to propose replacing an entire sensor array with weapons, you'd better be ready to prove that that sensor array wasn't necessary for the ship to function.

Well even the Galactic Empire could not defend all its systems against the rebels constant raids and attacks despite they had roughly 10 million ships or so.

So what? The inability of one massive organization to defend every single planet in its domain simultaneously does not translate to the ability of another organization to spew out warships at the rates you'd like to see.

I believe many of the weapons mentioned above could have come into services earlier if the Feds could had made more research in weapons technology.

A completely unsubstantiated belief.

I concede, I don't have any evidence whats so ever.

Concession accepted.

[Dark Primus]

Hello? Quantum Torpedoes? Pulse phasers? Shields resisting Dominion weapons?

Yes yes I know that. But look in between TOS and TNG thats almost 80 years gap, and we have seen very little advancements in weapons tech through that time.

Did you consider that this is an industrial limitation and they don't 'hold back forces in times of war' because they don't exist?

Well many ships the Feds took to the frontlines in the Dominion war were old ships like Miranda and Excelsiors. Not all fleets were put to protect vital outposts or to counter the Dominion taskforces, but some stayed behind to protect member worlds.

I thought you wanted to improve the Federation.

Well technological improve, in a way.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Yes yes I know that. But look in between TOS and TNG thats almost 80 years gap, and we have seen very little advancements in weapons tech through that time.

Other than the fact that any TNG+ ship can kick the shit out of any ship in TOS era? Hell, between Archer's era and Tos we see no new weapons tech.

Well many ships the Feds took to the frontlines in the Dominion war were old ships like Miranda and Excelsiors.

How exactly does this prove anything other then the Federation can't replace all its ships with new ones (in other words, a industrial limitation)

Not all fleets were put to protect vital outposts or to counter the Dominion taskforces, but some stayed behind to protect member worlds.

That's because the Dominion was fucking attacking member worlds. Where the fuck do you think the Federation's main shipyards are, open space?

[Dark Primus]

So you admit that the Federation did, in fact, develop new weapons to combat the Dominion?

Yes. I didn't deny that.

You're asserting that they actually had the technological capacity to build those things during that era. That's like saying, "Suppose the US put more resources into building an atomic bomb during the 1800's." It makes no sense.

But developing quantum torpedoes, pulse phasers etc might have come few decades earlier if the Feds were willing to commit the resources to do so. We don't se much happening between the 80 years gap between TOS and TNG. What is the difference between a quantum torpedo and a photon torpedo?
The quantum torpedo has just a bigger yeild (From what I have been told). I mean I doubt it could have taken many years to develop it. But then I don't know much about that.

For the ship's operation. If you're going to propose replacing an entire sensor array with weapons, you'd better be ready to prove that that sensor array wasn't necessary for the ship to function.

Well in this scenario it would never have a sensor pod in the first place, but being built as a warship from scrath.

So what? The inability of one massive organization to defend every single planet in its domain simultaneously does not translate to the ability of another organization to spew out warships at the rates you'd like to see.

I just speculate, nothing more.

A completely unsubstantiated belief.

Yes it is.

[Dark Primus]

Other than the fact that any TNG+ ship can kick the shit out of any ship in TOS era? Hell, between Archer's era and Tos we see no new weapons tech.

The phasers and torpedoes are stronger in yeilds, shields are stronger. But that isn't much difference. But then again there are also technologial achivements that has been made in other areas not just in weapons.

How exactly does this prove anything other then the Federation can't replace all its ships with new ones (in other words, a industrial limitation)

The Feds were forced to use the old mothballed ships and bring them into service. While the Feds warmachine isn't as strong as it should be and when loosing ships faster they could replace them means they would have to win on the technologial edge instead, making their ships stronger.

That's because the Dominion was fucking attacking member worlds. Where the fuck do you think the Federation's main shipyards are, open space?

I know that.
Earth was threaten, and I think Andor was threaten to be attacked when Dominion forces took control over Betazed, and both planets has vital shipyard facilities nessesary for the war efforts.

[Uraniun235]

Kirk says they don't have money in ST:TVH

I assume that he's talking about coins and notes in that film, as in ST:3, Bones plans to hire a starship, and in ST6 Scotty buys a boat.

Plus, even if they did have hard currency, it's not like it would be accepted in the 20th century.

[Durandal]

But developing quantum torpedoes, pulse phasers etc might have come few decades earlier if the Feds were willing to commit the resources to do so. We don't se much happening between the 80 years gap between TOS and TNG.

Yes, they might have, but you don't know that, nor can you prove it. Now do you see why I said that this was a pointless question? All you and the other Trekkies are doing is speculating and saying, "Well if I was in charge ..."

What is the difference between a quantum torpedo and a photon torpedo?

Speaking observationally, quantum torpedoes are blue, and photon torpedoes are red. We don't know what the difference is, but it's safe to assume that they're probably more powerful, though the lack of their wide deployment (we see ships in ST:FC and DS9 still using photon torpedoes) suggests that they may either be expensive to manufacture or may have some drawbacks.

The quantum torpedo has just a bigger yeild (From what I have been told). I mean I doubt it could have taken many years to develop it. But then I don't know much about that.

If a quantum torpedo was simply a photon torpedo with a bigger bang, it would be a photon torpedo. Do all ICBM's carry the same payload? Do you expect us to believe that photon torpedoes in the TOS era have the same yield as the ones in the TNG era?

Well in this scenario it would never have a sensor pod in the first place, but being built as a warship from scrath.

You're changing your tune. First, it's, "What if the Phoenix didn't have a sensor pod and had weapons in its place?" and now it's, "Well what if the Phoenix was completely redesigned?" Would you just come out and say what's really on your mind, being, "What if the Federation had the same military production drive as the Empire?"

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Other than the fact that any TNG+ ship can kick the shit out of any ship in TOS era? Hell, between Archer's era and Tos we see no new weapons tech.

The phasers and torpedoes are stronger in yeilds, shields are stronger. But that isn't much difference. But then again there are also technologial achivements that has been made in other areas not just in weapons.

In other words, TOS-TNG tech advancement is pretty similar to ENT-TOS.

The Feds were forced to use the old mothballed ships and bring them into service. While the Feds warmachine isn't as strong as it should be

In other words, you have no proof at all.

I know that.
Earth was threaten, and I think Andor was threaten to be attacked when Dominion forces took control over Betazed, and both planets has vital shipyard facilities nessesary for the war efforts.

In other words, they weren't holding back but protecting strategic targets.