Intrepid Class vs US Navy

[Kuja]

the fact remains the USN can't hit spacecraft.

Err, they can hit AIRCRAFT, and the Intrepid can fly in atmosphere, remember?

he said:

"Anyway, the entire US Navy assembles in the Pacific somewhere, Voyager flies towards them and attacks. "

Doesn't necessarily mean the VOY is in atmosphere. It can start at an altitude of 800,000km and be flying towards them.

[MKSheppard]

Even if Voyager was in the atmosphere, and the Ohio tried air-bursting a nuke, they'd knock out all their electronics with the resulting EM pulse. Not a very smart maneuver.

Virtually all military hardware is hardened against EMP. Why do you think
it costs so damn much?

And by the way, all Voyager would have to do is heat the water with their phasers and send a few torpedoes in there as well. They don't even have to directly hit the ships, just the general area around them.

Problem is the later USN ships are actually physically nuke-hardened,
and were designed to be fought in a nuclear exchange with
radioactive water raining down on them

[Darth Wong]

Even if Voyager was in the atmosphere, and the Ohio tried air-bursting a nuke, they'd knock out all their electronics with the resulting EM pulse. Not a very smart maneuver.

True (depending on how close the detonation is and how effective the electronics hardening is), but if they're getting their asses kicked and it's technically possible (or they had been prepared for this eventuality), they'd probably do it anyway because it would be worth it. The energy distribution of a nuclear airburst is much different than a nuclear detonation in space, and the shockwave would probably slam the Voyager hard enough to kill its shielding, heavily damage the vessel, and knock it out of the air.

The only question is whether Voyager is actually in range. As Shep pointed out, the scenario has Voyager flying right toward them, but for all we know, they're still outside the atmosphere.

[Kuja]

What if the Voyager were to approach rapidly, park itself right in the middle of the fleet and start blasting away? Apparently Shep thinks that the USN's first response would be a barrage of nukes.

[Kuja]

BTW, if Shep gets the leeway he wants and every USN ship ever built is involved in this conflict, won't launching nukes effectively annihilate any ship that hasn't been "nuke-hardened"?

[Durandal]

Virtually all military hardware is hardened against EMP. Why do you think it costs so damn much?

It's hardened against traditional EMP, not the massive pulse a nuclear blast in very close proximity (which is where it'd have to be if they had any hope of scoring a hit) would release.

Problem is the later USN ships are actually physically nuke-hardened, and were designed to be fought in a nuclear exchange with radioactive water raining down on them

I wasn't referring to radioactive water. Water serves as an insulator for radiation. I was referring to the fact that Voyager could boil the ships' crews to death. They could also throw up massive waves by detonating a photon torpedo in the water and capsize the ships.

Also, if this is the entire US navy, won't there be aircraft carriers? Well wait, nevermind. Navy planes, to my knowledge, can't be outfitted with nuclear ordnance, or can they?

[Durandal]

True (depending on how close the detonation is and how effective the electronics hardening is), but if they're getting their asses kicked and it's technically possible (or they had been prepared for this eventuality), they'd probably do it anyway because it would be worth it. The energy distribution of a nuclear airburst is much different than a nuclear detonation in space, and the shockwave would probably slam the Voyager hard enough to kill its shielding, heavily damage the vessel, and knock it out of the air.

That's probably true. We've seen Federation vessels get knocked around by far, far less. Realistically though, they'd almost have to detonate it in close proximity to have any chance of scoring a hit.

[MKSheppard]

It's hardened against traditional EMP, not the massive pulse a nuclear blast in very close proximity (which is where it'd have to be if they had any hope of scoring a hit) would release.

How do you determine "close" proximity? The Soviets loved to use
Nuke-tipped anti ship missiels that would detonate inside US CVBGs
to get rid of them during the cold War, so we had to deal with
close proximity detonations when designing our warships.

Also, if this is the entire US navy, won't there be aircraft carriers? Well wait, nevermind. Navy planes, to my knowledge, can't be outfitted with nuclear ordnance, or can they?

The Force is NOT with this one, master

[Durandal]

How do you determine "close" proximity? The Soviets loved to use Nuke-tipped anti ship missiels that would detonate inside US CVBGs to get rid of them during the cold War, so we had to deal with close proximity detonations when designing our warships.

That's not the same thing as an actual nuclear warhead, genius. Do you honestly think that the resulting EM effects from a nuclear-tipped missile will be the same as a kiloton-level nuclear detonation?

The Force is NOT with this one, master

Oh fuck off. It was an honest question. Even so, I just realized that the F/A-18 can be equipped with nuclear bombs, but what about missiles?

[Sea Skimmer]

It's hardened against traditional EMP, not the massive pulse a nuclear blast in very close proximity (which is where it'd have to be if they had any hope of scoring a hit) would release.

WTF are you defining as "traditional" EMP? A low altitude nuclear explosion produces very little in the way EMP, anything that would be significantly affected would also be smashed by the overpressure, and warships are protected against high altitude bursts which the Soviest where expected to use in action. Course a high altitude explosion isn't in "very close" proximity.

I wasn't referring to radioactive water. Water serves as an insulator for radiation. I was referring to the fact that Voyager could boil the ships' crews to death. They could also throw up massive waves by detonating a photon torpedo in the water and capsize the ships.

Major waves require energy releases far beyond what a photo torpedo will give you.

Also, if this is the entire US navy, won't there be aircraft carriers? Well wait, nevermind. Navy planes, to my knowledge, can't be outfitted with nuclear ordnance, or can they?

Basically everything combat the USN has flown since the 1950's can carry nuclear weapons. There where also nuclear 16 inch shells and a vast array of nuclear warhead armed SAM's, along with nuclear torpedos.

[MKSheppard]

[
That's not the same thing as an actual nuclear warhead, genius. Do you honestly think that the resulting EM effects from a nuclear-tipped missile will be the same as a kiloton-level nuclear detonation?

Damien, a nuclear tipped missile carries a 1kt or higher warhead, which
is essentially a nuke too, same effects

[Sea Skimmer]

That's not the same thing as an actual nuclear warhead, genius. Do you honestly think that the resulting EM effects from a nuclear-tipped missile will be the same as a kiloton-level nuclear detonation?

Do you know nothing? Wel lclearly that is the case. Refering to a weapon as being "nuclear tipped" means it has a nuclear warhead, you know the things that explode with kiloton, or often in the case of Soviet anti shipping weapons multi megaton nuclear explosions. What the fuck else did you think it would be if not an nuclear warhead anyway?

Oh fuck off. It was an honest question. Even so, I just realized that the F/A-18 can be equipped with nuclear bombs, but what about missiles?

The Hornet only used gravity bombs.

[RedImperator]

The Intrepid doesn't have to fly towards anything. It can sit just outside SLBM range above the fleet and pick off USN targets with its phasers. The ships are just too big and move too slow to be a challenge even for Starfleet targeting.

[Crayz9000]

Where's Marina's Zentraedi submarine/carrier/battleship when you need it?

[TurboPhaser]

Hmm, 38 replies in 3 hours- not too shabby.

I apologise for not being more specific in my scenario description, it seems to have created some friction. I'll update my original post with this:

The Intrepid class ship IS in the atmosphere, for this to be a battle, both parties have to actually hit each other. The Intrepid class begins attacking at 3 KM. The US Navy fleet is as it is in 2003.

Yes, ALL Navy vessels. Including Aircraft carriers and their aircraft.

I've done a bit of digging and found some rather puzzling info on Voyager's shield capabilities.

Episode 'Blink of an eye': Voyager's shields begin to buckle under KT (possibly less) Anti-matter explosions launched from a planet they were orbiting.

Episode 'Night': Voyager's sheilds have trouble with more KT like explosions. (The Malon Garbage ship's Spacial Charges)

Episode 'Think Tank' : Voyager's sheilds hold against a planet exploding directly in their face. Where as in 'Scorpion', 2 Borg Cubes were destroyed by a planet exploding. You'd think the Borg would have superior shields.

Rather contradictory info, is it not?

[Chris OFarrell]

Hmm, 38 replies in 3 hours- not too shabby.

I apologise for not being more specific in my scenario description, it seems to have created some friction. I'll update my original post with this:

The Intrepid class ship IS in the atmosphere, for this to be a battle, both parties have to actually hit each other. The Intrepid class begins attacking at 3 KM. The US Navy fleet is as it is in 2003.

Yes, ALL Navy vessels. Including Aircraft carriers and their aircraft.

I've done a bit of digging and found some rather puzzling info on Voyager's shield capabilities.

Episode 'Blink of an eye': Voyager's shields begin to buckle under KT (possibly less) Anti-matter explosions launched from a planet they were orbiting.

Episode 'Night': Voyager's sheilds have trouble with more KT like explosions. (The Malon Garbage ship's Spacial Charges)

Episode 'Think Tank' : Voyager's sheilds hold against a planet exploding directly in their face. Where as in 'Scorpion', 2 Borg Cubes were destroyed by a planet exploding. You'd think the Borg would have superior shields.

Rather contradictory info, is it not?

Only if you want it to be.

In 'Blink of an Eye' what the heck said that the antimatter based weapons
were KT ranged? The antimatter warheads were not even bothering Voyager all that much given the number of hits she took. The Tricobolot weapons were what actually hurt her.

The Malon ships spacial charges never had a yield attributed to them.

The Borg Cubes I don't know if they even had their shields up at the time of the planetary explosion. Their standard MO appeared to be shields down until they've experience a specific threat, then adapt defences.

Think tank is just....weird.

On topic, it should be noted in 'Little Green men' that Quark Nog and Rom flew a Ferangi shuttlepod (read a pissweak little transport) into the heart of a nuclear detonation in the 1950's to cause some technobabble reaction to send them forward in time. But they didn't even worry in the slightest about the explosion itself or its shockwave, they blast right through both. Now I'll grant a nuke detonation in the late 1950's isn't the same thing as a nuke today. But its still a good indicator that a little shuttle didn't even worry about any damage.

And about using Ohio class SLBM's to fire Tridents at Voyager.... Assuming the crew could even reprogram them to do what is required (they couldn't), the missile has no terminal guidance, the sub has no aquisistion gear to track the Voyager, especially if the shields are being used to deflect radar signals. The speed that Voyager can move at means that the only way you could possibly get her would be for her to stand still right above you in a predetermined location, making sure she doesn't try to either shoot down the missile, simply move twenty klicks to the left or kill the sub before she launches.

In short, that is the most idiotic idea I have heard in a long time.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Hmm, 38 replies in 3 hours- not too shabby.

I apologise for not being more specific in my scenario description, it seems to have created some friction. I'll update my original post with this:

The Intrepid class ship IS in the atmosphere, for this to be a battle, both parties have to actually hit each other. The Intrepid class begins attacking at 3 KM. The US Navy fleet is as it is in 2003.

Yes, ALL Navy vessels. Including Aircraft carriers and their aircraft.

I've done a bit of digging and found some rather puzzling info on Voyager's shield capabilities.

Episode 'Blink of an eye': Voyager's shields begin to buckle under KT (possibly less) Anti-matter explosions launched from a planet they were orbiting.

Episode 'Night': Voyager's sheilds have trouble with more KT like explosions. (The Malon Garbage ship's Spacial Charges)

Episode 'Think Tank' : Voyager's sheilds hold against a planet exploding directly in their face. Where as in 'Scorpion', 2 Borg Cubes were destroyed by a planet exploding. You'd think the Borg would have superior shields.

Rather contradictory info, is it not?

Just how did you determine that these explosion are KT level?

[Howedar]

On topic, it should be noted in 'Little Green men' that Quark Nog and Rom flew a Ferangi shuttlepod (read a pissweak little transport) into the heart of a nuclear detonation in the 1950's to cause some technobabble reaction to send them forward in time. But they didn't even worry in the slightest about the explosion itself or its shockwave, they blast right through both. Now I'll grant a nuke detonation in the late 1950's isn't the same thing as a nuke today. But its still a good indicator that a little shuttle didn't even worry about any damage.

A nuke test in the 1950s would more likely than not be bigger than anything the USN could throw at an Intrepid.

[Darth Wong]

In 'Blink of an Eye' what the heck said that the antimatter based weapons were KT ranged? The antimatter warheads were not even bothering Voyager all that much given the number of hits she took. The Tricobolot weapons were what actually hurt her.

What have you been smoking? If you detonate megaton-ranged nuclear devices in low orbit, you will ionize a huge portion of the upper atmosphere and cause a monster EMP. That's one of the reasons that space-based nukes are frowned upon, in case you didn't know. And these people were detonating these things in low orbit above major population centres.

The Malon ships spacial charges never had a yield attributed to them.

Wasn't the Malon ship unshielded and falling apart? How powerful could these charges have been if they were detonated anywhere near it?

The Borg Cubes I don't know if they even had their shields up at the time of the planetary explosion. Their standard MO appeared to be shields down until they've experience a specific threat, then adapt defences.

So you figure the Borg wouldn't raise their shields when a flotilla of S-8472 ships appear after six months of continuous warfare?

Think tank is just....weird.

What exactly happened?

On topic, it should be noted in 'Little Green men' that Quark Nog and Rom flew a Ferangi shuttlepod (read a pissweak little transport) into the heart of a nuclear detonation in the 1950's to cause some technobabble reaction to send them forward in time. But they didn't even worry in the slightest about the explosion itself or its shockwave, they blast right through both. Now I'll grant a nuke detonation in the late 1950's isn't the same thing as a nuke today. But its still a good indicator that a little shuttle didn't even worry about any damage.

Ah, leave it to you to misrepresent a Star Trek episode in hopes that no one will notice. From the screenplay:

ROM: We fly straight into the atomic explosion, expose the kemacite to the beta radiation and engage the warp engines. If we have enough kemacite, we should be able to create a reverse time warp and ride it home.
...
72 EXT. NEVADA DESERT (OPTICAL) - NIGHT: Close on the mushrooming cloud of a nuclear explosion. Hold on it for a second, and then the Ferengi shuttle zooms into screen and plunges into the cloud.

73 INT. FERENGI SHUTTLE (OPTICAL): The Ferengi shuttle is undergoing some serious shaking and stirring.

QUARK: I don't like this.
ODO (concerned): Rom, tell your brother it's going to be all right.
ROM: It's going to be all right, Brother. (qualifying) I hope.

Suddenly, the screen WHITES OUT.
74 EXT. SPACE (OPTICAL): The Earth as seen from space. Suddenly the Ferengi shuttle winks into existence and drifts across the screen, with no engine power.

Nope, they did not fly into the "heart of a nuclear detonation". They flew into the mushroom cloud created after a nuclear detonation, because they just wanted beta radiation from the mushroom cloud to interact with their Kemacite cargo (note that this also means their ship was not shielded against low-penetration particle radiation, and that they must have been in dire need of Trek's magical radiation curative therapy when they got back to DS9).

And about using Ohio class SLBM's to fire Tridents at Voyager.... Assuming the crew could even reprogram them to do what is required (they couldn't), the missile has no terminal guidance, the sub has no aquisistion gear to track the Voyager, especially if the shields are being used to deflect radar signals.

Chris, "deflection" is precisely how radar works. It detects bounces from the target object, remember? Now, while these missiles are not currently designed for this purpose, it seems reasonable to me that they might be for this scenario, where the USN is gathered in one place to confront Voyager and has obviously been preparing.

The speed that Voyager can move at means that the only way you could possibly get her would be for her to stand still right above you in a predetermined location, making sure she doesn't try to either shoot down the missile, simply move twenty klicks to the left or kill the sub before she launches.

What kind of maneuvering speed has Voyager ever demonstrated in atmosphere? Note: crashing and falling like a stone doesn't count. It seems to me that Fed ships handle like pigs in an atmosphere.

In short, that is the most idiotic idea I have heard in a long time.

The only really "idiotic" thing about it, given the scenario, is that it presumes the USN has special guided nuclear airburst missiles.

[Ender]

Warwolves > Redshits, USN victory

[Durandal]

WTF are you defining as "traditional" EMP? A low altitude nuclear explosion produces very little in the way EMP, anything that would be significantly affected would also be smashed by the overpressure, and warships are protected against high altitude bursts which the Soviest where expected to use in action. Course a high altitude explosion isn't in "very close" proximity.

Low-altitude bursts produce a source-region electromagnetic pulse (SREMP), which can be far more dangerous to military hardware than a HEMP due to the greater electric and magnetic fields produced within about 6 to 8 km of ground zero. From what I've read, the only things which were considered to be needed to be hardened against SREMP were missile launch stations. More information here.

Major waves require energy releases far beyond what a photo torpedo will give you.

That depends on what figure you're using. I seem to remember settling on something like a few hundred kilotons. That would certainly produce major waves.

[Howedar]

Think tank is just....weird.

What exactly happened?

There's a giant thread at SB.com about it if you're interested. Suffice to say "Think Tank" is wildly inconsistant, perhaps more so than TDiC.

[Ender]

Think tank is just....weird.

What exactly happened?

There's a giant thread at SB.com about it if you're interested. Suffice to say "Think Tank" is wildly inconsistant, perhaps more so than TDiC.

Link please?

[Demiurge]

Link please?

Allow me.

[Sea Skimmer]

Low-altitude bursts produce a source-region electromagnetic pulse (SREMP), which can be far more dangerous to military hardware than a HEMP due to the greater electric and magnetic fields produced within about 6 to 8 km of ground zero. From what I've read, the only things which were considered to be needed to be hardened against SREMP were missile launch stations. More information here.

FAS is a reliable source of information since never. Browsing their WMD sections especially is a waste of time. But anyway, what that article says is exactly what I did, the only things at risk have bigger problems in the form of the blast wave and heat pulse.

That depends on what figure you're using. I seem to remember settling on something like a few hundred kilotons. That would certainly produce major waves.

Maybe over a small radius, however you need a very big wave to knock over a major warship, fleets have steamed through typhoons many times and the only vessels which have been lost in them in the past century weighed less then a modern frigate and where very low on fuel.